The grumpy thread

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

"Hi Mr LBAU,

I am calling from a medium sized company with 500 employees and a turnover of 280million.

We've noticed your HR work and wondered of you'd like to come and work for us?

We think 18 hours a week would be ideal.

As you seem to like HR work we have no intention of paying you.

Is that ok?"

 

Tell you what, I may well have accepted such an offer, as I have nothing better to do, and as it's a PHAKT that you can get a job much more easily when you're already working (in fact, the one time I applied for a job while working in another, I got one interview from a single application. My current ratio is about 1.5 interview per 100 applications- of course it could've been a coincidence, but I don't think it was). And you won't find me writing contracts of employment for fun during weekends. OK, maybe you will sometimes, but it's not what I normally do with my free time- AS is much better

 

And most photographers are one or two man bands. Its not like there's some big Microsoft corporation providing 50% of all photography services.

 

True but, again, it's not exactly a market experiencing massive growth. Like everyone else, they have to adapt to the changing environment if they are to survive.

 

The truth is that photography is so accessible nowadays...with barriers to entry almost having ceased to exist (as regards both equipment cost and the skill required to take a somewhat passable picture), it's not surprising that prices are dropping to the floor. However, that doesn't make Jon's 'friend' any less of a Juan Kerr.

 

How is the skill becoming more accessible exactly?

 

Mostly because digital technology has eliminated the opportunity cost of taking extra shots. In other words, as long as your time is cheap enough, you can afford to take literally thousands of pictures before choosing the one(s) you want, without having to worry about the costs of the film or its development.

[maxpower]

my grump............ umming and ahhhing over whether to buy shite that was on offer, by the time i make up my mind it's been sold

[Cavcraft]

Fucking eBay. Mobile phone ended, chuffed with the final price, send invoice. Checks e-mails this morning, eBay have messaged me to say highest bidder isn't registered with eBay (how did that happen when they bid?) and not to accept payment as it'll be bent.

Brilliant, never mind I'll send a second chance offer to next highest bidder. Except I can't because eBay have removed the item ('no longer available') so I can't see who else has bid on it

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Surely you could send them a nasty letter giving them a choice between compensating you for the losses they caused to you or see you at the small claims court?

[Cavcraft]

eBay have said listing fees will be refunded but it's still crap as I needed the money and don't especially want to re-list it as it'll probably happen again. They did suggest listing it with a 'buy-it-now' price but (surprise, surprise) that'll cost me more than a 99p start auction.

 

I do have the winning* bidder's name and address though and if I can confirm they are his details then I'm going to have some fun with that.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

But the loss isn't just the listing fees. I'd ask them to guarantee to make up any shortfall between what it was going to sell for and the amount it reaches the second time around. The fact that they let somebody bid on it and subsequently disqualified them from the auction clearly shouldn't be your problem!

[scaryoldcortina]

Using their site means accepting their terms....

 

You will not hold eBay responsible for any loss you may incur as a result of eBay taking any of the actions described in the Abusing eBay section above nor for other users' actions or inactions......

We(including our parent, subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, directors, agents and employees) shall not be liable to you in contract, tort (including negligence) or otherwise for any business losses, such as loss of data, profits, revenue, business, opportunity, goodwill, reputation or business interruption or for any losses which are not reasonably foreseeable by us arising, directly or indirectly, out of your use of or your inability to use of our sites and services.

 

There are a lot of policies that you agree to just by using eVilbay. I also suspect they can pay their legal team a lot more than you can.

 

Also, if you are worried about giving photos and other creative content away, check this one out...

 

When you give us content, you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any and all copyright, publicity, trade marks, database rights and intellectual property rights you have in the content, in any media known now or in the future. In addition, you waive all moral rights you have in the content to the fullest extent permitted by law.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Using their site means accepting their terms....

There are a lot of policies that you agree to just by using eVilbay. I also suspect they can pay their legal team a lot more than you can.

 

Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. I just got 90 quid back from an airline (delayed luggage) just by hinting at the above piece of legislation. As for lawyers, legal claims are assigned to the court local to the plaintiff, meaning that their expenses for coming up to Chester from London or wherever would probably be higher than the value of the claim and, as it's small claims court, probably wouldn't get them even if they won the case. On the basis of managing that risk, they'd just shut up and pay up.

 

Disclaimers: No warranty given or implied, DYOR, IANAL etc.

[Tayne]

 

Tell you what, I may well have accepted such an offer, as I have nothing better to do, and as it's a PHAKT that you can get a job much more easily when you're already working

And most photographers are one or two man bands. Its not like there's some big Microsoft corporation providing 50% of all photography services.

True but, again, it's not exactly a market experiencing massive growth. Like everyone else, they have to adapt to the changing environment if they are to survive.

 

You have a very black and white, corporate-biased view of the world.

 

An ad agency representing BF Goodrich wanted to use this picture.

 

Stuck Zuk by Tayne, on Flickr

 

Michelin (BFG's parent company) has a turnover of 18billion euros. They were not willing to pay for the image.

And don't think that there was some kind of negotiation that broke down as I was demanding too much. They literaly would not have given me a penny.

That isn't the only offer I've had and neither I am on the only one of my photographic friends to get such offers.

 

If I did this for a living and relied on it to keep a roof over my head, that sort of practice would not allow me to survive in a changing world.

 

 

 

How is the skill becoming more accessible exactly?

 

Mostly because digital technology has eliminated the opportunity cost of taking extra shots. In other words, as long as your time is cheap enough, you can afford to take literally thousands of pictures before choosing the one(s) you want, without having to worry about the costs of the film or its development.

 

Whilst high school level economics can be applied to certain situations the concept falls down when a level of creativity is required.

You can mention monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare (I don't believe that one either) and I'll mention PhotogrphyByJoanne.

Here's a time and cash rich oil wife who's set herself up as a photographer and persuaded a few rich contacts to pay the exorbitant fees she charges to walk around their event pressing the shutter button on her very expensive camera (set to fully automatic at all times).

Rather than the wonders you think she should create she produces crap like this.

 

Still want to tell me its a skill you can pick up if you take enough pictures?

[dollywobbler]

Well said Tayne. Pisses me off that more and more people seem to expect something for nothing. It's the same with music. People seem to baulk at paying a few quid to see a live band. How do they expect performers/photographers to survive?

 

Luxo - if you don't mind working for nothing, perhaps you can speak to Tesco/Sainsbury about this 'wonderful' work experience/job seekers' allowance package?

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

I don't view things as black-and-white...As for corporations, corporatism and market distortions, I have been fighting that kind of stuff all my life (spending wads of cash and even standing in elections and such), although from a liberal/libertarian angle as opposed to a left-wing one. There's obviously more to photography than taking pictures on 'fully automatic', but the thing is that 95% of the time you can get a result that's good enough without being a guru. That's why prices have dropped to the floor and why you can't really make a living as a photographer anymore (unless you have good upper-class contacts that give you work in weddings and other social occasions).

 

I didn't make a value judgment on whether the above is good, bad or ugly. I just said it's pointless to hate people for doing something they love.

 

DW, I don't believe in the JSA and have never signed on (before you lot jump at me, that's not meant to be a damnation of people who do sign on- I fully understand what they're going through and may even have to resort to it myself in the future), so it would be a no-go.

[Negative Creep]

When it comes to a mobile wouldn't it be a lot less hassle just to sell it to somewhere like CEX or Envirophone?

[gtd2000]

A mate of mine is a professional photographer (http://www.morozzo.co.uk/) and from what I gather makes a decent living out of his passion.

 

I have to say that there are a lot of people calling themselves "photographers" that simply charge a fee for taking snapshots that are not making a statement.

 

My GF has taken numerous shots of our son that surpass anything a professional photgrapher has composed of him and she merely has in interest in taking pics. In fact, as a result she's done several photo-shoots for friends.

 

Photography really is an art form (when composed properly).

[Tayne]

There's obviously more to photography than taking pictures on 'fully automatic', but the thing is that 95% of the time you can get a result that's good enough without being a guru.

 

Really?

Do you really think that?

 

I didn't make a value judgment on whether the above is good, bad or ugly.

 

Looks to me as though you judged it "good enough".

 

 

Out of curiosity why don't you offer your HR services to big corporations for free?

You said above you'd work for free if asked. Surely offering yourself for free is the best way to find paid work...

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

There's obviously more to photography than taking pictures on 'fully automatic', but the thing is that 95% of the time you can get a result that's good enough without being a guru.

 

Really?

Do you really think that?

 

I don't think that. I don't consider myself to have the requisite expertise to critique the work of photographers, whether they are amateur or professional. However, the non-paying 'clients' do just that in voting with their wallets!

 

I didn't make a value judgment on whether the above is good, bad or ugly.

 

Looks to me as though you judged it "good enough".

 

See above.

 

 

Out of curiosity why don't you offer your HR services to big corporations for free?

You said above you'd work for free if asked. Surely offering yourself for free is the best way to find paid work...

 

Making an offer doesn't mean that it'll be accepted. I have tried, but I have been unsuccessful and it's not hard to see why. I have two HR degrees plus a professional qualification, speak 4 languages and have HR work experience in 3 countries. How would you rate the chances of my offer making it past the HR Officer who has a couple of A-levels and maybe done just the first part of the professional qualification (which, to be totally fair, may be adequate for 90% of the work they do)?

[Tayne]

As you don't seem to understand what's being discussed yet have made up figures and are now disagreeing with yourself I see no point in continuing this.

[gtd2000]

Making an offer doesn't mean that it'll be accepted. I have tried, but I have been unsuccessful and it's not hard to see why. I have two HR degrees plus a professional qualification, speak 4 languages and have HR work experience in 3 countries. How would you rate the chances of my offer making it past the HR Officer who has a couple of A-levels and maybe done just the first part of the professional qualification (which, to be totally fair, may be adequate for 90% of the work they do)?

 

This, unfortunately, is a very bad position to be in

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

As you don't seem to understand what's being discussed yet have made up figures and are now disagreeing with yourself I see no point in continuing this.

 

I just said "don't hate people for doing something they love", and people have jumped at me. Do you disagree with the quoted statement?

[messerschmitt owner]

I work in the media. Publishing, to be precise.

 

Employers in the media and arts can take the piss when it comes to salaries, perks or lack of same, etc., as there are literally thousands of people who want to work in these industries - doesn't matter if it is journalism, photography, publishing, theatre, tv, etc., someone will do the work for next to nothing or even nothing just to get something for their CV.

 

End of!

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Making an offer doesn't mean that it'll be accepted. I have tried, but I have been unsuccessful and it's not hard to see why. I have two HR degrees plus a professional qualification, speak 4 languages and have HR work experience in 3 countries. How would you rate the chances of my offer making it past the HR Officer who has a couple of A-levels and maybe done just the first part of the professional qualification (which, to be totally fair, may be adequate for 90% of the work they do)?

 

This, unfortunately, is a very bad position to be in

 

Indeed...I'm starting to seriously think about PhDs now, even if they are not in my own area of research expertise, because there doesn't seem to be much of another way out.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

I work in the media. Publishing, to be precise.

 

Employers in the media and arts can take the piss when it comes to salaries, perks or lack of same, etc., as there are literally thousands of people who want to work in these industries - doesn't matter if it is journalism, photography, publishing, theatre, tv, etc., someone will do the work for next to nothing or even nothing just to get something for their CV.

 

End of!

 

Exactly. Pure supply and demand at work, probably a difficult situation for some but absolutely no reason to hate anyone...

[Cavcraft]

When it comes to a mobile wouldn't it be a lot less hassle just to sell it to somewhere like CEX or Envirophone?

 

Yeah, it is an option but I heard bad things about one or two of those companies recently. Certainly worth a bash as a last resort!

[Guest]

Christ.

 

I appear to have opened up a can of worms.

 

I am not saying for one moment that unpaid work is below me. I do not consider myself a professional photographer in any sense of the word - what I object to was the way Shandy Photo Boy made his comments (via SBM's mate rather than face-to-face), post up a laughable portfolio as evidence of his 'skills' and then offer me a pointless sub-runner 'job' after a barrage of sniping and unhelpful comments as a means of 'getting better'.

 

I can only compare it to a placement I did at radio station in Stockport. If you know Stockport, you know the one I'm talking about. The head of news spent ages with me, and whilst he wasn't complimentary about the previous reads I'd done, showed me how to improve and offered feedback on any bulletins I was to do in the future. I left there with a better understanding of what was required, rather than feeling patronised.

[trigger]

What sort of phone is it Billy and how much did it end for?

[Cavcraft]

HTC Desire HD, boxed and pretty much as good as new. Ended up at something like £147.19.

[trigger]

£147 was a good price, compairemymobile ( http://www.comparemymobile.com/recycle/ ... re-hd.html ) says it's worth up to £129 as a brand new trade in, I used cashberry last week for my old phone and they paid up within a week of me posting it to them.

 

These one's are offering the best deal but i haven't used them before. http://www.money4machines.co.uk/product ... re-hd.html

[Tayne]

I've used Mazuma in the past with no issues.

There's also another comparison site with user reviews of mobile recyclers. I think I found it via money saving expert.

[Cavcraft]

Thanks lads, Cash4machines have offered £126.00 so will see what happens.

[Tayne]

I just said "don't hate people for doing something they love", and people have jumped at me.

 

Hey Luxo, someone's hacked your account!

If that is all you said.

You need to change all your passwords as someone has been posting in your name.

 

I'd also check your online banking, paypal etc. You never know how far these jokers will go.

 

I hope you get this. I'd send a pm but I suspect the hacker will delete it.

Hopefully someone on here who has your email or phone number will send you a message.

[chaseracer]

Can someone hammer a less tedious thread over this one? Much obliged...