Shite in Miniature II

[danthecapriman]

16 minutes ago, bunglebus said:

When new stock comes in anywhere, it flies off the legs and the rest stagnate. Anyone would think it's middle aged collectors buying them, rather than kids. There doesn't seem to be any sort of feedback loop to Mattel, so all they know is that they sold x amount of cases to y supplier. I can only continue to vote with my wallet whenever shops do have what I want, in the hope that it encourages them to restock.

I do wonder what happens to all the battered card Hot Wheels in the big dump bins you used to see at B&M etc, do they eventually sell, are they sent back, written off and ploughed into landfill?

Can the mazak/pot metal/zinc alloy whatever it is these diecast toys are mode from be recycled? 
I know some new ones state on the packaging they’re made from recycled materials but obviously once you mix the reclaimed base metals into an alloy to make the diecast item can it be remelted and used again?

[bunglebus]

Well Blue Peter had a good go at destroying lots of toy cars when they did one of their appeals, so I'd say yes

[lesapandre]

21 minutes ago, bunglebus said:

Well Blue Peter had a good go at destroying lots of toy cars when they did one of their appeals, so I'd say yes

& Peter still with us - 85. 👍

I'm not particularly into models but it is a great read. Thanks to all the posters and a very happy New Year.

[MiniMinorMk3]

The problems with the British toy/model car started when the likes of Dinky and Corgi ignored the European 1/43rd standard. All the French, Italian and German manufacturers all sold in 1/43rd, thus creating a standard size for collectors. The other think was all those European manufacturers resisted the fantasy diecast market that Matchbox went for, so their smaller scale stuff was always proper cars and trucks.

The refusal of Corgi and Dinky to follow the 1/43rd scale, and for Matchbox to follow the Mattel lead with fantasy cars, lead to a lot of collectors refusing to buy their products. I have been buying from auction for over 20 years and the stuff that has always had a premium price are Dinkys and Corgis with rubber tyres and Matchbox up to the first Superfast. Also anything European from the 1950s to early 1970s realised premium prices. It has taken quite a few years for early Whizzwheels and fantasy Superfast to gain some value and be collected by collectors.

The other thing that has killed off demand for toys cars is things like Star Wars. When I was young I had all the TV21 Corgi and Dinky Toys, and in the late 70's my younger brother was into Star Wars. Toy makers and retailers know that they will make the most sales, thus profits, from a film of TV tie in, not a bog stock modern hatchback toy with some fancy graphics.

As for the part works, again there was no one in the UK making 1/43rd models aimed at collectors until Vanguards came along. The only other offerings in the UK were MoY and Lledos. Again the French, Italian and Germans had continued with their 1/43rd models of current cars, but other newer manufactures joined in during the 1980s making models for collectors. A lot of those manufactures have come and gone but the habit for collectors to buy models on the Continent remained.

The final nail in the coffin for collectors models in the UK has been the likes of Ebay and on-line shopping which killed off the High Street model shop, there are still a few about but they are few and far between. Even the likes of Modelzone have gone, which was one of the last places that I actually purchased a 1/43rd model car in.

For me the best place now to get a fix for 1/43rds is at toy fairs and auctions, auctions being the best place for a more diverse selection.

[sierraman]

The problem is in the U.K. the supply side is just not thought out properly, in theory it should be so simple but somewhere along the line someone with a business studies degree will have tapped the wrong numbers in a spreadsheet and next thing you know there’s 110,000,000 airport tugs ordered to Poundland. I don’t think whoever is overseeing it understands what people are wanting, it’ll just be someone completely disinterested looking at bare figures in terms of how many boxes they send out not what’s in them. 

[flat4alfa]

On 29/12/2024 at 17:24, Split_Pin said:

I'm going going up in my loft tomorrow to repatriate my 1/43 models with their outer cards. They are a range of brands, some Minichamps, Norev, plus a batch of Russian diecast (the proper heavy, shonky ones and not partwork items).

My plan was just to stick them up on Marketplace as a job lot as that's worked quite well in the past. I can put up a list somewhere on here if anyone's interested?

Yes list please 

[danthecapriman]

1 hour ago, sierraman said:

The problem is in the U.K. the supply side is just not thought out properly, in theory it should be so simple but somewhere along the line someone with a business studies degree will have tapped the wrong numbers in a spreadsheet and next thing you know there’s 110,000,000 airport tugs ordered to Poundland. I don’t think whoever is overseeing it understands what people are wanting, it’ll just be someone completely disinterested looking at bare figures in terms of how many boxes they send out not what’s in them. 

That, unfortunately, is how much of British business and companies are run nowadays. 
What you should have is someone who has experience and knowledge doing things. What you actually get is some clueless common sense deficient college student whose good at sitting in a classroom filling in test papers but has absolutely no common sense, experience or real world knowledge doing things and is calling the shots.

1 hour ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

The problems with the British toy/model car started when the likes of Dinky and Corgi ignored the European 1/43rd standard. All the French, Italian and German manufacturers all sold in 1/43rd, thus creating a standard size for collectors. The other think was all those European manufacturers resisted the fantasy diecast market that Matchbox went for, so their smaller scale stuff was always proper cars and trucks.

The refusal of Corgi and Dinky to follow the 1/43rd scale, and for Matchbox to follow the Mattel lead with fantasy cars, lead to a lot of collectors refusing to buy their products. I have been buying from auction for over 20 years and the stuff that has always had a premium price are Dinkys and Corgis with rubber tyres and Matchbox up to the first Superfast. Also anything European from the 1950s to early 1970s realised premium prices. It has taken quite a few years for early Whizzwheels and fantasy Superfast to gain some value and be collected by collectors.

The other thing that has killed off demand for toys cars is things like Star Wars. When I was young I had all the TV21 Corgi and Dinky Toys, and in the late 70's my younger brother was into Star Wars. Toy makers and retailers know that they will make the most sales, thus profits, from a film of TV tie in, not a bog stock modern hatchback toy with some fancy graphics.

As for the part works, again there was no one in the UK making 1/43rd models aimed at collectors until Vanguards came along. The only other offerings in the UK were MoY and Lledos. Again the French, Italian and Germans had continued with their 1/43rd models of current cars, but other newer manufactures joined in during the 1980s making models for collectors. A lot of those manufactures have come and gone but the habit for collectors to buy models on the Continent remained.

The final nail in the coffin for collectors models in the UK has been the likes of Ebay and on-line shopping which killed off the High Street model shop, there are still a few about but they are few and far between. Even the likes of Modelzone have gone, which was one of the last places that I actually purchased a 1/43rd model car in.

For me the best place now to get a fix for 1/43rds is at toy fairs and auctions, auctions being the best place for a more diverse selection.

That would make sense. Guess where I get the vast majority of my 1:43 models? Yep, European sellers. 

I thought 1:43 was a British thing initially? Based on our old Hornby O gauge model trains. 1:43.5 scale being the same as O gauge. 
It always made me wonder why the likes of Triang (famous for their trains!) decided on using 1:42 for their road vehicles range. Or Dinky going for so many other scales rather than standardising on 1:43 which would tie them in perfectly with Hornby etc trains. God only knows what Corgi were doing with their range!
There are 1:43 Dinky’s though - The Bedford TK as we discussed a while back and @flat4alfa worked out by scaling it from measuring. The AEC Mercury tractor unit is predominantly 1:43 too if you ignore the toy wheels!

Its extremely frustrating being a Brit and wanting 1:43 models, and even more frustrating if you want models of British vehicles! Things are better than they used to be in that regard but still a long way off being great! 
3D printed models and parts are an absolute god send but not everyone can make the most of them, given how much work is needed to make something from them. 

I can’t see things changing though sadly.

[sierraman]

It’s funny because un Europe they have a good selection of diecast in the supermarkets

[sierraman]

It’s funny because un Europe they have a good selection of diecast in the supermarkets

[MiniMinorMk3]

That's another thing that has happened in the UK. When I was 5 years old I remember the local paper/sweet/tobacco shops always had the Matchbox 75 range displays and you asked the shop keeper for one of the one you wanted. Also the local post office shop had Airfix kits in it, the simple ones that came in bags so you could build a Spitfire and play Battle of Britain when you had finished it. If you wanted something a bit more taxing you could go for the Sopwith Camel of the Red Fokker Tri-Plane. I can not remember the last time I saw Airfix kits or Matchbox Toys in a local shop. If one has any type of toys in it now, it is just some sparkly bit of tat that wouldn't last 5 minutes of rough playing. What do boys buy now with their pocket money, minutes of data on their phones so they can watch effluencers talk shite?

 

PS I can not wait for the holiday season to be over so I can watch and bid on some more auctions.

[sierraman]

9 minutes ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

That's another thing that has happened in the UK. When I was 5 years old I remember the local paper/sweet/tobacco shops always had the Matchbox 75 range displays and you asked the shop keeper for one of the one you wanted. Also the local post office shop had Airfix kits in it, the simple ones that came in bags so you could build a Spitfire and play Battle of Britain when you had finished it. If you wanted something a bit more taxing you could go for the Sopwith Camel of the Red Fokker Tri-Plane. I can not remember the last time I saw Airfix kits or Matchbox Toys in a local shop. If one has any type of toys in it now, it is just some sparkly bit of tat that wouldn't last 5 minutes of rough playing. What do boys buy now with their pocket money, minutes of data on their phones so they can watch effluencers talk shite?

 

PS I can not wait for the holiday season to be over so I can watch and bid on some more auctions.

I don’t know my youngest still plays with her cars as does my nephew - he’s car mad. 

[Datsuncog]

3 hours ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

there was no one in the UK making 1/43rd models aimed at collectors until Vanguards came along. The only other offerings in the UK were MoY and Lledos.

Mostly agree with your line of thinking, although the post-1985 Corgi Classics and the 1989-on Matchbox Dinky Collection were (generally) 1/43, and aimed squarely at collectors while pre-dating the 1/43 Vanguards range by quite a few years - and indeed eventually combined, once Corgi bought Lledo.

It was a pity that Tyco didn't really appreciate the Dinky name, and allowed it to wither and die again after they acquired the rights to Matchbox from Universal Toys - although at that point it had ceased to be either a UK company or manufacturer.

Jack Odell had the right idea that adults would buy diecast vehicles as readily as children, and both his Models of Yesteryear line under Matchbox and then the Lledo Days Gone range developed after he left Lesney, were affordable and wildly popular.

I think their main problem was a failure to properly update these lines over the decades, and progressively draw in younger customers with nostalgic models that were a little newer.

The later Lledo Vanguards line of 1950s and 60s vehicles was a valiant effort to shift focus away from the pre-war Days Gone models, but was possibly too little too late - although the 1996-on 1/43 Vanguards range sold pretty well and were popular with collectors, by the late 1990s international trading conditions made it much harder to turn a profit unless production was outsourced to Far Eastern countries.

It could be argued that Odell principally made models of the 1920s and 30s vehicles that had interested him as a small boy, and was dismissive of anything that fell outside of that - he didn't retire until 1999 when he was 79, at the point Lledo had entered bankruptcy proceedings.

Things might have been different if he'd relaxed his grip earlier and allowed a more progressive development of the model range - but, like many failed businesses with a CEO who was passionate but perhaps not very pragmatic, everything was rosy until it suddenly wasn't.

One of the main points of divergence (IMO) was that European toymakers producing 1/43 models such as Tekno, Solido, Norev, Gama, Mebecars etc continued to stick to their principles of producing good, detailed replicas of classic and current cars for their own domestic markets, whereas Matchbox and Corgi became fixated on competing with Mattel, as that's where they believed the mass market lay.

Since the big UK makers relied on much greater volume production lines and international exports, Lesney and Mettoy had much further to fall than these smaller European toymakers - and as they started pitched more 'exciting' products which strayed further and further from the cars seen on the roads, unsurprisingly adult collectors and older kids switched off. 

I find it telling that between the mid 1960s and mid 1970s, the average age of Corgi's customers fell from 14 to 7, and as a result super-realistic depictions of vehicles with lots of features became less of a priority than affordability and low development costs; indeed, even now some Corgi Model Club members continue to vilify the Whizzwheels era castings as 'not real Corgis', and therefore not worthy of reproduction through the club - even though the body castings of the Mk3 Cortina or Marina Coupe were just as good as those a few years before, in the rubber-tyre era. 

Corgi's switch to 1/36 scale from the mid-1970s - driven in part by the need to replicate increasingly complex advertising stickers on their F1 cars, and the realisation that development costs were the same for bigger scaled models but the perceived value by the customer was greater - further detached collectors' interest, as Matchbox Superkings and Dinky followed suit by upsizing many of their offerings.

It would be interesting to consider what might have happened if Matchbox had followed the example of Solido, producing a range of well-detailed adult-oriented 1/43 contemporary vehicles alongside the older MoY classics, in a similar vein to the Hi-Fi and L'Age d'Or lines.

However, it's also worth remembering that the European manufacturers endured similarly tumultuous times in the 1970s and 80s, with most suffering bankruptcy, takeovers and last-ditch mergers in just the same way as UK toymakers.

[Datsuncog]

3 hours ago, sierraman said:

I don’t think whoever is overseeing it understands what people are wanting, it’ll just be someone completely disinterested looking at bare figures in terms of how many boxes they send out not what’s in them. 

That's the main issue, for me - the Mattel 'sealed case system' for Matchbox and Hot Wheels mainlines is good for the manufacturer and the wholesaler, and much easier for big-box retailers to keep a handle on, but it really doesn't serve customers/ collectors at all.

I can see how it's way easier from a product planning standpoint to simply produce a single huge run of a given model, then combine them into a case of two dozen other models and ship them all out to stores and wholesalers worldwide. It's a much simpler, standardised system than Corgi or Matchbox operated back in the 1950s and 60s, where retailers were shown samples by reps and allowed to order whatever they fancied, processed by an army of admin staff, and items picked to order from warehouse stock.

This resulted in enormous warehousing costs from having to maintain constant stock of all their different lines, plus the risk of a given toy simply not selling, and the manufacturer having to either hold dead stock or discount it to drive wholesale orders. Plus the costs of changing over tooling, paint and assembly lines when regularly switching production between models to meet increased demand.

For the most part, Mattel just make them and ship them as a single unit case. If there's unpopular models in the case, then that becomes the retailers' problem, not theirs. Because the models are relatively cheap, they're a fairly low-value range - which is why supermarkets and discount retailers tend to be the main UK retail outlets now, not traditional toy shops. It's just product, to them.

Barcodes are the same across all the different models, so retailers have absolutely no way of telling what's popular and what's not, but they don't have any reason to care - because they're never promoting them. They're just a cheap toy amongst many others. Once a new case hits, collectors will be down to raid it but they'll all sell, eventually - kids will buy even the rubbishy stuff, or else well-meaning parents or grandparents.

So Tesco or Poundland or whoever just see they've 126 Matchbox units or whatever on the store stockfile - but they've no way of knowing if they're decent stock or all just unwanted pegwarmers like the airport tugs, motorbike trailers or speed cameras. And they don't care. The Entertainer or Smyths are no better, really - even if they tend to stock more of the Premium lines, they're still just smaller mix selections. Some will be popular and some absolutely won't.

I follow a few YouTube collectors who run stores selling Matchbox and Hot Wheels mainlines, and their take is that only about 33% of the cars in the Mattel cases they buy are resellable - the bulk of the rest is of no interest to collectors, and generally ends up being given away or else donated to children's charities. But again, that benefits the manufacturer, as they get to shift more product since the small retailer doesn't get to choose - if they want more red Fiestas because they're super hot, hell, they'll just have to buy more complete cases. More wholesale product sales for them.

We're a small market over here, and there's sadly no getting away from that. Mattel are happy to work with major US retailers like Target, Walmart and Kroger to produce exclusive releases, and package up individual castings into single boxes, but they must be selling them in the millions and that's not really scalable on these shores - so mostly all the UK gets are plain assortments, the same as anywhere else in the world. And for the non-mainline releases, it does feel like we get the dregs. 

I guess the TL:DR version of all this is that the Mattel designers seem to care - they're putting out some absolutely terrific castings right now - and the collectors care, but the Mattel conglomerate and the majority of UK retailers absolutely don't give a monkeys. 

[Datsuncog]

34 minutes ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

That's another thing that has happened in the UK. When I was 5 years old I remember the local paper/sweet/tobacco shops always had the Matchbox 75 range displays and you asked the shop keeper for one of the one you wanted. Also the local post office shop had Airfix kits in it, the simple ones that came in bags so you could build a Spitfire and play Battle of Britain when you had finished it. If you wanted something a bit more taxing you could go for the Sopwith Camel of the Red Fokker Tri-Plane. I can not remember the last time I saw Airfix kits or Matchbox Toys in a local shop. If one has any type of toys in it now, it is just some sparkly bit of tat that wouldn't last 5 minutes of rough playing. What do boys buy now with their pocket money, minutes of data on their phones so they can watch effluencers talk shite?

I can't remember the last time I was in a local paper/ sweet/ tobacco shop, or indeed a standalone Post Office that wasn't just a counter in a petrol station or supermarket.

I think that might be part of the answer.

But there were always places selling cheap, nasty toys bought from cash-and-carries; that hasn't changed for a hundred years or more.

I think it's that the manufacturers/ importers/ distributors for those products are still happy to sell stuff piecemeal to small independent retailers, whereas the Mattel business model is more geared towards vast orders shipped directly to the distribution centres of major chains.

It is possible to get Matchbox and Hot Wheels if you're an independent trader, but I understand it's rather more hassle than just nipping to Makro and getting some knock-off Pokémon plushes.

[bunglebus]

Got a couple of bits left outside the front door today, didn't even clock this one in the job lot but it's kinda interesting 

Seems it's a Hungarian copy of the Matchbox Police Launch

https://retropresso.blogspot.com/2012/07/matchbox-police-launch-masolat-torpedo.html?m=1

Siku 911 Targa with the mad colour windows

Unusual Willy Street Rod (actually StreeY Rod on the base) in a pearl finish that's impossible to photograph

[danthecapriman]

I remember as a kid you could find Matchbox and Corgi stuff in most places you could end up when out with the parents shopping. Corner shops, Woolworth’s, Asda etc, Toy shops, even petrol stations and my local pharmacy had limited stuff sometimes. Majorette and Hot Wheels were always (in my experience anyway) much harder to come by. 
That pharmacy near where I lived even used to get those big no name cheap trays of 1:64 sized vehicles in now and then where each tray came with something like 30 odd vehicles inside and all were different. I remember spending ages sorting through the trays when I was in the shop to see which cars were in each one before selecting one to buy! 
There’s nothing like that now though. The only place to get them is either getting lucky in certain supermarkets or toy shops. Failing that you need to get online on eBay or online specialist retailers. Even since moving house a month back I’ve seen no diecast of any sort in local shops.

What I’ve learned to do now is list what I’m after or would like, then head to certain online/ebay sellers in Europe or occasionally further afield and buy a few at a time with combined shipping prices. Yes, you do still end up spending more than the natives would but it’s still much cheaper than a UK retailer and you can actually get what your after. If you bulk buy it does offset the shipping costs too.

Regarding the actual diecast model itself, I’m one of those who turned away from the main manufacturers because they kept making stuff I hated. Matchbox and Hot Wheels fantasy stuff really did get on my last nerve as a kid! It was just junk in my eyes as you simply never saw them in real life and couldn’t relate to them. Likewise the constant barrage of hotted up custom stuff from certain manufacturers (Hot wheels mainly!) just did nothing for me, and still doesn’t really. 
That is one of the big benefits to me going for 1:43 only/mainly… there’s a much bigger range of normal stuff in that scale which is what I want. 
In a way platforms like eBay have done immeasurable damage to high street retail and local shops, but ultimately if those places can’t or won’t stock what I want I am going to use the likes of eBay etc instead. Similarly, if UK sellers don’t stock what I’m after I will get it from abroad and put my money in their pocket instead. While we’re on the subject, some UK retailers could learn a lot from some of the European retailers I’ve been using too… the service they offer has generally been fantastic. 
For me the likes of eBay has been a god send as I’d never have got or even seen most of the things I have recently. Of course I’d have been considerably richer too but you can’t take it with you I suppose!!

[Peter C]

Some of my old tat.

 

[flat4alfa]

I could not see a Delorean amongst them, you had me fooled

[MiniMinorMk3]

1 hour ago, Datsuncog said:

Mostly agree with your line of thinking, although the post-1985 Corgi Classics and the 1989-on Matchbox Dinky Collection were (generally) 1/43, and aimed squarely at collectors while pre-dating the 1/43 Vanguards range by quite a few years - and indeed eventually combined, once Corgi bought Lledo.

 

I'd forgotten about those two ranges. I did start collecting the Dinky Matchbox ones as they were issued, but the range was odd. When they started doing new colour versions more than new castings my interest kind of stopped because at that time I was collected different cars and not concentrating on certain marques. I did have the Cortina and Zephyr/Zodiacs by Corgi.

[flat4alfa]

I understood Mettoy determined in the mid-seventies that the perfect scale for children playing with the models was 1:36.  Historically 'O' gauge referred to a track gauge of 1 1/4" and Mettoy thought that was a dated concept for a range focussed on road vehicles and not rail.

As mentioned, they also wanted to make the models look better value for money and the 1:36 scale was easy to calculate (which is why Spot-On chose 1:42 instead of 1:43) and the amount of raw materials used to make a 1:36 model versus a 1:43-ish model was little enough that it didn't affect the price point too much.

[sierraman]

Although universally disliked I really like this era Matchbox. Some of them are also surprisingly difficult to find as well. 

[sierraman]

Although universally disliked I really like this era Matchbox. Some of them are also surprisingly difficult to find as well. 

[flat4alfa]

Yes, why was that?  I can't recall finding the DB7 and even if I had, likely missed it due to the blandness

I think mainly because the range was so heavily focussed on US-market vehicles, there was little to recognise for the typical European lad.  Perhaps confirmed by these two that did sell well: the Astra GSi (GTE) and ALFA SZ :

But for the era, these took some beating...  Rhino Rod, Tailgator and Rotwheeler :

[quicksilver]

1 hour ago, flat4alfa said:

Yes, why was that?  I can't recall finding the DB7 and even if I had, likely missed it due to the blandness

I think mainly because the range was so heavily focussed on US-market vehicles, there was little to recognise for the typical European lad.  Perhaps confirmed by these two that did sell well: the Astra GSi (GTE) and ALFA SZ :

But for the era, these took some beating...  Rhino Rod, Tailgator and Rotwheeler :

The designers in that era must have been taking some good drugs. "What I really want is a toy car that looks like a big angry dog on wheels with a shiny engine in its arse" said no one ever.

[bunglebus]

Don't know if it was Tyco or Universal, but the ethos seemed to be just put mad colours and graphics on everything, whether it needed them or not

 

[andrew e]

I really enjoy the neon era on toy cars, and dayglow good examples are tough to find - collectors turned their noses up whilst kids played the life out of them.

[sierraman]

The Frontera is particularly memorable, my dad had to go to London for work and dropped me and my mum off to go shopping. I remember buying that one from Hamleys. In true Autoshite style we went there in the firms 1991 Cavalier 1.4 saloon, I remember it distinctly as it had the usual rash they used to get on the panel below the headlamps. 

[Spottedlaurel]

Happy New Year all! Wonder what 2025 will hold in store for us here, will the same old Matchbox still be cluttering up the pegs? How many more Fast & Furious cars can HW knock out?

On a personal level, will I build more kits than I buy? Doubtful, but......

 

 

TR7 is coming along nicely. Main job now is to polish the bodywork then I can paint the vinyl roof and black trim and detail the various moulded-in lights. Even with the black bumpers fitted it's started coming to life.

Also did final finishing touches to this one:

 

 

Skyline GT-R RB engine transplant.

The level of detail is fantastic, but that also presented some challenges not all of which I adequately rose to.

[eddyramrod]

I don't really "do" 1/24 diecast, but MrsR surprised me at Christmas with this...

...We are an Elvis house after all!  So obviously I've unpacked it now...

That'll do nicely.

[666jjp]

Hi, I have these cars that have been in a box for years. is there anything special or just are they just standard fodder?

None of them are perfect but are still sealed.