Retromobile reflections (2025)

[andrew e]

Bucketlist ticked ☑️  A couple of months back myself and @R Lutz decided to go to the Paris motorshow @ Salon as we thought its potentially the last bonafide manufacturer backed show left this side of a long haul flight. It was bloody great (theres a thread in the modern toss section HERE ) so we decided to tick the classic show off next aka Retromobile. 

Obviously there is a problem in that you need to get there by plane train or automobile, and though you could possibly do it in a day you are going to need to overnight. Tickets were €22 in advance (under £19) which compares very favourably to the NEC show which was £41 in advance. Food inside and outside in Paris was comparable price wise, though you do get the €5 waffle sellers inside the show…

A mini-shitter meet up with @andyberg was on the cards as a bonus 🍻So in we went. First thing to wrestle with was this poor engineless Citroen SM, we told ourselves the Maserati V8 had grenaded and made it an uneconomical write off. Of course we didnt believe that either. 

Not a good start, best to start looking the other way. CHRIST exclaims my co-pilot @R Lutz on seeing a smashed up Metro GTI, or as I correct him 100 GTA. A slight badging disagreement later and we agree, we didn't expect to trip over this. Neither of us to this day is exactly clear why it was there or proving, but hey ho a Metro get the thumbs up from us 👍

Next up on the “it’s a new one to me” list was this. A coupe MX5 or specifically, a Mazda MX5 NB coupe. I’m not sure if the shape worked, but then I’m no fan of the second generation MX5 body. See what you think?

A wander over to Skoda next, we were taken slightly aback by the amount of manufacturer sponsored stands, and more taken aback by no rear engined saloons. There was the 110 prototype coupe I've only ever seen in photos so that made it up for it, they also had some crackers on the stand including the Superb with the factory rear sunroof.

 

 

 

 

 

[andrew e]

Mercedes next and the 70’s supercar dream C111 in glorious Wankel POWAH. These in all their configurations are up there with a 288 GTO or Mclaren F1 on the money no object list, maybe only an Isderda Imperator might trump it.  The C111 really fascinates me because of the actual thought put into it as a proper functioning supercar, not a block of fiberglass for motorshows.

Next up this racing green beauty - Lamborghini Muira. 

A drop down to reality was needed. Cheers Toyota, the original Prius and an EV Rav 4 looked a little less billion dollar, but were a welcome nod to reality. In fact Mitsubishi had a surprised presence, and looking round the original (bar the wheels) Shogun/Pajero you can see just how much an oriental Range Rover it is. Chinese levels of copy… er borrowing, mainly the proportions and approach angles but especially the dash layout. 

Matra next and the poormans F1 with the Murena and its 3 abreast seating, and Peugeot 505 flaps. This one seems to have been envisaged in a hallucination by TVR gaffer Peter Wheeler @ 1987 though.

[DSdriver]

Seeing the Kubelwagen in the first set reminded me of a rep at a company I once worked for who had a military green one, The directors of the company made an executive decision that he wasn't to drive it when going to see our Jewish clients.

[andrew e]

All I can say is ACE. Just a brilliant see-thru Mehari where you can spot leaks instantly.

Now a rarity - V8 BMW 507 the German Cobra that a million percent influenced Carroll Shelby. They made 252 cars. There were 3 here….

IMSA AUDI anyone? 18 foot wide* and not just a pure racing prototype with an Audi shape plonked on top, they actually had a lot of Audi 100/200 underpinning, these were mighty in IMSA in the states, so mighty they changed the rules. In a 13 race season  Audi won 8 races in a new car. Check out the offset of the alloys 😳

https://www.audiworld.com/articles/1988-audi-200-trans-am/

Renault was on fire with confused eldery Frenchmen roaming everywhere and demanding to see a fuel powered 5 😉

Touring Veloce 12 was oh so delicate and pretty. It might nudge into the lottery top ten list….

Colin McRaes Le Mans class winning V12 550, I saw this live at the race so this was quite a treat up close again over 20 years later.

[andyberg]

A bloody brilliant show. Me and my son have already booked flights and hotel for the 50th anniversary show next year. A pleasure to meet @andrew e and other shiters. Just shows how ripped off we in the uk are. And just what crap we put up with. 
A wholly recommended show. 

[andrew e]

Now for the historic racing knackers, some absolute beauties on the Fiskens stand, enough to entice quite a well known motorsport dictator, sorry director onto the stand. See if you can spot the current FIA sporting director roaming about.

From beauties to the beast. Beastly looking at least, I’m sure this butchered Lynx Eventer would have looked good in ANY other colour, but in my eyes it just looked shite. It was tatty too for a car on display, and not in a patina way either…..

Back to the sublime again…. Feast your eyes!

 

 

 

[MiniMinorMk3]

40 minutes ago, DSdriver said:

Seeing the Kubelwagen in the first set reminded me of a rep at a company I once worked for who had a military green one, The directors of the company made an executive decision that he wasn't to drive it when going to see our Jewish clients.

To me calling a VW Trekker (Type 181) a Kubelwagen is like calling a Reliant Robin a Robin Reliant.

[hairnet]

saw a elec renault 5 on the move in tilburg on saturday

where i posted the jag in the grin thread it drove past as the jag drove off

friend was facing the other way and missed it

 

[DSdriver]

27 minutes ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

To me calling a VW Trekker (Type 181) a Kubelwagen is like calling a Reliant Robin a Robin Reliant.

It looks like a Kubelwagen to me as I have very little interest in German cars.

I have never before heard of  VW Trekker, perhaps you would care to explain the difference between the front view of the two vehicles?

[MiniMinorMk3]

37 minutes ago, DSdriver said:

It looks like a Kubelwagen to me as I have very little interest in German cars.

I have never before heard of  VW Trekker, perhaps you would care to explain the difference between the front view of the two vehicles?

VW Trekker (Type 181) made between 1968 and 1983. In the US the Trekker is known as the VW Thing.

Type 82 Kubelwagen, built from 1939 to 1945

[andrew e]

Ah but its actually Type 182 if its right hand drive!

[doug]

I was there as well. Loved it. Here is my contribution. 

[DSdriver]

1 hour ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

VW Trekker (Type 181) made between 1968 and 1983. In the US the Trekker is known as the VW Thing.

Type 82 Kubelwagen, built from 1939 to 1945

Thanks, his must have been a Trekker but was always refered to as 'The Kubelwagen' 

[andrew e]

Variety pack time, starting with the real and the fake/reimagined Lancia 037’s 

 

[andrew e]

This had thousands of show goers passing it without realising what pivotal point in the whole Alfa-Romeo Enzo story it was. I was chatting for a good half hour to the man whose company turned into into what you see here, even better the owner is planning on exercising it frequently and building a patina. More of this billionaire car collectors please!

Finally for this post, check out this what if - coupe Citroen ID. Compare to what occurred many years later. I would quite happily have either please!

 

 

[MiniMinorMk3]

1 hour ago, andrew e said:

 

This had thousands of show goers passing it without realising what pivotal point in the whole Alfa-Romeo Enzo story it was. I was chatting for a good half hour to the man whose company turned into into what you see here, even better the owner is planning on exercising it frequently and building a patina. More of this billionaire car collectors please

 

Scuderia Ferrari was not set up until 1929. In 1923 Enzo Ferrari was still a driver for Alfa Romeo. The following tells the story of how Ferrari was "given permission to use the Cavallino Rampante" and Ferrari did not use the emblem until 1932. Thus the story of both the Quadrifoligo Verde and the Cavallino Rampante both being on aa car in 1923 is not correct. 

As for the Quadrifoligo Verde, that was put on the car of Ugo Sivocci, who had poor luck and was considered l'eterno secondo. To ward away his misfortune, Sivocci had painted on his car a white square with a green four-leaf clover. Just two hundred meters from the finish the Alfa of Ascari stop. He had a big lead so his mechanics were able to get the car restarted, however they all jumped in the car and crossed the line, which lead to Ascari being disqualified. So Ascari returned to the point where he had stopped his car to retrace that part of the track. He finished second behind Sivocci who, meanwhile, had crossed the finish line as a winner, assuring Alfa Romeo their first international victory. As Sivocci had the four leaf clover on the car it was deemed to have worked and due to the superstition it was on the Alfas there after. 

So it wasn't Ascari who requested the Quadrifoligo Verde.

Sivocci at the wheel of his Alfa on the 1923 Targa Florio

This is Ascari with his four leaf clover in a triangle

Ascari with his mechanics onboard

Campari with his in a circle

The only shot of Enzo Ferrari I can find at the 1923 Targa Florio.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

6 hours ago, hairnet said:

saw a elec renault 5 on the move in tilburg on saturday

where i posted the jag in the grin thread it drove past as the jag drove off

friend was facing the other way and missed it

 

Don’t worry, there’ll be millions of the fuckers on the road soon.  Worked on a massive press/ dealer/ fleet launch last week at Milbook. No pics as they’re very hot on cameras there. We had 70 of ‘em to keep charged for the week so drove a few to our office, warehouse even people’s houses each night.

They drive  really nicely and if the starting price stays at £22k this could be the car that popularises EVs, think Fiat 500’s in 2009/10.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

@andrew eThanks for the pics, especially all the ones in the “wrong” colours. Blue F40, yellow Type 35 etc etc. Even that white F1 looks good.

[HMC]

Was MBS following you? Hes in the background of a few shots. Great pics, thanks for sharing!

[andrew e]

@Tayne there was a regular french cars missing bit I agree, but I did enjoy the show regardless. Like you I was expecting more french. I had been warned bread and butter shite was off the menu though. Still a cracking beano though! 

 

What can you spot on this Simca 936 prototype? Renault 5 meets Issigonis prototype BMC 9x.

https://www.classicandsportscar.com/features/simca-936-french-mini-never-was

[andyberg]

I’m hoping as next year is the 50th there will be more French tat. I would like to see a load of 70s-90s  French stuff. I couldn’t get over the size of hall 1! 

[andyberg]

38 minutes ago, Tayne said:

@andrew e It was rammed when I was there, I couldn’t get near that 504 Riviera.  
 

@andyberg Essen is bigger, it’s worth a visit.

I’ll have a look at that then

[andyberg]

3 minutes ago, Tayne said:

Just checked, 50% bigger.

https://technoclassica.de

And still only £24! Just shows how overpriced the NEC is 

[lesapandre]

The NEC is owned by US company Blackstone - an American private equity investment management company.

Paris Expo Porte de Versailles is owned by the Paris Île-de-France Chamber of Commerce and Industry - and Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield.

URW is French - the largest commercial real estate company in Europe - shares are traded on the French CAC40 stock exchange.

One significant factor in the ticket prices may be how much each of these owners charges to mount exhibitions.

The NEC was formerly owned by Birmingham City Council - sold in 2014.

[lesapandre]

If you fancy a trip to France 🇫🇷 there are literally 1000's of great old vehicle related events on each year.

Best source of information is the comprehensive  listings in this weekly paper.

They don't have an online listing - but do a foreign subscription service.

[lesapandre]

10 hours ago, andyberg said:

And still only £24! Just shows how overpriced the NEC is 

Technoclassica - pricing in terms of supply and demand - The Messe Essen site is the 9th largest exhibition centre in Germany at 110,000 square metres - so there are 8 larger. 

I'm unsure the UK is able to match that - so a lot of events have to go to the NEC - perhaps that is reflected in the ticket price.

Messe Essen is a company owned by the City of Essen - Lord Mayor of the City of Essen is Chairman of the Board.

The City of Essen will be keen to attract businesses - they have at least eight other competitors.

[andyberg]

10 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Technoclassica - pricing in terms of supply and demand - The Messe Essen site is the 9th largest exhibition centre in Germany at 110,000 square metres - so there are 8 larger. 

I'm unsure the UK is able to match that - so a lot of events have to go to the NEC - perhaps reflected in the ticket price.

Messe Essen is a company owned by the City of Essen - Lord Mayor of the City of Essen is Chairman of the Board.

All your points are fair. But there does seem to be a pattern or link to pricing and the relevant owners. Local councils/ government owned seem to do better for the consumer? Would be interesting to see what the comparative pricing was for the NEC before 2014. 

[lesapandre]

I think it's simple supply and demand. UK is probably underprovided in terms of available big venues.

Commercial suppliers will understandably charge what the market will stand.

UK oncosts may also be higher for any UK provider.

[barrett]

50 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

The NEC is owned by US company Blackstone - an American private equity investment management company.

Paris Expo Porte de Versailles is owned by the Paris Île-de-France Chamber of Commerce and Industry - and Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield.

URW is French - the largest commercial real estate company in Europe - shares are traded on the French CAC40 stock exchange.

One significant factor in the ticket prices may be how much each of these owners charges to mount exhibitions.

The NEC was formerly owned by Birmingham City Council - sold in 2014.

Somebody I know paid €40,000 for their medium-sized stand at the edges of hall one. I imagine for the big central dealers and manufacturers it'd be in the hundreds of throusands (just for the stand itself) which you would hope would cover the cost of venue hire at least...

[lesapandre]

Very complex I am sure - juggling all those costs and the entry fee. Someone makes a profit.

This is  very good book that looks at this kind of thing and its conundrums. As a popular starter in the world of economics I'd recommend it. 

With any of these things it's good to ask 'why?' 😃