Engineered like no other car. Not a single one like it. Thankfully.

[RichardK]

On 6/23/2021 at 9:34 PM, Talbot said:

Why oh why have I never invested in a pela-type pump before now?  Having just used a cheapo one that came from Lidl to do an oil change on the E300, that was the easiest thing ever, and far more sensible than scrabbling about on the ground trying to get the undertrays off, get the sump plug undone, use a drain pan, have to pour waste oil etc. etc.  Oil changes are messy, but this just makes it easy.  Straight from the sump into the waste oil tank:hen it's finished.  Quick spray-through with a bit of brake cleaner and it's ready for next time.  Best £12.99 (or whatever it was) I've spent in a fair while.

There's also a lovely bit of design in this series of engines whereby the filter (which is a cartridge-type rather than a spin-on) is up at the top of the engine, and when you undo the cover, it drops the contents of the filter housing down into the sump, meaning there's only one location you need to drain from, rather than having the oil from the filter pissing all over the place.

That design, and a vacuum pump, is why my SLK got an oil change every six months without fail. It was just so easy.

I notice the BMW's got the same setup - don't think I ever changed the oil on my 528 as I didn't have it long enough and the 323i was serviced recently but it'll be on the six-month schedule once I've done the waterpump.

Also your welding skills are inspiring. I may be asking Questions. I see much bodywork/welding in my future...

[Shite Ron]

This is a great and very informative thread, for many years the car that has suited my needs, desires and bank balance most has been higher spec. Cortina mk5 estates but they are now rare and many times more than a week’s wages to buy, they also turn too many heads and I am not comfortable leaving them parked in dodgy area’s or carrying  a wet /muddy dog and/or building materials in them. I have realised I will need to reluctantly enter the 21st century and it seems an E class estate is the closest new* car to a Cortina, it certainly appears to meet my requirements of RWD, comfort, reliability? Carrying and towing capacity. I think from what I read an W210 E320 is the one to have?

Please correct me if I am wrong? Also is the W210 better than a W211? There are a few W211’s around for not much more than a bag which look like new cars with sat nav, hands free etc. They seem to have some serious design issues with the brakes and slushboxes though?

Any advise from those of you with experience of these cars would be much appreciated, I have a couple on my watch list and don’t want to do anything stupid.

[Talbot]

52 minutes ago, Shite Ron said:

is the W210 better than a W211?

W210 is less absurdly complex than a W211.  The 210 is the final evolution of the W123/W124/W210 series.  You can see development from the first W123 with some parts and concepts right the way through (like vacuum driven headlamp adjustment and central locking, also the rear SLS for instance).  The very last W210s were just starting to get into canbus, but are still just about DIY-workable.

The W211 is a completely new vehicle with a lot more electronics, less easy to work on, and with complex issues with suspension.  They're not a bad car, certainly a lot more modern and dynamic to drive, but expect more expensive repair bills when it does go wrong.

The 210 is also (I think) fractionally larger.  Certainly the loadspace seems longer than a 211, and the 211 drives like a smaller car.  The 210, whilst not very tall is quite wide and *very* long.  It hangs out of a lot of parking spaces.  It is, however, a superb long-distance vehicle.  I've driven one back from Edinburgh to the south coast in one go, leaving at 15:00 after a day's work and got back feeling no more tired than I was when I left.

I like the 210 as it is the last of an evolution of an older car.  The only issue now is that they're getting a bit thin on the ground, some interior trim parts are getting harder to find except from cars being broken, of which there are fewer and fewer now.  Rust is the biggest issue to maintenance, but if you're OK with that, then they're really not that bad for maintenance at all.  Service parts are inexpensive, it's relatively easy to work on (space, access etc.) and there's still good backup from dealers.

210 prices have pretty much bottomed out and are, if anything, just beginning to rise for decent cars.  211s are nowhere near that yet.

If you want a 210, the E320CDi is the one to have.  It's the first evolution of common rail, is 200hp and will do 45mpg with care.

[Shite Ron]

2 hours ago, Talbot said:

I've driven one back from Edinburgh to the south coast in one go, leaving at 15:00 after a day's work and got back feeling no more tired than I was when I left.

Thank you very much for taking the time to type a clear and informative reply it is much appreciated. You have helped confirm my thoughts. The above statement is very reassuring, I once drove home from Spain in one go after leaving there at 5pm and also drove over 700 miles through France and Spain in one day, both trips in different mk5 Cortina’s. I always said  there were not many other cars I would enjoy driving those sort of distances in but I  may be right that a W210 is the future, I may find out in 9 days or so,  fingers crossed.

[Talbot]

If you're after one for long-distance comfort, look at either a Classic (lowish spec) or Elegance (higher spec) car.  The Avantgarde model has shorter stiffer springs and hence is slightly less soft and compliant.  Still softer and more comfortable than anything that's come from Germany for the last 15 years though.  Both my estates have been Avantgarde, and still managed the sort of journeys mentioned above.  The saloon mentioned briefly at the beginning of the thread was a Elegance and it definitely both rode slightly higher and had softer springing.

[RichardK]

My E320 CDI was a belter until the gearbox crapped itself. Loved that thing, 50mpg potential, sounded like a Deltic (in my head) when taking off and amazingly easy to work on. Also when you see a W210 you realise just how cleverly Mercedes incorporated XM-style aerodynamic nose slopeage into an upright, Mercedes design; it's a wedge, with a hint of cab-forward, but you'd never guess it in passing. Very clever.

[Talbot]

2 hours ago, RichardK said:

the gearbox crapped itself.

Later 7g-tronic boxes are not as strong or reliable as the earlier 5g-tronic ones.  That said, most of them are pretty robust, and at the slightest hint of gearbox crappage, just shove another one in.  They're under £100, as they're so reliable, they're not in demand.  2-post lift, gearbox stand and a couple of hours and it's a driver again.

[RichardK]

It was timing rather than tech, I was in the middle of a five year mental breakdown crossed with mania (see also buying a Sera /and/ an RX8 and giving up without trying etc). It needed a contact plate. @NorthernMonkeygot it and my 300CE and gave it a new lease of life IIRC and I can’t actually remember what replaced it - I think it was my Citroen C5 that got wiped out by an Ibiza.

TBH I think Mercedes - even the wonkier years - are still among the best cars to maintain and DIY. But my last C-Class needed £2.5K of warranty work on the AdBlue system before 20,000 miles - there may be trouble ahead for us shiters!

[Talbot]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:29 PM, RichardK said:

It needed a contact plate.

The conductor plates for these gearboxes are even still available now.  The biggest cost with doing the job is that you need eleventy-billion litres of fresh gearbox oil, a new filter and a new gasket.  The plate itself is quite reasonably priced (under £100 from a main stealer).  That said, you get a gearbox oil change into the bargain, which invariably makes the change smoother.

[RichardK]

I

10 minutes ago, Talbot said:

The conductor plates for these gearboxes are even still available now.  The biggest cost with doing the job is that you need eleventy-billion litres of fresh gearbox oil, a new filter and a new gasket.  The plate itself is quite reasonably priced (under £100 from a main stealer).  That said, you get a gearbox oil change into the bargain, which invariably makes the change smoother.

Yep, and I was all up for that - I did the SLK’s fluids and filters and seal for the gearbox loom and wasn’t afraid of doing the plate on the E320 except, IIRC, my little lift was directly in the way.

Also flaked out. I did that a lot after a series of unfortunate events. I’m probably not better now but I’m enjoying the current phase, whatever it is.

[Talbot]

At the FoD recently, it was commented that the exhaust on the E300 sounded really rather fruity.  Given that there was an RV8 in attendance at the same event, that's quite a statement to be making.  Unfortunately, the rather throaty sound at idle developed into a very thrummy burble at idle, and then into a fairly tedious drone on the motorway.  On getting back, the jaunty angle of the back-box (which is the only silencer on the OM606) made it rather evident that the exhaust gasses were not passing through said silencer, rather were exiting beforehand.
Driving it like that in to work for two days wasn't ideal.  It did improve my fuel economy though, as not wanting to piss anyone off meant I was driving it absurdly gently.
Got bored of that, so:

Well that's sub-optimal.  Right.  Get it up in the air so it can be repaired:

It wasn't pretty.  Welding a rusty exhaust, blind, in a completely inaccessible location.  It doesn't leak, so I'll call that a win:

Possibly the worst example of welding I've achieved in many years.  It's porous, very shitty, missed the gap in one place and looks absolutely awful.  However, it's no longer leaking and the exhaust is one piece again.  So sod it,  I just need it to not drone.

Better:

And that'll do.

[Talbot]

.... and the journey in this morning was sooooo much quieter!  Also, the exhaust didn't fall apart again, which is all I was really looking to achieve.

One day I might make a stainless one for it.  One day.

[Talbot]

Scraped an MOT pass for the Merc-o-barge a couple of days ago, which was a cheeky bonus as I wholly expected a fail.  Plenty of advisories and a very kind MOT man who gave my OSR brake lamp a wiggle to make it work so he could pass it.

The mileage history on it is amusing.  A car that was in "advancing years" and looking forward to retirement has been pressed back into service.  Even with lockdown bollocks over the last year I've still managed 15k in it.

Which will likely reduce a bit now, as I'm sufficiently close to work that I don't need to drive to commute, so this is now for other journeys and business use.  Be interesting to see what my mileage is for this year, as I've never been able to get to work without driving before now.

[Talbot]

It's bloody hot, and I don't like it.  The merc should be cold, but it isn't.  So, to fix that:

Vacuuming out the system, with the wheelybin acting like a resonance box for the vac pump, just to make everything a bit louder!

The system was basically empty, but it vacced out ok and held vacuum for several hours.  Shove a bit of PAG oil in just to help, and then in with the gas:

In typical fashion of this car, it needs a LOT of refrigerant, a whole KG.  So 1kg was weighed out of the bottle, and lo-and-behold, the interior started getting cold again.
Even drawing out vapour rather than liquid from the bottle, it transfers quite quickly:

Of course I managed to drop one of the O-rings from the high-side port cover into the engine bay and hence had to take the undertray off to find it and refit it... pillock.  Took the car for a short drive with the AC on max to check it, and all working well.  Condenser temperature controlling at 5-ish-degrees, and the high side showing between 10 and 15 bar, and 35-50 deg C, depending on the roadspeed of the car.  How do I know this?  The climate control system in the 210 doubles as a live-data reader for the a number of climate control items, meaning you can read:

Car interior temperature
Exterior temperature
Left and right-hand heater matrix temperatures
Evaporator temperature
Engine Coolant temperature
Compressor discharge pressure
Condenser temperature
Evaporator pressure
Interior Fan driver power
Sunlight detector reading
Condensor fans driver power
Battery voltage
Engine RPM
Roadspeed in km/h
And a couple of other odds-n-sods

All while you drive.  Very handy it is too.  Obviously some of those are visible in the instrument cluster anyway, some as analogue needles and others as digital information, but the Pressures and Temperatures on the AC loop are very useful to be able to check it's working properly.

Also... anyone else need an R134a re-charge?  I still have 12.6KG of gas!

[jcr]

25 minutes ago, Talbot said:

It's bloody hot, and I don't like it.  The merc should be cold, but it isn't.  So, to fix that:

Vacuuming out the system, with the wheelybin acting like a resonance box for the vac pump, just to make everything a bit louder!

The system was basically empty, but it vacced out ok and held vacuum for several hours.  Shove a bit of PAG oil in just to help, and then in with the gas:

In typical fashion of this car, it needs a LOT of refrigerant, a whole KG.  So 1kg was weighed out of the bottle, and lo-and-behold, the interior started getting cold again.
Even drawing out vapour rather than liquid from the bottle, it transfers quite quickly:

Of course I managed to drop one of the O-rings from the high-side port cover into the engine bay and hence had to take the undertray off to find it and refit it... pillock.  Took the car for a short drive with the AC on max to check it, and all working well.  Condenser temperature controlling at 5-ish-degrees, and the high side showing between 10 and 15 bar, and 35-50 deg C, depending on the roadspeed of the car.  How do I know this?  The climate control system in the 210 doubles as a live-data reader for the a number of climate control items, meaning you can read:

Car interior temperature
Exterior temperature
Left and right-hand heater matrix temperatures
Evaporator temperature
Engine Coolant temperature
Compressor discharge pressure
Condenser temperature
Evaporator pressure
Interior Fan driver power
Sunlight detector reading
Battery voltage
Engine RPM
Roadspeed in km/h.

All while you drive.  Very handy it is too.  Obviously some of those are visible in the instrument cluster anyway, some as analogue needles and others as digital information, but the Pressures and Temperatures on the AC loop are very useful to be able to check it's working properly.

Also... anyone else need an R134a re-charge?  I still have 12.6KG of gas!

I would certainly like AC on my 406. However I am sure any gas put in would immediately leave and mean a futile journey....

Can you tool up for this for relatively cheap?

[Talbot]

Just now, jcr said:

I would certainly like AC on my 406. However I am sure any gas put in would immediately leave and mean a futile journey....

Can you tool up for this for relatively cheap?

If you identify where any leak is, you can change out AC components fairly easily.  Once that is done,  get the system pressure and vacuum tested.  Once it passes those tests, you're ready for gas.

As for the tooling up costs.. no, not really.  Certainly if you have one or two cars to deal with, just use a local garage.  Also, it's not just the tooling, you do need to have a reasonable understanding of how refrigerant systems work before you start trying to work on them manually.  An automated AC system is far easier, but they are £thousands.

There are a few people at my work who want a regass M9, and a couple of members/friends here who have cars that need charging, so I expect I'll break-even on the tooling costs and this first cylinder of gas.  The next cylinder of gas might possibly net me a couple of quid profit, but that's not why I've bought it all.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

I took my 97 W210 into a local place to get it re-gassed a couple of weeks ago , quoted me £68 and started work. After 30 minutes the bloke told me it would be £136 as mine had more gas as it has the optional split system and the old gas. I wasn’t happy but accepted it. But they couldn’t find where to connect the machine despite half a dozen printouts of the internet. I ran out of time and left.

Not sure I’ll bother now , I just won’t use it on very hot days  going into London.

[Talbot]

7 hours ago, NorfolkNWeigh said:

mine had more gas as it has the optional split system and the old gas.

Utter garage horseshit.  W210s only ever used R134a, only ever had one size of system and all have split temperature control.  It matters not which engine or body you have, or indeed if it's got the basic climate control or the LCD display version, they all take 1kg of R134a... as the slam-panel sticker tells you the moment you open the bonnet.  Even the high and low side ports are always in the same place... as per my pics above.

If somehow your car and my kit can be brought together, 1kg of R134a could easily make it's way into your AC system.

[Talbot]

As any owner of an indirect-injection diesel engine knows, when glowplugs start to fail, you have an engine that can be a pain to start and then clags like a 1950's tractor for the first minute or so until all the cylinders decide to join the party.  Even if you've only one plug failed out of six, it makes a surprising difference, and as many IDI engines have post-heating to ensure complete combustion, that one cylinder that isn't post-heated will knock like knackered balljoints on a cobbled road.

A little while back I lost three in quick succession, making the engine near-impossible to start and engulfing about 3/4 of the housing estate I live on into the great London smog of 1952 every morning.  To get to the plugs to change them is a bit of an arse on the OM606, as the inlet manifold has to come off.  This is a bit of a bore, as the ports are duplex on the head, meaning there are 12 ports.  About 3000 bolts to remove from the manifold to the head, and then a few others from the EGR valve and so on.  It's made a lot easier on mine, as the "bastard" bolt that goes in from below (meaning you have to jack up the car and remove undertrays) is missing.  It's been like that for well over 100k miles, and I've no intention of replacing it.  So... 6 plugs ordered.  Pick a nice weekend and off with the pipe-organ that is the OM606 manifold, visible here: (pic from earlier in the thread)

to reveal all the gubbins underneath:

Pulled all the glowplugs out, as they have a habit of seizing in on this engine.  Good ones put back, three dead ones replaced.  I'm not changing all of them, as three of them are still working.  £1 says that another will fail soon now I've said that.

The plug access isn't bad, certainly a bit easier than on an XUD.

Thankfully all mine came out OK.  They are very long and have an astonishingly tight tolerance in the head.  Often, these will clag up with soot in the close tolerance and hence get very stuck.  I tend to slather them in copper grease, which seems to help.  Dead one here:

Back to starting on 6 cylinders, with somewhat less smoke.  Huzzar!

[vaughant]

"Possibly the worst example of welding I've achieved in many years.  It's porous, very shitty, missed the gap in one place and looks absolutely awful.  However, it's no longer leaking and the exhaust is one piece again.  So sod it,  I just need it to not drone."

 

But when you look at what you're trying to weld with that's a great result 👍👍👍. 

Hoping to do something similar with my Elgrand which has rotted in the same way but as I don't have your skillzzz, I'll most likely weld the pipe into a larger piece first then weld that bit against the seam weld around the exhaust. 

Great thread by the way,always loved these. I think the saloons dropped the headrests when you selected reverse, amazing tech for the late 90's.

[Talbot]

A few days ago, the familiar burble of a 6-pot with no silencer became evident again.  Very shortly followed by the incessant drone of an incomplete exhaust on the motorway.  "Oh Bother" I said.

This is all a bit familiar.  This time, however, not only had the inlet to the silencer rusted/cracked off, but one of the tailpipes had come out too.  I suspect the exhaust is "past it's best", but I don't have a spare, and just want to shut it up.

Silencer off:

Very rusted:

And without the silencer, very noisy:

Yes, I should replace it.  But it's sunday, and I have a welder.  So.  Plate up the holes, weld the tailpipe back in, and make it ready for refitting:

If I thought the welding was bad last time, it's absolutely atrocious this time.  Do I look like I care?  Barely cleaned up the rust, so of course the oxide was bubbling through the weld all the time.  I was also being stingy with shielding gas, as it's an exhaust, and argoshield is expensive!

With that done, the silencer was re-hung in position, and the front-to-rear pipe offered up.

Weld that as much as I can, and then drop the whole exhaust off it's mountings to get to the top a little more easily this time:

What an absolute mess.  Did I mention that I just DNGAF?

It was raining while I was doing this.  Very handily, there's a carport to work under.  Oddly, it's not connected to the garage, so going back and forth for tools etc. you get wet.  I'd love to be able to roof-over the bit between the carport and the garage, but it's a rented house, and not many years old, so that's not going to happen any time soon.

Exhaust back up in place and in one piece again. 

And once more, all quiet(er) again.  If you cover the tailpipes, there is definitely a goodly few leaks, but they're right at the back of the car and very minimal, so I can't worry about them.

Looks like the last repair lasted about 16/17 months and I'd guess about 20k miles.  Place your bets on when the next thrilling* installment of "merc exhaust welding" will be arriving on these pages.

 

[juular]

11 hours ago, Talbot said:

A few days ago, the familiar burble of a 6-pot with no silencer became evident again.  Very shortly followed by the incessant drone of an incomplete exhaust on the motorway.  "Oh Bother" I said.

This is all a bit familiar.  This time, however, not only had the inlet to the silencer rusted/cracked off, but one of the tailpipes had come out too.  I suspect the exhaust is "past it's best", but I don't have a spare, and just want to shut it up.

Silencer off:

Very rusted:

And without the silencer, very noisy:

Yes, I should replace it.  But it's sunday, and I have a welder.  So.  Plate up the holes, weld the tailpipe back in, and make it ready for refitting:

If I thought the welding was bad last time, it's absolutely atrocious this time.  Do I look like I care?  Barely cleaned up the rust, so of course the oxide was bubbling through the weld all the time.  I was also being stingy with shielding gas, as it's an exhaust, and argoshield is expensive!

With that done, the silencer was re-hung in position, and the front-to-rear pipe offered up.

Weld that as much as I can, and then drop the whole exhaust off it's mountings to get to the top a little more easily this time:

What an absolute mess.  Did I mention that I just DNGAF?

It was raining while I was doing this.  Very handily, there's a carport to work under.  Oddly, it's not connected to the garage, so going back and forth for tools etc. you get wet.  I'd love to be able to roof-over the bit between the carport and the garage, but it's a rented house, and not many years old, so that's not going to happen any time soon.

Exhaust back up in place and in one piece again. 

And once more, all quiet(er) again.  If you cover the tailpipes, there is definitely a goodly few leaks, but they're right at the back of the car and very minimal, so I can't worry about them.

Looks like the last repair lasted about 16/17 months and I'd guess about 20k miles.  Place your bets on when the next thrilling* installment of "merc exhaust welding" will be arriving on these pages.

 

I now want a 6 pot diesel with no exhaust as a daily 🤗

[Talbot]

14 minutes ago, juular said:

I now want a 6 pot diesel with no exhaust as a daily 🤗

At idle, and just above idle (up to maybe 1000rpm) it sounded Teh Secks.  It had a gentle low wuffle that was superb.   At 2500rpm on the motorway, the drone was deafening.  You'd lift off the power to slow down and think "aaah  thank goodness for that" as you dropped about 10dB.  And then have to put the power back on for the next hill.  I reached for my ear defenders a couple of times.  At least as annoying as a failed wheel-bearing drone, if not more.

[Talbot]

More noise.

Unfortunately it missed the booting I had to give it to get the arse up on the drive-on ramps.  This was just the moving about to get it in the right place.  Phone speakers or crappy headphones won't convey how deep the thrum is from the no-silencer exhaust.. you need actual speakers or decent headphones to hear it!

[Crackers]

Can confirm (from the last time the exhaust fell off 😁) that this sounds absolutely epic at idle and booting it off roundabouts, etc, with no silencing. 

Unfortunately, yes, it is also pretty noisy on the motorway! 

[juular]

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

More noise.

Unfortunately it missed the booting I had to give it to get the arse up on the drive-on ramps.  This was just the moving about to get it in the right place.  Phone speakers or crappy headphones won't convey how deep the thrum is from the no-silencer exhaust.. you need actual speakers or decent headphones to hear it!

I am having dirty thoughts about making up a cutoff valve with a stepper motor controlled by an Arduino. RPM dependent cutoffs 🎼

[Lacquer Peel]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:10 PM, Talbot said:

 

 

:

The plug access isn't bad, certainly a bit easier than on an XUD.

I don't remember having to remove the inlet manifold to do XUD glow plugs. 😛

[Talbot]

1 minute ago, Lacquer Peel said:

I don't remember having to remove the inlet manifold to do XUD glow plugs. 😛

No, but the one behind the injection pump on a Bosch-equipped TD is a complete bastard.  Removing the manifold on this engine is simplicity in comparison.

[Lacquer Peel]

I did them all on my van in about half an hour!

[Mrs6C]

2 hours ago, Crackers said:

Can confirm (from the last time the exhaust fell off 😁) that this sounds absolutely epic at idle and booting it off roundabouts, etc, with no silencing. 

Unfortunately, yes, it is also pretty noisy on the motorway! 

This car has always sounded great, like a 1950s V8 petrol both at idle and when in progress. Hope the most recent 'modgifications' haven't changed that!