Average working life of a car?

[CortinaDave]

Struck me today that there wasn't much on the road at all older than my M reg Probe.. I don't consider it to be a particularly old car, but in terms of seeing large numbers of cars of a particular year in one day, M reg seems about as old as you go.In my 20 minute drive to work today I only saw two cars that were older.. so is 13-14 years old "life expired" for a car?

[Milford Cubicle]

I'd say so, it's about the time when the cost of repairs or MOT tests outweigh the value of the car.

[r.welfare]

Think a lot of it depends on location and other demographics - think about how many old-giffer 25yr old stuff keeps appearing on the Bay...Realistically though, from a daily-use perspective I'd agree with you. My L-reg Pugs are usually the oldest cars on the road when I drive them, and I get treated like an automotive leper by other road users. What drives this? Well, cheap credit (up to recently ) and desirability for certain; a lack of knowledge of basic mechanics on the part of most road users; longer service intervals, proliferation of electronics, and a lot of folk just not servicing the car at all, I think, leads to most trips to the scrapper - rust is no longer the no.1 "killer", but some modern stuff (stand up, Ford Ka!) can still rot with the best of 'em...plus the price of scrap at the moment has to be a factor, of course. Perhaps it's also ANPR and other police crackdowns getting untaxed, unMOT'd and uninsured stuff (which is usually - but not always - older) off the roads?Volvo used to trumpet in their press ads that the average life of their cars was 21.7 years, against 14 years for the rest of the industry (and this was back in the late 80s)...I'd be very interested to hear the current DVLA statistic, if it is freely available.

[mk2_craig]

Volvo used to trumpet in their press ads that the average life of their cars was 21.7 years, against 14 years for the rest of the industry (and this was back in the late 80s)

Interesting if true. I wonder how that was worked out, whether it takes into account accident/fire/flood victims scrapped young, for example

[Cavcraft]

I remember that Volvo ad. Good question that you posed CortinaDave, I reckon about 1993 is the oldest round here on average. Mechanical incompetatnce, high scrap prices, easy finance etc as mentioned are the killers.I think some cars fare better than others purely down to size if that doesn't sound too mad. A fair few small cars get snotted round by da boi raycer massiv, luxobarges seem to attract two owners with money to fix and a succession of skint dreamers, and medium-ish size cars perhaps fare better in the hands of the average desperately slow driver like me! My little Chevette is the oldest I've seen in recent trips out by a long way.

[Timewaster]

When I ask customers how old their car is (work in a spares place) they say - Ooh, its really old - its a 2001!I've got 2 J's and an M.There are still a lot of old stuff around here - I pass a daily use moggie minor every day, but generally about 12 - 14 years seems to frag time for most things.

[Milford Cubicle]

Anything over 3 years old or out of warranty is judged as old I think! Cars seem to be face-lifted every week these days, and gutter motoring magazines judge anything over a year old to be 'dated', which must age cars in some people's eyes.

[CortinaDave]

I had a W reg last year and i felt like it was a brand new car compared to my usual motoring selections! Newest car I've ever had.It was really strange as it also seemed to carry a certain amount of acceptablity amongst the neighbours... naturally that won't do at all so I'm back in old stuff again.Its very strange that 14 seems to be the end of the road for the majority.. there's no rule as such but you still see a lot of M reg motors and a hell of a lot less L reg cars. What is it about that particular age?having said that 14 years is probably a fair bit longer than cars of the 70's lasted on average.a Marina/Cortina etc would be rusted to buggery after a decade or so.

[vaultsman]

Pretty sure a 95 Rover 416 hatch daily driver with 95K qualifies as shite but after a head swap and getting its arse end put back into shape with the help of a JCB in 2000 (write-off & buy back - lovely!)...the old viking keeps drawing envious glances. OK..OK..maybe I'm misreading other driver's facial expressions..and lip-reading's never been a particularly strong point. Most recent ticket in May..but if CortinaDave's right about the Law Of 14 Years (and I strongly suspect he may be) it'll be replaced on the drive in around 9 months.

[AnthonyG]

IIRC the average life of a car is around 13-14 years - so that would be 1994-5. In West Wales, where the average income is quite low, 1990s cars are still very common, a V reg Mondeo is not particularly regarded as being that old. Mind you, I do hang around people who are into old cars!Having said that, in my walk to the tube in Ealing, I would see 1980s cars driving around regularly - VWs, BMWs, Mercs, Volvos, Saabs, and plenty of Japanese stuff. There was also plenty of early 90s 'ordinary' cars such as Fords as well.It all depends on the attitude of the owner - someone I know will spend £100-150 every year to get their very shabby K reg Primera through the MOT, on the grounds of 'the devil you know'.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

It depends on what sort of car it is. If it's a BMW or Merc, then you'll quite regulary see plenty of H and J plate stuff knocking about. By the same token you see W/X plate Mondeo/Laguna/Vectra stuff in scrapyards.To me, a W plate car is still quite new but then of my four shitters the newest is 1991 and the oldest 1984.On my last scrapyard pillaging mission I found a T and a V plate Alfa 156's, both complete cars. I just shook my head in disbelief that what was a very nice and expensive car has been treated like shit and ended up as junk. What sort of world do we live in for f*cks sake?I'll say one thing for the new post 2001 number plate system; a 51 plate car may well be 7 years old now but it doesn't seem half as old as an X or Y plater.

[pompei]

I guess if those 156 sumps had been allowed to run dry, the cost of a recon engine would be prohibitive. I've lost count of the number of Trader/Ebay/small ads with the magic words "needs attention"

[Timewaster]

I guess if those 156 sumps had been allowed to run dry, the cost of a recon engine would be prohibitive. I've lost count of the number of Trader/Ebay/small ads with the magic words "needs attention"

Cambelts - without question the no.1 reason for a 156 meeting the scrap yard dog.

[Dukestar25]

It's an interesting subject this one...

 

I have a friend at work who reckons only 10% of the UK population actually want an old car.

 

I say he is wrong based on the fact that I keep gettin outbid on 10 year old tat on e-bay (plus everyone on forums like this one who DELIBERATELY go out of their way to stockpile old cars for their own amusement, err... I mean for future generations )

 

Here's another thought for you. With the price of scrap these days and anything post Y-reg going stratospheric on the road tax front, would old cars like these actually 'appreciate in value'? purely because they are easy to get hold of and are a wee bit cheaper to run ( I apologise for my blasphemous remark just then )...

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Well, as that song by The Jam went, 'the public gets what the public wants.The Public watch Big Brother, think Amy Winehouse is talented and think having an 07 plate C180 Merc on the drive of their Barratt house is prestigious.The public, by and large, are by this reckoning a pack of cretins. They'll soon get caught up in a vicous circle of cars which are unfixable scrap after 8 years but they'll be up to their necks in credit after losing 120% of its value in depreciation. And how I will laugh.

[Spottedlaurel]

Here's another thought for you. With the price of scrap these days and anything post Y-reg going stratospheric on the road tax front, would old cars like these actually 'appreciate in value'? purely because they are easy to get hold of and are a wee bit cheaper to run ( I apologise for my blasphemous remark just then )...

Oddly, they were saying much the same thing on Steve Wright t'other afternoon. They were talking about Cortina, Cavalier and Marina, which predictably led to some "old cars are rubbish" inanity but at least the subject was broached and some people out there must be thinking the same as we do.

 

Beyond the early '90s when injection became commonplace and rust prevention improved, are the cars really any better? Saw an ad for Mondeo over the weekend, main thing was that Bluetooth was fitted throughout the range. Err, so?

 

If the value of used cars was a bit higher, and the scrap value lower (and maybe labour rates a bit less too) I'm pretty sure a lot of what is currently disappearing would have many more years left yet. My Camry is happily approaching 200k. At MoT time I would spend up to £400 or so, if need be, getting it through and fit for another year. With the current situation a lot of people wouldn't though, I suspect.

[garethj]

A bloke was telling me about how he's got this great deal from Vauxhall about a lease or something. You pay £200 a month and don't have to worry about maintenance or anything and you get a brand new car He seemed very pleased about it, and lots of things now get budgeted for monthly (mortgage, insurance, TV licence....) so I can see it's pretty straightforward.BUT £200 a month is £2400 a year, which is enough to service a V8 Ferrari Or from our point of view it's enough to secure the whole of the 1982 Talbot range in 6 months Even though I think he's crackers to spend that amount of money on something he'll never own (and a good thing too because depreciation is shocking) I'm glad there's the freedom of choice to do it. Less good is how someone in a "new" car looks down on someone in an old one

[r.welfare]

Ah, Personal Contract Hire. I remember someone at the supermarket I worked at as a kid in '94 or so - when Ford, Vauxhall, Renault etc all started doing this - what a great idea it was; pay your monthly slab and get a new car every 3 years. Even back then, as a 17-year old greebo, I could see you never actually owned the motor.I reckon this is a critical factor. Most folk on these arrangements can afford the monthly repayments but nowt else. This works well (for the health of the cars, anyway) with the manufacturer-backed schemes for the new kit, as the servicing is "free" anyway. But the secondhand Reg Vardy-type stuff (y'know, 0.01p down and £100 a week for the rest of your life, 971% APR) will never get serviced as they won't have the cash, and anyway, if it breaks they can just go back to Reg Vardy and get a minimum £1000 trade-in...meanwhile, the dealer just gets the old one fragged as it's too old to go on the forecourt, auction fees are prohibitive, and they don't want the comeback of a "sold as seen" sale to Joe Public.Sad that in today's green-obsessed society we currently throw away so many motors that are probably fixable. But it's the same with electrical kit - for the price of a couple of hours' ministrations from the TV repairman to resolder your capacitors, you could get a new TV anyway...On the drive home last night (Bristol to Newbury) I saw only three cars older than mine, all G-reg too - a Mk2 Ashtray and two Corollas. The Toyotas looked mint, actually. There's a foxy young thing on my usual drive to work in - get this! - a G-reg Seat Marbella as well...I wonder if the trends we have been talking about have also contributed to the number of newer cars sporting substantial panel damage? Seems to me that folk either can't afford, or can't be arsed, to get it repaired. I got overtaken by a 52-plate 406 HDI wagon yesterday that was so bashed up it looked like it had fallen down the stairs...!

[j-j]

Well folks I rekon you're all being quite generous seeing 13 Y O movers as old. When I was studying Mech. Engineering we were given the comparison between a car and an aeroplane for materials and components cost vs. lifespan and the car was stated as having an 'engineering life' of 8 years. (The plane, 30 years) Doesn't mean that a car shouldn't last more than 8 and it's not a miracle if it does it's just that all the components are specced in plan for 8 years' life. I still think the whole changing a new car every couple of years is bonkerz tho.My CX is 31 so at nearly 4 times its so called engineering life It's doing pretty damn well. The Xantia is 13 so it's just starting to get crappy around about now....

[r.welfare]

I reckon the "design life" of more modern stuff has definitely been reduced as part of the trend to cut costs, weight and stimulate sales of new tin.

[mk2_craig]

I'd like to think you're right about the weight bit but that is one thing that has definitely increased over time as a result of extra safety kit and increasing spec levels (a trend briefly broken by the Citroen AX which I remember reading was promoted as "safer in a collision" on the grounds that it had fewer spot welds... a concept I found tricky to grasp )

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Those spot welds can come flying out in an accident and go straight in your eye..... therefore the fewer the better from a safety point of view.

[carlo]

Can any of you really visualise buying and keeping an 08 plate Mondeo on the road in 2022? It seems to me cars of the era 1985 - 1995 will become some of the most durable vehicles to own and keep when past their prime. None of the corrosion issues associated with anything pre 1980, and very little electronic complexity which affects nearly everything after the mid nineties. Just put my more recent 405 through the MOT - passed without a murmur. So that's a 49,000 mile car with a year's MOT for £400, and if it's any where near as reliable as the other one it'll still be going strong 3 years down the line (when it's 16 years old.)The beauty of good, cheap cars is the satisfaction of bargain motoring with the knowledge of very little depreciation should you have to throw the thing away. I made the mistake of buying Mrs Carlo a late very nice but overpriced 306 diesel last year, and because of the amount I'd spent to buy it I had to spend money on the things which needed doing, i.e. clutch, clutch cable, air con etc. The thing will lose me fortune eventually. It's nowhere near as strong a car as the 405, either.

[r.welfare]

I'd like to think you're right about the weight bit but that is one thing that has definitely increased over time as a result of extra safety kit and increasing spec levels

No, absolutely - but if you loaded, say, a Mk2 Granada 2-litre with all the safety and comfort/convenience equipment found in a new Mondeo, the thing wouldn't be able to move off the driveway The non-safety-critical stuff (by which I mean the electronics, engine and transmission ancillaries and specifically the interior stuff) is constantly being made cheaper and flimsier.Mind you, having spoken with those who are involved with "Tier 1" motor manufacturing (i.e. they supply components direct to the production lines), they are constantly getting beaten up by the manufacturers on an annual basis to reduce unit prices by 20%...

[marinast]

Living in London the average age for a car seems to be around four to five years. I remember years ago when W, X and Y reg cars were on their way out and thinking how strange it would be to see these brand new J/K reg RS1800 Fiestas and Audi 90s all gone.And now they have.I often think many older cars are on the road because the owner likes them, parts are still cheap through scrapyards and cars made after 1990 seem to go on for alot longer anyway. Interestingly models like my 1993 214 are still very common, helped by Rover using common engine/gearboxes for donkeys and helped by the fact that they were well designed and made. Indeed, I still think it would be easier now, AND in ten/fifteen years time to run my Rover over a new Kia or Hyaundai. Imagine trying to find good second hand bits to keep one going on the cheap, because dealer prices will eventually wipe these cars out, just look at mid 1990s Daewoo models. No plentiful supply of cheap secondhand bits and they all vanish, same for many Jap brands too. The 1999 era Corolla is a dying breed right now, when was the last time anyone saw one? Same with Mk1 Mondeos, I see more Rover 600s than Mondeos of the same age, even though they were both introduced around the same time. Why? Becuase Ford charge over £300 for a new (fragile) bumper and then you need it painting (ever wondered why so many Mondeos float about with gaffer tape on their bumpers...)

[bigstraight6]

Still lots of old tat smoking about down here in the Westcountry, not so affluent you see! I see MK1 Mundano's and MK2 Chavalier's everyday, plus plenty of stuff on 'G' and 'H' plates, just about into the last decade! E36 BMW's and Merc 190's still plentiful too. Oh, and many humble Morris 1000's are still in active service! not just driven to and from classic car shows!

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Even back then, as a 17-year old greebo, I could see you never actually owned the motor.I reckon this is a critical factor.

But is that such a bad thing? Would you really want to own any of todays porridge? To those who pay 50 quid a week to use a new car it works well. No farting about with MOT's or any of that guff, just drive the thing. To some, 50 quid a week - because it's effectively hire - is tax deductible and if you routinely hire a car twice a week (£80) then to have one for 50 quid to use anytime isn't a bad deal. A Vectra will only ever be a hire car anyway and not something you'd be proud to own.....surely?

[r.welfare]

Don't disagree Reverend, but as I recall the specific circumstances for those involved, combined with the rather optomistic pricing of such deals in their infancy, meant these folk were paying substantially over the odds. Of course, if they'd had any nous, they could have picked up something that would have lasted at least a year for just two of their monthly payments... Of course, when the arse drops out of the used car market (as it is doing now), these kind of deals make more sense in that you can just dump it on the dealer's forecourt at the end, drive off in your new 'un, and the manufacturer takes the excess depreciation hit.You're right in that I have no desire to own a Vectra - but that said, if I found one cheap enough that had been well looked-after and it fitted my criteria, I'd probably take a punt. I usually look at a broad range of motors before buying the one that appears to offer the best likelihood of reliability and low cost of ownership - trying to find a full service history on an elderly shitter is very difficult, but that's my main requirement. I'd rather have a good example of a "bad" car than vice versa - and I've owned more of the former than the latter, thankfully! Brings to mind the criteria presented to me a month ago by my aunt for a friend of hers; must have PAS, cheap tax and be under £500. I steered her away from the usual knackered Fiestas and found a lovely, 44k mile (with full main dealer history) 90H Mazda 323 1.3 saloon, for 400 notes. Quite fancied the little bugger myself...

[CortinaDave]

I had a vectra for a bit and quite liked it! it was an sri so had the half leather recaros, air con, traction control, fuel computer etc.. and it ran on LPG. Perfect.

[Mr Lobster]

I seem to recall some bit of 'research' a year or two back on how much tax the average car earns the government during its life (which was a LOT). Anyway, the research came up with the conclusion that the 'average' car dies at just eight years old. I guess based on the fact that whilst some live much longer, plenty get written off at 1 / 2 years old.We run a few Vauxhalls at work, it amazes me how bad the Vectra is relative to a Mondeo or somesuch and how Vauxhall manage to sell the Astra which so many people find to be so very uncomfortable.