Rover P6 2000TC - ICE

[barrett]

On 06/01/2025 at 20:13, Inspector Morose said:

A series two 2200TC (in Avacado green with Mango velour interior and brown vinyl roof)

Dream spec P6! Well, apart from the vinyl roof and the silly spare wheel. There was an Avocado 3500 in an auction a few years ago which did funny things to me. One day I'd like to have a 'nice' P6 as I've been really impressed by my aboslute shitter of an example. Lovely things to potter round in and, difficult to explain why, a really 'nice size' for a car.

[Inspector Morose]

21 minutes ago, barrett said:

Dream spec P6! Well, apart from the vinyl roof and the silly spare wheel. There was an Avocado 3500 in an auction a few years ago which did funny things to me. 

The very last one, a 3500 in the same color spec as mine, I presume. I think you could only have the brown vinyl roof with that colour. The interior was a feast of orange!

Mine was a bought new by a chap who regularly used it to drive to Switzerland in it. It gained alpine horns (air/regular), twin pyrene fire extinguishers and webasto roof from new along with the boot kit. It really was a lovely thing that I shouldn't have sold.

[artdjones]

It's a shame they didn't do a proper restyle on it around 1971, using the same basic base unit, with better rust protection, and maybe outboard rear brakes.

[somewhatfoolish]

May just need rocking to get it out of park.

  

7 hours ago, Peter C said:

Cheap spares car, if you need it.

 

[barrett]

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

The very last one, a 3500 in the same color spec as mine, I presume. I think you could only have the brown vinyl roof with that colour. The interior was a feast of orange!

Mine was a bought new by a chap who regularly used it to drive to Switzerland in it. It gained alpine horns (air/regular), twin pyrene fire extinguishers and webasto roof from new along with the boot kit. It really was a lovely thing that I shouldn't have sold.

No Mango on this one, sadly, but I like the yellow French driving lights. Can't remember what it sold for but it was lots and lots of money

 

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, barrett said:

No Mango on this one, sadly, but I like the yellow French driving lights. Can't remember what it sold for but it was lots and lots of money

 

Not surprising when you see what other 60s sports saloons go for. We just expect P6s to be cheap because they have always been so plentiful.

Giulia 1600s for example seem to start at £13-15k for good ones. Whereas the Rover has over double the capacity, with much better acceleration and top speed. And has the cachet of advanced engineering for the time.

Did the Rover hit €50k?

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

The very last one, a 3500 in the same color spec as mine, I presume. I think you could only have the brown vinyl roof with that colour. The interior was a feast of orange!

Mine was a bought new by a chap who regularly used it to drive to Switzerland in it. It gained alpine horns (air/regular), twin pyrene fire extinguishers and webasto roof from new along with the boot kit. It really was a lovely thing that I shouldn't have sold.

Orange, you say...

Would have loved to see this before it faded!

[barrett]

25 minutes ago, artdjones said:

Not surprising when you see what other 60s sports saloons go for. We just expect P6s to be cheap because they have always been so plentiful.

Giulia 1600s for example seem to start at £13-15k for good ones. Whereas the Rover has over double the capacity, with much better acceleration and top speed. And has the cachet of advanced engineering for the time.

Did the Rover hit €50k?

Yeah but the Giulia is the greatest saloon car of the 1960s, perhaps even of all time. And I've no idea what a V8 Rover will do, but a Giulia is significantly faster than a four-pot P6 by some margin. A Giulia Super is quite a bit faster than my 2001 modern car. The Rover's a nice old bus but it's in no way sporty or engaging to drive, and it lumbers all over the place when you hussle it. Giulias are proper sporting cars that can outpace most two-seaters of the 1960s and 70s. I like a P6, but there's no comparison. 

The Rover sold for €33k which, I imagine, is a record for the model.

[artdjones]

33 minutes ago, barrett said:

Yeah but the Giulia is the greatest saloon car of the 1960s, perhaps even of all time. And I've no idea what a V8 Rover will do, but a Giulia is significantly faster than a four-pot P6 by some margin. A Giulia Super is quite a bit faster than my 2001 modern car. The Rover's a nice old bus but it's in no way sporty or engaging to drive, and it lumbers all over the place when you hussle it. Giulias are proper sporting cars that can outpace most two-seaters of the 1960s and 70s. I like a P6, but there's no comparison. 

The Rover sold for €33k which, I imagine, is a record for the model.

A Giulia Super has roughly the same performance as a 2000TC. A 3500S is quite a bit faster than that.

[barrett]

15 minutes ago, artdjones said:

A Giulia Super has roughly the same performance as a 2000TC. A 3500S is quite a bit faster than that.

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. The figures on paper might say one thing, but in the real world it's not true at all (admittedly I've not driven a 2000TC, but it can't be much different from an SC). A Giulia Super will cruise at 100mph without a care in the world when a P6 is revving its nuts off at 65. No way I'd take my P6 above 75 because it would definitely blow up (and if the engine didn't, the axle would). Four-pot Rovers were notorious in period for blowing up because they're not designed for sustained high-speed running. You'd have to drive extremely harshly to get a 0-60 time anything close to a Giulia Super in one, with the slow clunky gearchange. Honestly, they're just chalk and cheese and not comparable in any way. The Super is hands down the best 'old car' I've driven (and I've driven quite a few) in terms of real-world performance, handling and sophistication. A P6 is very much a blunt instrument, for all its modernity in comparison to most British cars of the era. A Giulia is a lovely, responsive and subtle delight. And again, I really like P6s!

[Inspector Morose]

59 minutes ago, barrett said:

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. The figures on paper might say one thing, but in the real world it's not true at all (admittedly I've not driven a 2000TC, but it can't be much different from an SC). A Giulia Super will cruise at 100mph without a care in the world when a P6 is revving its nuts off at 65. No way I'd take my P6 above 75 because it would definitely blow up (and if the engine didn't, the axle would). Four-pot Rovers were notorious in period for blowing up because they're not designed for sustained high-speed running. You'd have to drive extremely harshly to get a 0-60 time anything close to a Giulia Super in one, with the slow clunky gearchange. Honestly, they're just chalk and cheese and not comparable in any way. The Super is hands down the best 'old car' I've driven (and I've driven quite a few) in terms of real-world performance, handling and sophistication. A P6 is very much a blunt instrument, for all its modernity in comparison to most British cars of the era. A Giulia is a lovely, responsive and subtle delight. And again, I really like P6s!

You'd be surprised, a TC was leagues ahead in performance over the SC. My TC would comfortably sit at around 70ish (officer) for miles on end (admittedly at higher revs than your ears feel was comfortable) and as a weapon for point A to point B, there wasn't much around that could beat it, as long as there wasn't too many twisty bits. It was in no way a car designed for a previous age but one that helped create a new segment of small sports saloons in the UK. Young thrusting executives just didn't want the 'old boys club on wheels' of yesteryear (think 3 litres, staid design and handling, and more wood than Ronnie) but wanted something a bit tighter and sportier. The P5 wasn't selling as well as hoped in this market because of this change in trend (it was the 60s after all) and the P6 really was Rover's reaction to this shift.

BUT

For sheer driving pleasure, Giulia every time. The Rover is good, but it's a piece of engineering in the Brunel style, the Giulia on the other hand was a piece of artisan engineering that had the ability to make you tingle every time you drove one.

[N Dentressangle]

1 hour ago, barrett said:

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. The figures on paper might say one thing, but in the real world it's not true at all (admittedly I've not driven a 2000TC, but it can't be much different from an SC). A Giulia Super will cruise at 100mph without a care in the world when a P6 is revving its nuts off at 65. No way I'd take my P6 above 75 because it would definitely blow up (and if the engine didn't, the axle would). Four-pot Rovers were notorious in period for blowing up because they're not designed for sustained high-speed running. 

Here's a pic of the handbook

Obvs I'm running 30/32 😎

[artdjones]

16 minutes ago, barrett said:

A Giulia Super will cruise at 100mph without a care in the world when a P6 is revving its nuts off at 65

According to Autocar a 2000SC cruises fine up to 90

In any case a 60s Italian speedo showing a 100mph cruise probably means the car was doing 85

32 minutes ago, barrett said:

Four-pot Rovers were notorious in period for blowing up because they're not designed for sustained high-speed running.

What's your source for that? Because I think you've been misinformed. The engine is a bit noisy, but is very strong.  We're talking the 1960s here, not the 30s. This went on sale in the motorway age.

57 minutes ago, barrett said:

You'd have to drive extremely harshly to get a 0-60 time anything close to a Giulia Super in one,

Tell Autocar or Motor, not me.

I'm sure a Giulia is lovely to drive for a sporting car enthusiast. But back in the 60s a 2000 would be a better bet for everyone else. The ride would be better, the handling stodgier, but the roadholding better. Probably better passive safety as well. And before BL really controlled things, better quality and durability.

[SiC]

On 06/01/2025 at 19:35, ETCHY said:

Worth a watch

Presumably this is the easiest way for someone to do maintenance on the rear De Dion axle. Just flip the car over...

A bit like how the heater box radiator in a car interior is the first thing to go in and a nightmare to replace on a modern car.

 

Watching that video has made me want one now.

[N Dentressangle]

6 minutes ago, SiC said:

Watching that video has made me want one now.

You'll have to have a drive sometime when I'm in Bristol

[2flags]

The P6 is a wonderful car. I had the 3500. I remember going down going down the M4 when a Mercedes came flying passed. I pulled out and followed it. Suddenly the wife noticed that it was no longer getting away from us. It was then she saw how fast we were going, 115mph. 😁I then had to slow down. 😒 

[artdjones]

9 minutes ago, 2flags said:

The P6 is a wonderful car. I had the 3500. I remember going down going down the M4 when a Mercedes came flying passed. I pulled out and followed it. Suddenly the wife noticed that it was no longer getting away from us. It was then she saw how fast we were going, 115mph. 😁I then had to slow down. 😒 

I did something thing similar(but slower) driving to my engagement meal with my elderly mother in the passenger seat of my Princess.

I was late, so pushing it, but got a bit of a telling off when she realised we were doing 90.

[Sigmund Fraud]

3 hours ago, barrett said:

The Super is hands down the best 'old car' I've driven (and I've driven quite a few) in terms of real-world performance, handling and sophistication.

Have you driven an early Alfetta ? They are even better !

The people making a big deal of the engineering of the P6 should have a look at what the Italians were doing at the same time...

[artdjones]

There's a lovely P6 for sale on Car and Classic at the moment in Lisbon. €22900.

https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1807814

Which is a lot more than any UK prices. It seems like P6s get more appreciation from foreign enthusiasts than British ones, many of whom take them for granted.

[artdjones]

11 hours ago, Sigmund Fraud said:

Have you driven an early Alfetta ? They are even better !

The people making a big deal of the engineering of the P6 should have a look at what the Italians were doing at the same time...

The Alfa Romeo saloons of 1963 when the P6 came out still had live rear axles and drum brakes at the back. The Fiat 2300 used cart springs at the back. The only comparable car to the P6 for engineering from Italy was the Lancia Flavia.

The Alfetta didn't come out until 9 years after the P6.  And then proceeded to rust like fury and fall apart.

[Sigmund Fraud]

11 minutes ago, artdjones said:

The Alfa Romeo saloons of 1963 when the P6 came out still had live rear axles and drum brakes at the back. The Fiat 2300 used cart springs at the back. The only comparable car to the P6 for engineering from Italy was the Lancia Flavia.

The Alfetta didn't come out until 9 years after the P6.  And then proceeded to rust like fury and fall apart.

Agreed that the Giulia suspension was pretty conventional, in fact early domestic market models had drums at the front and a column shift - not terribly sporting. The engines were superb, though, and the primitive suspension did work really well in practice (as it did in fast Escorts) - a late Giulia is an extremely competent car for its time.

The P6 was sold alongside the Alfetta for a whole 5 years, so I don't think it's unfair to compare the two. Rust and a myriad of electrical problems did plague the Alfa, but I don't think the Rover was exactly immune to either of those 😉

The problem of Alfas is that they never sold in huge numbers in the UK, and are consequently really, really expensive nowadays. Parts are also eye-wateringly expensive. So buying a nicely preserved P6, like @N Dentressangle has done, makes total sense.

[artdjones]

4 minutes ago, Sigmund Fraud said:

Agreed that the Giulia suspension was pretty conventional, in fact early domestic market models had drums at the front and a column shift - not terribly sporting. The engines were superb, though, and the primitive suspension did work really well in practice (as it did in fast Escorts) - a late Giulia is an extremely competent car for its time.

The P6 was sold alongside the Alfetta for a whole 5 years, so I don't think it's unfair to compare the two. Rust and a myriad of electrical problems did plague the Alfa, but I don't think the Rover was exactly immune to either of those 😉

The problem of Alfas is that they never sold in huge numbers in the UK, and are consequently really, really expensive nowadays. Parts are also eye-wateringly expensive. So buying a nicely preserved P6, like @N Dentressangle has done, makes total sense.

The Rovers did have rust problems, but I never saw a seven year old one with the bottom six inches of every door skin missing, which I have with an Alfetta. And the Rovers could have electrical problems, like all cars, but it wasn't endemic.

Interesting that they both had a De Dion rear end, in the Alfa's case with rear gearbox, which may have sounded like a good idea, but meant that the lovely gear change of earlier cars was lost. 

[artdjones]

12 minutes ago, Sigmund Fraud said:

and a column shift - not terribly sporting.

The Italians thought a column shift was more sporting than a floor shift in the 50s. The likes of Nardi used to produce column shift kits for cars with floor shifts.

[Sigmund Fraud]

4 minutes ago, artdjones said:

Interesting that they both had a De Dion rear end, in the Alfa's case with rear gearbox, which may have sounded like a good idea, but meant that the lovely gear change of earlier cars was lost. 

I didn't mind the gear change feel in mine... But I did mind that damned second gear synchro (another common issue, admittedly).

2 minutes ago, artdjones said:

The Italians thought a column shift was more sporting than a floor shift in the 50s. The likes of Nardi used to produce column shift kits for cars with floor shifts.

I didn't know that... Every day is school day on AS !

[barrett]

56 minutes ago, artdjones said:

The Italians thought a column shift was more sporting than a floor shift in the 50s. The likes of Nardi used to produce column shift kits for cars with floor shifts.

Sorry, again, I'm not trying to have an argument on the internet for no reason but it's the opposite way round. Our Aurelia has a Nardi gearchange kit which replaces the standard column-shift with a floor shifter. The sportier Aurelias (coupe and roadster) tended to have Nardi floor shifts. I've never heard of Nardi producing a kit that did the opposite (most Italian cars had standard column shifts in the 50s and 60s anyway). I think generally in Europe column-changes don't have a reputation for stodginess or whatever like they do here, probably because in Europe they managed to make really lovely fast column changes, so they're seen as fairly 'sporty' anyway.

[N Dentressangle]

Well, if anyone would like to straight swap me a similar condition Alfetta, Giulia, 2002 or something then I'll consider it 😉

Anyhow, don't know about anyone else but I tend to learn by making mistakes and then fixing the mess. When buying a car I know bugger all about, I do a bit of research and then just go for it. Then I find out all the things I should have checked before buying the bloody thing. Sound familiar?

This week I read dire warnings about lifting P6 back seat bases and looking for rust. Obviously I didn't do this before I bought the car - where's the fun* in that? I had an extra cup of tea for courage, and pulled the n/s base to see what was behind door #1:

Bingo! Bit of surface rust, but nothing tragic. The seat base floor also looked good:

How about door #2, the o/s?

As you can see, the insulation here was damp, and there's some surface rust starting to take hold, but I reckon I've caught it just in time. I've put a dehumidfier in the car to dry everything out and will rub it all down and repaint. Phew. Under the centre was good too:

Boot floor is perfect:

I did find this weird bit of foam rubber in there. It looked like it might go under or around the spare somehow, but I can't see how that might fit. Here it is:

Any ideas WTF it is and where it belongs?

[Surface Rust]

If you want further confirmation/ reassurance remove the bolt on sill covers and check the sill structure. Probably plaster some rust prevention around when you're in there.

I love P6s, probably recounted this tale before, but I spent my entire first paycheck after graduating on a 3500 and never regretted it!

[SiC]

2 hours ago, N Dentressangle said:

Sound familiar?

No. I tend to do the opposite!

Spend ages reading up every little minor problem point on an old vehicle until I'm both utterly bored but also obsessed about getting one. Then finally just buy the cheapest example sight unseen or barely a look because I get too excited about finally getting one, then find it has everything possible wrong with it! Or I strike lucky and has barely anything wrong with it. 😄 

(Or I'll finally get something I've wanted for years by just buy it off you when you've sorted it all already ... like the Spitty 😉)

Yours looks pretty decent tbh. Especially going by other horror stories I've seen on FB groups. I think these are a car that hide rust well. 

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

On 07/01/2025 at 21:20, N Dentressangle said:

They're deffo vinyl - I had a go at cleaning them today. Apparently Flash Magic Eraser is the way to clean them. I'll pick one up tomorrow from Sains, unless anyone has any better ideas?

The facings are leather, the sides and rear panels are vinyl. 

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

About the badge being in the wrong place, I used to see it a lot - I had a folder on my laptop where I saved every picture I found of the badge being in the wrong square. I called it Grille Badge Bingo and I hoped to find a photo of a badge in every square on the grille. Unfortunately before I could I had to delete the pictures to make room for pornography.