A Framing...The facts please.

[warren t claim]

What is the law regarding A framing a car. Does it need tax and an MOT as it is still in contact with the ground? What about when the A frame is detatched from the towing vehicle? Is it legal to leave the towed car in the street?

[Mr Lobster]

If its wheels touch the ground then to be legal it should have MOT, tax and insurance. Similarly, you can't leave an un MOT'd / taxed / insured car in the street with an A attached and hope to get away with it.However, it seems that the law is interpreted somewhat differently and that most plods aren't actually aware of what the law is regarding A frames.

[warren t claim]

However, it seems that the law is interpreted somewhat differently and that most plods aren't actually aware of what the law is regarding A frames.

Knowing my luck I would find a hobby bobby who is trying to earn enough brownie points for a transfer to traffic.

[Andrew353w]

However, it seems that the law is interpreted somewhat differently and that most plods aren't actually aware of what the law is regarding A frames.

/\ /\ The above! I use one quite a bit and have had "a friendly word" with a "rat" (Police nick-name for traffic cops) who told me the following, which might help: ANY vehicle on the public highway must have valid MOT/Tax/insurance (exception for MOT being if being taken to & from a PRE-ARRANGED test) So if you use an "A" frame the towed vehicle should have the necessary MOT & insurance. In addition, a trailer over 750Kg must be braked (under 750kg doesn't have to, but many are) which suggests most cars towed with an A frame would contravene this. Furthermore, the trailer should not weigh more than 75% of the towing vehicle's kerb weight. You should display a light board and number plate attached to the rear of the towed vehicle.All the above not withstanding, he added that most coppers wouldn't know all that, and if you looked as if you knew what you were doing you'd probably get away with it! Added to which, if you're "recovering a vehicle to a place of safety" I expect you'd be OK if everything looked reasonable.Hope this helps!

[dollywobbler]

The 75% thing is a bit weird when you consider that a 2 ton Rangie can tow 3.5 tonnes braked according to Land Rover. The whole towing/a-framing thing is horrendously messy. Gawd knows how anyone is actually able to say categorically what is/isn't allowed.

[Mr Lobster]

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that the whole combination shouldn't be more than 3.5t or you could end up with prosecution for driving 'other than in accordance with the licence' or whatever depending on when you passed your test.

[simmo]

4x4s are different for some reason they always have a higher GVT (train weight) when I did MOTs were they classed as a dual purpose vehicle.The extra long LandRover (160?) we had had a Gross Train Weight of 7.5 tonne so overload that a tadge towing and you would need a class 3 LGV licence

[wuvvum]

I got a tug once on the A17 - I was driving a Saab 9000 with a chuff-off great heavy duty beavertail plant trailer on which was perched a Maserati Biturbo. Copper pulled me because the reg on the trailer didn't match the one on the car (I'd originally been planning to pull the trailer with the CX, but then the wiper packed up); he gave me a fixed penalty ticket for that, but he did also mention that he thought I was probably over my maximum towing weight (I was, by about half a tonne...) but the Saab looked to be managing OK so he wasn't going to do anything about it.I don't know why 4x4s can legally tow so much more - most big 4x4s have a 3.5-tonne towing limit, even when they don't weigh anywhere near that. I have to say, though, that having had (at least) 3.5 tonnes behind a SWB Trooper (Saviem on humungous trailer) they do cope far better than a normal car with towing 1 1/2 times their own weight.I've only ever had three cars on a dolly - a Lancia Gamma, an A40 and an Avenger - and all three were relatively local; don't know if I'd want to tow with a dolly or an A-frame over a long distance. Although the chap who bought my Rayton Fissore Magnum A-framed it away behind his camper van, and the German gent who bought my Range Rover was going to A-frame an ex-MOD 109 Land Rover back to east Germany behind it...

[warren t claim]

I think you may find a reasonably large car on the back of a Transit crew cab recovery truck takes you over 3.5tons.

[simmo]

I think you may find a reasonably large car on the back of a Transit crew cab recovery truck takes you over 3.5tons.

A large car even on a noirmal cabbed diesel tranny will usually be over on the front axle weight, They usually giv e you 10% before they nick you.The latest thing the law seems to be into is insecure loads, some expect a tie down on all wheels and you can't count the winch as one. I usaully just stap each of the fronts and one on the back axle/beam.

[warren t claim]

You'd think there would be a market for self drive hire recovery trucks.

[dollywobbler]

You'd think there would be a market for self drive hire recovery trucks.

Problem is, I reckon they'd all come back absolutely shagged. Even trailers seem to have one hell of a rough time of it judging by some I've hired - some seemed pretty much brand new but had chunks taken out of them and bits missing.

[simmo]

You'd think there would be a market for self drive hire recovery trucks.

Problem is, I reckon they'd all come back absolutely shagged. Even trailers seem to have one hell of a rough time of it judging by some I've hired - some seemed pretty much brand new but had chunks taken out of them and bits missing.

You do see hire ones but these may be only hired to the trade, mate uses one but he is a motor-bike dealer

[pogweasel]

A-frames are for winners, end of story. Though I do think Andrew353w deserves an extra prize for using a 1300cc skoda... that it looks a bit like an old AA wagon and has copious beacons on probably helps though.... I've only ever used hefty/grunty wagons to a-frame with (Focus TD wagon, Volvo 245, BMW 325i Touring) and tugged old stuff whih tends to be light - only thing that ever gave grief was a Mk5 escort, but it did also have bald tyres and shagged lower arms...

[mk1_4dr]

Bit of a random question, but here seems as good-a-place as any.In august we'll be looking to take both cars down to RRG in zummerzet from Leeds. Do we think my e30 will be up to towing the escort? Im not sure what the escort weights, but I can't be a lot, surely it should be man enough?

[warren t claim]

Bit of a random question, but here seems as good-a-place as any.In august we'll be looking to take both cars down to RRG in zummerzet from Leeds. Do we think my e30 will be up to towing the escort? Im not sure what the escort weights, but I can't be a lot, surely it should be man enough?

When did you pass your driving test? Before 1997? Will you be using a trailer or an A frame?

[pogweasel]

My E30 was actually pretty good at the A-frame action, don't know if it helped that it was (i) a 2.5 (ii) a manual (iii) a touring.

 

Though yorkshire > somerset at 50mph* is going to be mega-chore-somequite fuel-heavy and probably , I would try to rope in an extra driver...

 

*Did once "accidentally" get up to about 75 dragging an old Hillman behind the Ford, that got very terrifying when it all started snaking going downhill

[Lankytim]

Im going to upset a few people and say what ive been told "by people in the know"If a vehicle is being towed it gets classed as a trailer. It doesnt need MOT or TAX and the insurance is covered by the vehicle towing it. It does need to be in a safe condition and roadworthy however, so no bald tyres, sharp edges or bits hanging off. Of course, any trailer over 750Kgs needs to be braked, most cars exceed this and would be classed as an unbraked trailer, possibly leading to problems with the law. If you were to leave the A framed car disconnected in the street then it would need TAX, MOT and insurance like any other car.A mechanic mate of mine had an un- TAXed and MOTd shitter parked in the street outside his house for a few months, he got around the lack of legality by attatching a tow rope from the front of the car to the rear of a road legal car. Plod wasnt happy and asked him to shift it several times as it was pretty unsightly- they told him they couldnt actually do him for it though as it was "on tow" from a road legal car. Eventually the shitter got vandalised and they stung him for no rear numberplate. This was a few years ago mind so the law could have moved on.This is the law how I undertand it, no doubt people will tell me im totally wrong but Ive heard so many conflicting stories, both from "bar room experts" and from traffic cops that its very difficult to make the distinction between truth and bollocks.I guess it just depends on the copper who sees the A framed car and which law he thinks it comes under, I think there are conflicting laws that could apply at the same time. Ive never been stopped with an A frame anyway.

[mk1_4dr]

Well mines a touring also, unfortunately in 2lt auto flavour. I have got a quote for hiring a trailer for the weekend and it was coming out pretty reasonable, and as far as fuel, it won't be worse than the escort thats for sure.We would be travelling down in convoy with a few other cars and I can't imagine they'd be much impressed with 50mph progress, wouldn't bother me like, just set off an hour or two earlier Looks like we'll be sacking that idea off then, leaving the e30 at home and just loading the escort up.

[Station]

Going to get an A-frame soon. Have an Astra for this, and it can tow 1500kgs, so it should be okay for most stuff.

 

Hope nothing like this happens:

 

 

[wuvvum]

Hope nothing like this happens:

It probably will if you try to tow a 1500kg trailer up a 1:4 hill. That's the problem with overrun brakes - they only work going forwards.I've had two major "snaking" episodes - once on a downhill stretch of the M11 with a Mk4 Zodiac behind a 740 estate - that one was pretty frightnening, I was snaking across both lanes and the hard shoulder, had two artics almost go into the back of me. The other was at about 30mph with a DS20 behind a Saab 900 - the DS was a non-starter and had nowhere to attach a winch cable on the front, so got winched on backwards, so the engine ended up hanging over the back of the trailer and made the whole thing bloody unstable. Fortunately I only had to trailer that about ten miles.

[dieselnutjob]

Furthermore, the trailer should not weigh more than 75% of the towing vehicle's kerb weight.

I don't think that's true. It's quite common and legal in caravaning circles to go upto 100%. The upper legal weight limit for a braked trailer is that set by the manufacturer upto 3500kg or 7500kg (combined vehicle and trailer) depending on your license.The maximum weights set by the manufacturers are usually unsafe though in my opinion.An A frame is different though, as I'm guessing that it's not going to get in a snake. The problem will be stopping, and it will be definitely over the 750kg unbraked limit.This might be made legal if a driver is sat in the towed vehicle pressing the brake pedal. Instead of being a trailer it might just become a fancy towrope from a legal perspective. But I'm just guessing.

[Torsten2001]

You'd think there would be a market for self drive hire recovery trucks.

Funny you should say that, through work we are financing a 7.5 tonne Mercedes recovery truck for a local garage, he activly wants me to find some self drive hire work for it so if anyone has a C1 category on their licence watch this space!

[dieselnutjob]

there is always the catch all of not being in proper control of a vehicle, or driving without due car and attention if a policeman doesn't like it but doesn't know the specific laws.I don't know if dollies have brakes? if so then that might be more legal. the AA and RAC seem to use them a lot more these days

[whitevanman]

Right, I can't be arsed finding the last thread about this, but....Lanky Tim is correct in what he says, I was pulled on the M6 J13 a couple of years ago and was subjected to a Vosa/Plod going over, got ticketed and everything, vehicle had to be left where they checked etc, etc....as the law standsThe vehicle becomes a trailer as the A frame is a rigid hitch....Trailer laws therefor apply re lights, No plates etc ....You have an HGV licence so weight is not an issue with a Transit and vehicle in tow....You can tow a vehicle over 750kg if you have either a braked A frame OR you have a person in the towed vehicle operating the brakes....While I was told there are grey areas in the law, the above will apply if you get stopped by the C***s or Vosa, ordinary plod probably wont know most of it and may have other ideas about legalities

[Andrew353w]

I've read all the above comments and it's clear that, with the best of intentions and with a genuine wish to remain within the law, there's several thoughts on the whole "A" frame thing!I suppose the final judgement as to what you can and can't do with an "A" frame would only come from when and if someone's taken to court on a specific point of law and the case is proved one way or the other; I wouldn't want anyone, let alone a member of Autoshite.com to have to be this guinea-pig, though! I'm a member of the R.A.C., who offer a legal advice service. later today I'll give them a call & see what they say. Who knows, they might muddy the waters even further.....

[nigel bickle]

Its never been clear -but I've not yet been stopped.I've towed a lot-all over Europe...I'm lucky enough to have the choice of trailer, dolly or A frame -and will always default to A frame if I can. Less weight on the towcar, lower centre of gravity & the wheels are nearer each corners (rendering snaking less of an issue).Its more comfortable ''at speed'' -and definitely feels safest (-when setup properly!)Yesterday Regie & I dollied the R14 home. Traffic plod (with ANPR) passed us near Swindon, towing a car (2 wheels on road)that hasn't seen been legal in over 10 years, laden to the roof with its broken cousin, travelling in excessof 60 thingies.We got a glance -no more. It looked 'right'So-broadly-I think thats the issue. .If its properly secured, towed 'sensibly' they'll let you go. If you're taking the piss- expect a pull.

[Lankytim]

Whitevanman- Ive heard its an offence to carry passengers in a trailer, so having someone in the A framed car to operate the brakes would be a no-no too. Braked dollies are no good either as it would mean only 2 out of the 4 wheels would be braked. Better than none but still not good enough to satisfy the VOSA bods. I *think* you can get braked A frames. These work by operating the footbrake inside the car somehow. I guess these would satisfy every aspect of the law. However Ive never seen a braked A frame, only heard of them, so they may not even exist. Actually, I think a braked A frame uses a hydraulic brake cylinder on the hitch- which is unlawful. They need to be rod operated.All this is before the rules that state that you need a second method of attatchment, on the hitch end you would use a chain going from the A onto the tow bar- incase the hitch failed, but on the other end theres chains wrapped around wishbones and the like. Technically I think you'd need a secondary chain fron the A framed car onto the A frame. My head hurts!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I've never had a police or VOSA problem with my many UK and international A-frame exploits either though i'm sure I am breaking the letter of the law somewhere. My feeling about it is, as long as youre not taking the piss either by horribly overloading your tow car, towing some vile old wreck that looks like its just come out of a swamp, or flashing folk out the way at 80mph, i.e. you look like you're taking the job seriously, you should be alright. As bickle says, the above rules notwithstanding, it certainly seems the safest and most stable way to tow another car around. Having said that, I use the A-frame with the feeling in the back of my mind that eventually I am gonna get a pull from a copper who's having a bad day who will make me unhitch it and get a recovery contractor to finish the job at a cost of £500 or something. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it I suppose, I have defo had more than £500 worth of shite-based sheer joy thanks to the A-frame so will have to weigh it all up then.

[whitevanman]

Whitevanman- Ive heard its an offence to carry passengers in a trailer, so having someone in the A framed car to operate the brakes would be a no-no too. Braked dollies are no good either as it would mean only 2 out of the 4 wheels would be braked. Better than none but still not good enough to satisfy the VOSA bods. I *think* you can get braked A frames. These work by operating the footbrake inside the car somehow. I guess these would satisfy every aspect of the law. However Ive never seen a braked A frame, only heard of them, so they may not even exist. Actually, I think a braked A frame uses a hydraulic brake cylinder on the hitch- which is unlawful. They need to be rod operated.All this is before the rules that state that you need a second method of attatchment, on the hitch end you would use a chain going from the A onto the tow bar- incase the hitch failed, but on the other end theres chains wrapped around wishbones and the like. Technically I think you'd need a secondary chain fron the A framed car onto the A frame. My head hurts!

YUP...I know, but thats what the Vosa/plod said...... I've got a braked A Frame after the pull I did put pictures up, I'll do so again later