1963 Mercedes Benz 190DC Fintail. Big oil leaks.

[Talbot]

Sounds to me like you need:

Apparently they are a Herd, a Rookery or a Bob of seals, depending on whether they are in the sea or on land.  But you clearly need a fair few!

 

Actually, looking at that sump and making assumptions about mercedes from the early 60s.. it's likely that all of the seals you're looking at are going to be rope seals, which have probably dried out and shrunk a little.  Quite common. It's quite possible (and likely) that a modern rubber lip seal can be fitted in the place of a rope seal, which will mean no issues with shrinkage/drying out in storage.  Yes, it might be a bit of an effort, but it also might make this lovely old Merc significantly less leaky.

Ahem.

[Dyslexic Viking]

I'm considering how to deal with this.

I have some health challenges so working on the ground under a car is painful and will take time as I would have to have days to recover afterwards a day of doing so. The best way I see it if I were to do most of the work myself is to pull the engine out. And I have a engine crane. It would also make it possible to address other things like the engine mounts being not in good shape and with the engine out I could then replace them. Another thing is the clutch as the clutch hydraulics were broken and barely working when I bought the car so I suspect the clutch doesn't have much left of it so having the engine out would give me acess to it. Could then also get good access to the firewall and be able to seal it better.

But I've never taken an engine out of a car before, so the job seems a bit overwhelming and intimidating.

The other solution is to try to find someone else to do the job. The biggest problem here is finding someone willing and competent to do the job.

I'm thinking a lot now about how to move forward with this.

[Scruffy Bodger]

Taking an engine out with a crane is a doddle as long as you have a smooth floor, if it's a ridged one like in an old cow shed it's a ball ache, trust me. You just go steady at it and think about the angles you need to come out at, adjusting the chains accordingly. A RWD layout is easier than FWD in my experience.

I used to help a mate out on his farm as a kid. Two 15 year olds managed to break a tractor in half to change the clutch using no special tools or manual. Just some concrete blocks and some metal sheet with a trolley jack sat on top with a few spanners and sockets. You'll be fine.

[Talbot]

2 hours ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

But I've never taken an engine out of a car before, so the job seems a bit overwhelming and intimidating.

a 1960s car is definitely the way to learn though.  Everything will be straightforward.  All the fastenings will be nuts and bolts.  No torx, no E-torx, nothing fancy.  Access will likely be fantastic by modern standards.

The main thing is to work methodically.  Do one job at a time and complete it.  Disconnect and remove as much as you can from the front to give you space.

I'd suggest planning for at least a couple of weeks for this job.  Do it in small chunks.  Labell everything.  Use lots of individual pots for bolts and fixings.  Egg cartons are brilliant for this as you can keep them in order too.

Do you know anyone who has done this sort of work before and can advise you in person on how to go about it?  A bit of hands-on advice will help a lot.

[Dyslexic Viking]

Thanks both of you. The garage has a cement floor that is a bit rough but should work fine with the engine crane I hope. And I don't have anyone with experience who can help, only my dad who did change some engines in VW Beetles and Buses, but it was probably done under large amounts of beer over 40 years ago so I doubt he remembers much of it.

Taking my time is probably a good idea as I can rush into things and I need to gather parts and get more tools which can also take time depending on money. And speaking of tools, I'm considering getting one of these below for the engine crane, they don't cost much and I think it would help a lot. But if anyone has any experience that suggests I shouldn't buy one, I'd love to hear it.

[LightBulbFun]

i'd also suggest if you have a Digital camera or modern smart phone with a camera, is to photograph the living daylights out of everything as you go through things, so you have a bunch of reference material you can refer back to, if say your looking at a stack of different funny washers and cannot recall which order they are supposed to go back in or the such like  

[Yoss]

Just to give you some encouragement I had no mechanical knowledge before I did my first engine swap. I'd done basic servicing, spark plugs , air filter but that was about it. But then looking in the Haynes manual engine removal only seemed to consist of about six paragraphs so I thought how hard can it be. 

This was my first Triumph 1300 but the engine lost most of its compression and I really struggled to get up a hill on the way home one night. Then very soon after my friend who had a nice 1300 TC managed to drive it in to a lamppost sideways. So we thought we had nothing to lose. And this all took place in a council car park. 

 

My friend Barry, who crashed the blue one can be seen lurking between the two Triumphs. Our neighbour had that Chevette for years. 

I spent several days undoing everything and fortunately another one of the neighbours ran a toolhire business so once I was ready he brought the crane home and we did the swap in one day and then I spent a few more days doing everything up again. 

Another action shot. The good engine has been lifted out and the crane was attached to bad engine which was lifted straight in to the blue car then the good engine was transferred in to the white one. 

You can see the damage here. It had a perfect three sided imprint of a hexagonal concrete lamp post up the whole height of the car. 

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread too much, just to say we did this with no previous experience. There were two of us but I've done it on my own plenty of times since. I'd just say, like others have, take your time, get everything undone first. You have done lots of other jobs on the car so I think you know your way around it, you should be fine. 

[captain_70s]

3 hours ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

And speaking of tools, I'm considering getting one of these below for the engine crane, they don't cost much and I think it would help a lot. But if anyone has any experience that suggests I shouldn't buy one, I'd love to hear it.

If you can afford one I'd go for it.

You can achieve the same thing with ratchet straps/old seatbelts/rotten rope but if you're working solo or have limited mobility it is hassle you can do without.

Getting the right angle is probably the most awkward bit of removing/installing an engine.

The last one I did was exceptionally easy as the entire front of the car came off (and I didn'thave to remove it...)

I don't know if the Benz is similar, if the radiator and top support bar are removable?

The Dolly was a bit more conventional, where the engine has to drop in from above at an angle as none of the front panels come off, but it is only small...

[Dyslexic Viking]

2 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

If you can afford one I'd go for it.

I can buy the one in picture from a department store here for £32, which I don't think is expensive.

2 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

I don't know if the Benz is similar, if the radiator and top support bar are removable?

The radiator support bar is fixed and cannot be removed on this one unfortunately.

I just ordered new engine mounts and a full engine gasket set from DP Depot for 266 Euros plus Norwegian VAT, which I don't think was bad.

[Dyslexic Viking]

One thing that came to mind is the gasket on the crankshaft, it seems to be some kind of rope gasket on the rear? I'm more unsure about the front.

 

And on the drawing of the engine below it looks like there is the same gasket over the crankshaft at the rear. And the gasket at the front would most likely involve removing the pulley, which I would prefer not to do.  I have to make a decision about whether I can do any of this as this is clearly very complex engine for the time.

[Dyslexic Viking]

If anyone is wondering why I put so much thought into this and considering whether I can do this or not, below is the amount of complexity I am comfortable with and like.

[captain_70s]

The important thing to remember is these engines were largely assembled by hand by people who weren't engineers or master technicians.

Place X in position Y, tighten 4 bolts to torque Z, engine goes along the line to the next guy.

All the parts were designed and machined to high tolerance, but that isn't a concern for dismantling/reassembly.

If in doubt take photos of everything, write down notes, put nuts and bolts in labelled containers, use a paint pen to note alignment of components.

Or, do what I do and scatter everything across the floor of your dirty garage and forget how everything goes back together.

Even that engine went back together and ran well, for a couple of years...

[lisbon_road]

Removing the pulley should be ok. Often easiest to undo the fixing while in the car as you can put it in gear. Probably not too tight being an older çar.

Remember @Talbotcomments about lip seals, it might be possible to fit them in place of the rope seals which always leak. 

I'm sure you can do this and we are all here to help. You and this car are key parts of the site.

[Talbot]

47 minutes ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

One thing that came to mind is the gasket on the crankshaft, it seems to be some kind of rope gasket on the rear? I'm more unsure about the front.

And on the drawing of the engine below it looks like there is the same gasket over the crankshaft at the rear. And the gasket at the front would most likely involve removing the pulley, which I would prefer not to do.  I have to make a decision about whether I can do any of this as this is clearly very complex engine for the time.

 

Yes.  In the days before rubber lip-seals, a rope seal was used.  This would be wetted with oil to form a rudamentry seal against rotating components (and also sometimes as a gasket against stationary items).  They always weep (did when they were new) and do wear out and need replacing fairly frequently.  This is part of the reason why lip-seals were immediately adopted when they became available, as they work so much better and last a lot longer.

You will indeed need to remove the front pulley, but it's not that difficult.  You'll need the right size socket and a nice big breaker bar.  It's a shame you're so far away as I likely have the right size socket and a 3/4" drive power bar which would take that off with ease.

Whilst it probably was a very advanced engine in it's day, it's still 60s technology, which is quite basic really.  Mercedes of the era would tend to use tried-and-tested technology, so it's all well understood.

The engine stabiliser is quite a good plan, although I have to say I have never used one.  I always just use multiple ratchet straps, especially on a longitudinal engine like this, as it will likely just lift straight up.  A decent afternoon's work would have that engine out.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

If anyone is wondering why I put so much thought into this and considering whether I can do this or not, below is the amount of complexity I am comfortable with and like.

you jest! but I genuinely found it easier to remove the engine from my Invacar then it was trying to remove the tyre from the rim of a wheel barrow wheel to get at the inner tube

[lesapandre]

Just by way of advice. The car standing over winter the seals will have 'dried out' a bit - I'd first try parking up in the sun for a few hours and then running the engine a bit and nipping up any bolts.

What oil is it running? A traditional single grade or other 'historic mix' rather than a modern multi-grade might help.

On the diff again a non-EP traditional oil might help - I run that in my 1980 Landcruiser- EP is not suitable for mine in diff or gearbox.

Finally all old cars drip a bit in my experience - I've got an oil drip tray to put under when parked up and live with a few leaks as long as its not getting on the exhaust or braking components.

Of course it may be beyond that but if you can defer pulling it apart this summer enjoy the time.

[Dyslexic Viking]

The engine runs on a Motul 15W-50 classic oil and the rear axle Kroon Oil 90 weight gear oil intended for old cars.

And I'll try tomorrow to clean the big engine oil leak and check the bolts if I can.

And I stupidly emptied a bottle with rear main seal fix in it. I haven't run the engine with this but the more I think about it I'm afraid it will affect something negative so I'll do an oil change.

[lesapandre]

Have a look what the Mercedes Workshop Manual says about oil weights. 

15/50 sounds right for the engine but check. 

[Rocket88]

32 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Have a look what the Mercedes Workshop Manual says about oil weights. 

15/50 sounds right for the engine but check. 

A bit of a bodge, but I’d be tempted to put 20/50 oil in it, and try some Lucas ( the American lot) stop leak

[Talbot]

31 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

A bit of a bodge, but I’d be tempted to put 20/50 oil in it, and try some Lucas ( the American lot) stop leak

Stop-leak is designed to swell rubber seals to get a tiny bit more life out of them.  With rope seals, it will likely have zero effect.

[captain_70s]

17 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

A bit of a bodge, but I’d be tempted to put 20/50 oil in it, and try some Lucas ( the American lot) stop leak

I was of the understanding that the stop leak type stuff causes rubber seals to swell up? Which won't help in the case of rope seals.

Also, surely 20w50 oil will be the same viscosity when hot (presumably when it leaks the most) as 15w50?

 

Edit - Talbot beat me to it. 😂

[Rocket88]

Fair comment 

[Scruffy Bodger]

The only leak I'd be worried about is the one onto the tyre, just keep putting more oil in and monitor it regularly. I used to use a Vitalite tub on my kit car before I cut the sump and adapted it. I'd park up at work in the morning and pour it back in the engine before I left  to stop getting a bollocking for ruining the parking area.

20w50 was always the go to for old engines, I never ran anything else in multiple Pinto engined cars and Series III land rover. They got thrashed horrendously, one did fail I admit but only with a mate driving it and the throttle stuck flat out, he clutched it and couldn't find the ignition switch. How much time does it sit cold as opposed to warm, especially on a car like this? Plenty of time for gravity to do its thing.

Oil is the life blood of any old car, just make sure it doesn't run dry.

[lisbon_road]

Right to say that 15W50 and 20W50 are the same (50) at running temperature when most of the leaks occur.  

The 15 will be better at low temperatures and get round the engine faster so I think it is a good choice and have used it in the past myself for older cars, but really, it won't make a lot of difference.

Want a total aside?  The only example I can think of where rope seals are better than lip seals ( or others) is on fire fighting foam pumps.  On these, they don't get used very often as only run up when tested or when there is a fire.  Rope seals tend to drip a bit, but generally don't fail catastrophically.  In contrast, lip seals or mechanical seals might fail catastrophically.  No-one is too bothered about a few drips - you're spraying the stuff everywhere - so the rope seal is chosen, as a catastrophic failure when fighting a fire isn't acceptable.  

[Talbot]

Just noticed, rather interestingly, that this uses ricardo-type pre-combustion chambers, very much akin to an XUD engine and others of the same era, so yes this would have been quite the advanced engine in it's day.  It's about 20 years ahead of where other mainstream diesel manufacturers were.  Later Mercedes tended to use an in-cylinder pre-combustion chamber (OM60x)  This one is more similar to the OM616/617 from the 70s.

That's not to say it will be hard to work on.  It may have been advanced in terms of the combustion chamber design, but it's still a very simple 3-bearing 4-cyl engine that uses periphery technology similar to everything else on the road at the time.

[hairnet]

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/reinz/7748843?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&tb_prm=20315908947&gshp=1&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20320737788&gbraid=0AAAAAoWFwrcHwNr1dd_Jua7WR6s7uuYio&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2MbPBhCSARIsAP3jP9xie7czhjSUYBIznFX7BHCGQ12_hmrMI9Fd8PezIBcqt_iSys0VrmcaAnq9EALw_wcB

[Dyslexic Viking]

4 hours ago, hairnet said:

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/reinz/7748843?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&tb_prm=20315908947&gshp=1&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20320737788&gbraid=0AAAAAoWFwrcHwNr1dd_Jua7WR6s7uuYio&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2MbPBhCSARIsAP3jP9xie7czhjSUYBIznFX7BHCGQ12_hmrMI9Fd8PezIBcqt_iSys0VrmcaAnq9EALw_wcB

I'm really wondering what a gasket set for Suzuki has to do with this one.

[hairnet]

id searched for w110 diesel it says w110 heckflosse 1959-68 at the bottom

 

[hairnet]

does that mean autodoc search is worse than here or ebay

[Dyslexic Viking]

Had some time today so got some things done. Started with the biggest oil leak from the engine and this is what it looked like before I cleaned it. And I thought it was leaking from the sump gasket but it clearly looks like the oil is coming from above which is good.

 

After cleaning and a 30km drive it looks like this and with a small puddle of oil on the ground. The square thing is the engine mount and it is clear that the bolt on the bottom right is wet with oil so are the bolts below on the oil pan so the oil leak comes from above.

 

So now the question is where does the oil come from. If follow the engine up, it is wet but it is hard to see where it is coming from and it seems to be coming from behind the fuel pump.

 

From above, there is clearly a damp area on the engine block behind the diesel pump, see arrow, but there doesn't seem to be anything above it, so I'm struggling to see where this could be coming from.

 

I need to examine pictures of the engines on these to see if there could be a plug in that area or something similar. And I don't think it could be coming from the fuel pump as it has its own oil and isn't much so it would be empty now I would think if it was leaking, and it has oil.

So I have to do some research on this and possibly just keep an eye on it, but oil dripping on the ground is a MOT fail so it needs to be fixed if it doesn't stop.

The bigger problem is the oil leaks on the rear axle. The leak at the front towards the prop shaft leaves a good sized puddle after driving now.

 

And the oil leak at the passenger side, UK driver side, rear wheel is bad now.

 

So I think that priority must be given to the rear axle oil leaks and engine oil leaks must be monitored is the plan now.