N19's fleet - slowly ticking things off

25,402 · February 13

That’s a bit shit!

Not quite sure how that’s happening. Was the old pump ok when you removed it from the car before you started the resto?

From memory, isn’t there a spacer usually fitted between the block and pump? I’m sure it’s to stop heat soaking into the pump as well as act as a spacer. Is your’s there? If it’s not, could it be that missing and causing the pump rod to get smashed because it’s too close to the little pump drive?

4,530 · February 13

The old pump was ok when I removed it from the car. It was still ok, except maybe a bit weak, until I took it off.

There wasn't a spacer on the car although I know some seem to have them. There also wasn't one that came with the pump.

The springs etc seem to be the same length.

25,402 · February 13

2 minutes ago, N19 said:

The old pump was ok when I removed it from the car. It was still ok, except maybe a bit weak, until I took it off.

There wasn't a spacer on the car although I know some seem to have them. There also wasn't one that came with the pump.

The springs etc seem to be the same length.

Very strange. I’ve never seen a pump get mangled like that.
Is everything ok inside the little drive cam hole? Nothing is broken or damaged inside that?

I might have a spare old pump and a spare spacer in the garage. I’ll have a look at mine too and see if the spacer is there or not. I can’t honestly remember if I fitted one when I rebuilt mine, but definitely have come across the spacer before.
But, if the pumps are all the same for pinto’s then something is weird because surely if the spacer exists they either all need it or all don’t!?

4,530 · February 13

I can't see anything out of the ordinary within the hole. The rod moves ok. I would understand if the pumps were of different sizes etc but they seem the same. The thing is, the old pump seemed to have an issue with the notched washer being rounded out too. It holds the spring to the rod, so without it the old pump won't work. I can't quite remember the sequence when we were trying it around new years, it took quite a lot of different attempts to get the fuel pump together and sorted.

I'm going to pop to the motor factors on Saturday with the bits and see if there's anything he has on the shelf that is NOS, and can check it'll fit beforehand. He ran a fleet of pinto-engined transits for many years, so tends to have a lot of stuff kicking around. Or if nothing else, the spring/washer assembly so I can refit the old pump.

If that doesn't work I know some people have gone down the electric route.

25,402 · February 13

Only pics I can find showing my pump aren’t great, but…

These are the old one from the engine before it’s spruce up.

Looking at it, I’m not actually convinced mine has the spacer??

My old Transit mk2 definitely did though.

4,530 · February 13

I've done some digging around through the Burtons catalogue, and threads on the capri forum from 2001(!).

Burtons list the fuel pump I have as being up until 1985 and also fitting early CVH engines. (they don't list another pump for post 1985).

Why is this relevant to a car built in 1979 - because along its life, I think in the early noughties, the original engine was swopped for a later one from a 'D' reg car that had had the valve seats done.

(Burtons also list two lengths for the fuel push rod - 50mm listed as for 1.8/2.0, and 44mm listed for 1.6.)

25,402 · February 14

48 minutes ago, N19 said:

I've done some digging around through the Burtons catalogue, and threads on the capri forum from 2001(!).

Burtons list the fuel pump I have as being up until 1985 and also fitting early CVH engines. (they don't list another pump for post 1985).

Why is this relevant to a car built in 1979 - because along its life, I think in the early noughties, the original engine was swopped for a later one from a 'D' reg car that had had the valve seats done.

(Burtons also list two lengths for the fuel push rod - 50mm listed as for 1.8/2.0, and 44mm listed for 1.6.)

Hmm, maybe there is a difference then.

I wonder if you could fit a spacer then try it? Assuming you could get or borrow a pump the same part number as the one you have.

3,465 · February 14

7 hours ago, N19 said:

car built in 1979 - because along its life, I think in the early noughties, the original engine was swopped for a later one from a 'D' reg car that had had the valve seats done.

(Burtons also list two lengths for the fuel push rod - 50mm listed as for 1.8/2.0, and 44mm listed for 1.6.)

That's a bit of a worry, the rod length isn't as much of an issue as the potential lack of a spacer, the shorter rod would just reduce the pumps output for the 1.6 & low compression/smaller carbed Transit lumps, but in theory the lack of a spacer could result in damage to the cam. Maybe check the cam throw by bunging a bit of dowel in the hole, rotate the engine by rocking it in gear to check the throw, &/or whip the cam cover off to check it visually?

You should be able to dismantle the QH one to try to work out whats causing the issue, not that you should have to, but still..

4,530 · February 14

1 hour ago, uk_senator said:

That's a bit of a worry, the rod length isn't as much of an issue as the potential lack of a spacer, the shorter rod would just reduce the pumps output for the 1.6 & low compression/smaller carbed Transit lumps, but in theory the lack of a spacer could result in damage to the cam. Maybe check the cam throw by bunging a bit of dowel in the hole, rotate the engine by rocking it in gear to check the throw, &/or whip the cam cover off to check it visually?

You should be able to dismantle the QH one to try to work out whats causing the issue, not that you should have to, but still..

There wasn't a spacer on the old pump, when I first bought a new one it came with a spacer but that prevented the pump from engaging at all. Or so it seemed.

Will check the throw, should be easy enough to turn the crankshaft bolt. And will make a couple of phone calls.

25,402 · February 14

Just checked mine - definitely doesn’t have the spacer. On mine it definitely never would have had it either, as I I removed parts when I cleaned up the engine I refitted the new stuff immediately so there’s no way I’d have forgotten or lost a spacer. Everything went back on as it came off.

Definitely worth checking your pump drive though. Something is not right as it’s damaged two different pumps now…

4,530 · February 14

Exactly. I'm not quite sure how or what could happen so wrongly with a flippin' push rod to have mullered two pumps.

I think the spacer/no spacer thing adds another dimension of trickiness to it.

Anyway, I have the original pump (sans spring washer) which did work. Just rung up the motorfactors who put me on hold for 15 seconds before confirming he has a genuine Ford one on the shelf. I'm going to run up there after work.

25,402 · February 14

17 minutes ago, N19 said:

Exactly. I'm not quite sure how or what could happen so wrongly with a flippin' push rod to have mullered two pumps.

I think the spacer/no spacer thing adds another dimension of trickiness to it.

Anyway, I have the original pump (sans spring washer) which did work. Just rung up the motorfactors who put me on hold for 15 seconds before confirming he has a genuine Ford one on the shelf. I'm going to run up there after work.

Got to be worth a try.
The only thing I can think of that could damage your pumps is if the drive cam lobe is somehow mangled and chews up the end of the pump as it rotates. But to do that it must be absolutely annihilated!?

All I did when I fitted mine was put a little blob of grease on the follower on the pump push rod then shoved in the hole and bolted it tight. There’s nothing really that could cause such a problem when it comes to fitting.

All the ones on eBay and Capri Club for Pinto’s seem to be the same and match the part number you posted earlier too.

4,530 · February 14

Yeah, although it doesn't rotate - it pushes in and out - so yes I can see why it might be that it *needs* or *doesn't need* a spacer, but I can't see how it could be that a pump would not pump at all with a spacer, but then without the spacer would annihilate it!

I'm going to pick up the old (working, but weak, and now can't work out how it went together) pump and take that along for comparison.

25,402 · February 14

I’m sure I’ve got an older spare working pump here somewhere. I’ll try to find it.

4,530 · February 14

Bought up the motorfactors entire stock of NOS Pinto fuel pumps.

4,530 · February 14

Not fitted tonight, but I dropped them off in the lockup and had a quick shufty at the rod. It looks ok!

Tomorrow will check on its operation by turning the crankshaft, then fit the new pump, prime it, turn the engine over by hand and verify that the pump works with a pop bottle before connecting it up to the fuel line.

Both of the pumps are OE Ford, bought as part of a batch of 6 in 1993 according to the sticker on the side! God knows what they'd cost off ebay with OMGOSFtax.

4,530 · February 15

Progress update. Not getting very far.

Pump connected up, primed, nothing coming through. Dry as a nuns chuff.

Unbolt, check, reassemble. Still nada.

Fuel is getting to it. When removed and hand pumped it works. The push rod seems to be pushing.

4,530 · February 15

I'm wondering whether the whole spacer thing is confusing matters

Are there pumps which need spacers and ones which don't?

Feeling the new pump I have, it feels like the pump action is just as you press it in. If this is allowing for a spacer and there's not one on my car, the rod will be pumping much further down. And this doesn't have any effect - I've just tried.

4,530 · February 15

I wanted to put a theory of mine into practice. The old pump didn't seem to have a working spring. On the bench, it would pump weakly without the spring, much stronger with the spring.

I refitted it without the spring.

Bingo the engine turns.

so i need to either - find a spring and washer to refit to this pump, OR find a spacer and fit the new pump

A lesson that sitting down with a slice of cake and thinking a problem through logically, pays dividends

3,465 · February 15

I`ve not touched a Pinto for a good 15 years, so I dont remember much about them. I`m struggling to get my head around why the washer & spring are there.. I mean, there's usually a light duty spring built into the pump to return the diaphragm, not sure why they`ve put it there.. looks pretty hefty as well... And where does the washer go, & hows it held in/on? Is it to stop the spring wearing through the alloy pump body, or does it go on the other end of the rod, & if so, hows it held on?
(also, I wanna know which local factors had an original pump, as I need some original Fiat ones!).

4,530 · February 15

So, the rod in the block pushes on the rod in the pump. However they aren't connected, so when the rod retracts, the spring/washer arrangement pulls it back out fully. Without the spring, it'll just move back slightly, so less of a strong supply, which I think was the issue. It makes sense that that'd affect mostly when idling and starting, as the engine wouldn't be turning over as fast.

I got it from Apex Corner, he has all sorts hidden away there! As well as lots of smileyface transits.

25,402 · February 15

8 hours ago, N19 said:

I wanted to put a theory of mine into practice. The old pump didn't seem to have a working spring. On the bench, it would pump weakly without the spring, much stronger with the spring.

I refitted it without the spring.

Bingo the engine turns.

so i need to either - find a spring and washer to refit to this pump, OR find a spacer and fit the new pump

A lesson that sitting down with a slice of cake and thinking a problem through logically, pays dividends

Glad you managed to get to the bottom of this!

The old pump I thought I had might have gotten binned unfortunately. I might have thrown it before we moved house.
But, I’m 99% sure I’ve got some spacers you can have if you want? At least then it’ll give you options and you can use the new pump.
Its meant to be dry tomorrow and I’m not busy so I’ll try to dig them out.

4,530 · February 15

Thanks - any spacers welcomed!

There's a right confusing mixture here. I'm not sure how or why etc but it's frustrating that there seem to be differences in what should be exactly the same item. Since my car never had a spacer in all the time that I'd had it, I naievely assumed that it wouldn't need one. But when I got both pumps next to each other, and worked out where in the 'stroke' the pump squirt was, it was clearly different. So some pumps are spacerless, others need one.

I'm going to see if I can get the spring back on to this pump (the old one) as that should be it working. It seems to be ok as it is mind you, without the spring even there, although I'm not sure I'd want to do any journey outside the local area without sorting it.

25,402 · February 15

7 minutes ago, N19 said:

Thanks - any spacers welcomed!

There's a right confusing mixture here. I'm not sure how or why etc but it's frustrating that there seem to be differences in what should be exactly the same item. Since my car never had a spacer in all the time that I'd had it, I naievely assumed that it wouldn't need one. But when I got both pumps next to each other, and worked out where in the 'stroke' the pump squirt was, it was clearly different. So some pumps are spacerless, others need one.

I'm going to see if I can get the spring back on to this pump (the old one) as that should be it working. It seems to be ok as it is mind you, without the spring even there, although I'm not sure I'd want to do any journey outside the local area without sorting it.

I’ll have a scrounge in there garage tomorrow. I meant to look today, but ended up fitting a kitchen sink that should have been a 30 minute job and actually ended up taking just over 5 hours!

I did/do have a broken pump too. It works ok but the outlet hose fitting has pulled out somehow. I’ll keep an eye out for anything like that.

I must admit, I’m not sure what or why there’s a difference in these pumps either. I’ve never come across this problem on anything Pinto engined, so this is interesting. And a bit strange.
I wonder exactly what your engine is? What it came from originally. There’s part of the engine number you can tell from, if you can decode it. I wonder if certain applications of the engine required different fuel pressures etc etc so ended up slightly different to normal ones. A bit like the low compression commercial versions.

4,530 · February 15

It might be that I'm going completely up the garden path!

I don't suppose it's a 1.6 vs 2.0 thing. The push-rod is, according to Burtons catalogue, 6mm longer on one of them.

The engine that's in my car came from a Capri that was written off. I think it was a D-reg. Let's have a looksee at the documentation.

February 16

On 14/02/2025 at 22:11, N19 said:

Not fitted tonight, but I dropped them off in the lockup and had a quick shufty at the rod. It looks ok!

Tomorrow will check on its operation by turning the crankshaft, then fit the new pump, prime it, turn the engine over by hand and verify that the pump works with a pop bottle before connecting it up to the fuel line.

Both of the pumps are OE Ford, bought as part of a batch of 6 in 1993 according to the sticker on the side! God knows what they'd cost off ebay with OMGOSFtax.

If you turn the engine over does that 'centre' pushrod rise above the mounting face ?

If so, you probably need the spacer (£7-10 on ebay ...)

Have you thought about converting to electric pump ? just a thought ... 🤔

2,314 · February 16

On 30/01/2025 at 23:58, N19 said:

Possibly one for @Wibble with your conservator-esque hat on.? a question about adhesives for plastic, please...

I've a bit of plastic trim which is, in effect, skirting for the passenger seat. There is a split along it, it sits neatly together but is cracked. Non load bearing, purely aesthetic, crack in a reasonably discreet area.

What's the best adhesive to use - araldite? cyanoacrylate? is it advised to somehow "patch" it from behind to give it a bit of strength, or is this ott?

thanks!

Not Wibble, but my 2 cents.

You can get a plastic welding gun that uses the metal clips for reinforcement. You tack these into the crack so it gives it something to hold on to. Available from the usual suspects, it looks like this:

After that, you can either do an actual plastic weld (and reinforce it with mesh for extra strength) with a big soldering iron and some extra material or, what I found ugly but effective is cyanoacrylate with baking soda sprinkled on top to give reinforcement. If it’s not visible on the rear side and you can’t be bothered to weld plastic, that is also very effective.

4,530 · February 16

1 hour ago, Westbay said:

If you turn the engine over does that 'centre' pushrod rise above the mounting face ?

If so, you probably need the spacer (£7-10 on ebay ...)

Have you thought about converting to electric pump ? just a thought ... 🤔

It doesn't seem to. I've ordered up a spacer anyhow.

If I get no luck from any of this, electric pump is the next step.

4,530 · February 16

29 minutes ago, IronStar said:

Not Wibble, but my 2 cents.

You can get a plastic welding gun that uses the metal clips for reinforcement. You tack these into the crack so it gives it something to hold on to. Available from the usual suspects, it looks like this:

After that, you can either do an actual plastic weld (and reinforce it with mesh for extra strength) with a big soldering iron and some extra material or, what I found ugly but effective is cyanoacrylate with baking soda sprinkled on top to give reinforcement. If it’s not visible on the rear side and you can’t be bothered to weld plastic, that is also very effective.

The cyanoacrylate and baking soda tip sounds potentially viable. It's down on the inside of the skirt so won't be visible!

25,402 · February 16

I’ve just dug this out…

Yours if you want it? I think it’s brand new still.

N19's fleet - slowly ticking things off

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