invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

twas just reading again this bit of REV's history that I posted all the way back on Page 60

and it reminded me, that I never did get round to posting this 

which @st185cs let me know about a couple years ago, and while I had intended to post it with one of my milestone posts I never did quite get round to it/work it in there LOL

so figured id just finally post about it! as its always tickled me the coming together of both hobbies like this  

and of course the main thing here is the mention of Tricycles for the Disabled, I have to wonder if this is the Which? Report that Dennis And Marion took part in?

sadly I dont have an actual copy of this Which? issue, just the cover page! but id love to know if this is the one with the 2 Seater Tricycle, and which machine that was exactly!

as Model 70 Prototype 5 was explicitly built as a 2 Seater Model 70 and was fairly well known about for a time but its a 1967 machine (E suffix plate) did it really survive into the 1970's to be used in a Which? Report? or is the 2 Seater Tricycle something else

and as an aside, the McAlpine tricycle thats mentioned is another I have been curious about just which it was exactly, was it really bought by that company/have an MCA private plate etc!

I do sometimes wonder if it was this Private AC Acedes I was able to find on the DVLA a few years back, which was robbed of its plate, but just before current 1983+ records began so I cant tell what what its previous registration mark was (I can only tell that it WAS robbed of its original plate whatever that might of been I dont know sadly)

 

 

as for the question they ask about the lightbulbs, its because 1000 hour lightbulbs are more efficient then a 2000 lightbulb, so depending on where you use your lightbulb it would be a false economy to use the 2000 hour lamp since you would need a higher wattage lightbulb to make up the loss in lumens from the longer life bulb, thus you end up paying more in electricity/cost of the lightbulb, then you would save from the lightbulb lasting longer! of course things change when the cost of replacing the lightbulb itself becomes an expense in its own right (ie streetlighting etc) thats when a "long life" incandescent lightbulb starts to make more sense  

 

or at least thats the technical reason for it! as with the Tricycles would love to see what they themselves say LOL

[Mrs6C]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

sadly I dont have an actual copy of this Which? issue, just the cover page! but id love to know if this is the one with the 2 Seater Tricycle, and which machine that was exactly!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275496968404

[LightBulbFun]

On 06/04/2023 at 22:21, uk_senator said:

I`ve not had time to go on that historical London site for a couple of weeks, but I just grabbed this lot..

On 07/04/2023 at 04:20, LightBulbFun said:

ok now thats pretty a pretty impressive set of photos right there none of those photos are any that I had ever seen before, even a new Registration block for me smack the DVLA around the head with  (although ill let yall try and figure out which block it is that is new to me! I have talked about every block/examples from every block bar the new one of course, in my thread so the info is there to figure it out, well you have until i post about the new block later today anyhow LOL)

and even a Reverse Control AC Acedes Mk14 which is only the 2nd example I seen thus far  

mind if I ask where they where they where found/if ya got a link? Id like to save the originals for my archive free of any forum compression etc  

so time to bring this over here! as per my comment above its a lovely stash of photos which I had not seen before and contains a few very interesting little things! 

the first one is the XPU201F-XPU300F a Block of Invacar Mk12C's that I had yet to find, containing 1 DVLA live Car XPU249F

a private machine so I cant calculate any ministry chassis number stuff with this, in-fact Im not surprised its a Private machine, as rare as those are, its quite interesting to note that for these earlier blocks, most of the Machines that I can find those that survived long enough to stay on the DVLA, aka survive into lookup range, are all private machines, for a given range (D to F suffix), I count 10 Private Invacar Mk12's that survived into the 1980's/DVLA look up range, vs 2 Ministry machines, and even then one of those ministry machines is @Mrs6C's own Invacar Mk12c which @egg  personally raised from the depths of DVLA, so would not of been found through normally bashing if it was not for that 

so yeah by the mid 80's it seems that the few Invacar Mk12C's still on the road then where all private machines!

and of course that XPU block is only a couple hundred cars removed for @Mrs6C's own XWC  another interesting thing is the use of plastic Desmo mirrors, I did not realise until studying this photograph that Invacar used them this far back, however checking some Factory photographs shows that indeed right around the introduction of the Mk12c, they switched to the plastic Mirrors

AC however was still using Round mirrors through the Acedes Mk14, as conveniently seen in our next photo from the above lot, this AC Acedes Mk14, notice anything different about?

notice where the door is? yes its a reverse control machine! only the 2nd Reverse Control Mk14 I have seen!, a very nice find! it was only recently did I discover that reverse Control Mk14's where a thing at all! (until that point it was thought it was Mk15 thing)

On 17/11/2022 at 22:06, LightBulbFun said:

however while writing this I did find the original source from where I first found it back in 2019!

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-concern-over-safety-of-three-wheeled-disability-cars-1975-online

on the Model 67 featured also, note the early style 12 inch hubcaps compared to the other style of 12 inch hub caps used on Invacar machines and later Model 67's and earlier Model 70's

and also amusingly how they did not bother to mask the AC badge during a repaint LOL I have seen it happen to the Invacar badge a couple times but a first with an AC!

in fact I have just noticed its a reverse control Mk14! I have never seen a reverse control Mk14 before! thats very interesting! (Mk15's a couple yeah, but not a Mk14, and this one not even a Mk14A!)

and the rest of the photos are very nice also!  

[High Jetter]

Reverse control = door on the right?

[uk_senator]

28 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

so time to bring this over here! as per my comment above its a lovely stash of photos which I had not seen before and contains a few very interesting little things! 

AC however was still using Round mirrors through the Acedes Mk14, as conveniently seen in our next photo from the above lot, this AC Acedes Mk14, notice anything different about?

notice where the door is? yes its a reverse control machine! only the 2nd Reverse Control Mk14 I have seen!, a very nice find! it was only recently did I discover that reverse Control Mk14's where a thing at all! (until that point it was thought it was Mk15 thing)

and the rest of the photos are very nice also!  

Glad you found & enjoyed them! (& I have no idea what reverse control is either!)

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Reverse control = door on the right?

more then just the door, the entire control scheme/machine was flipped around!

 

here is a normal Mk15 machine, left/near side door, standard controls

 

but on a Reverse control machine *everything* was well reversed/flipped, as seen on this Reverse control Mk15 here 

sadly I dont have any good detailed photos of the inside of a Reverse control machine, but notice how the dashboard "hump" is on the other-side on this reverse control machine

 

 

 

 

however here is a standard AC Acedes Mk14 inside shot (ie not a reverse control machine)

and again looking "backwards" from a similar angle of a reverse control as in this shot note the hump is again on the other side!

 

 

 

the really curious thing! is the parts manuals I have, make NO MENTION of seperate reverse control parts, apart from 1 washer that has a note "for Reverse control machines only" 

so I have to wonder, where Fibreglass Acedes made to be flipped if that make sense, IE is the dashboard, literally the same plastic moulding, just turned the other-way around? (I have never seen underneath a Fibreglass Acedes dash board to see if its solid or not)

but that still leaves the question of the door itself, the parts manual only lists a nearside door and offside dummy door, (no Offside door, and nearside dummy door which would be required on a reverse control machine)

 

and another very interesting thing, on the *mk15* with  it Parallelogram front suspension, and Towing eye, note that on the reverse control Mk15 even the towing eye is on the other side of the bumper, so I have to wonder

was the entire front suspension also flipped around? (because of the flipped tiller bar?) IE was the leading arm frame now on the other side of the front wheel? as in on a normal control Acedes the suspension arm is on the right side of the car/wheel if your sitting down looking at the bulkhead, as can be seen in this cutaway drawing

but I wonder if on a reverse control machine its all on the other side of the machine?

(I do note that the front bulkhead of a Fibreglass Acedes is quite symmetrical  with the unused steering rod moulding just being used to hold the washer bottle)

its one of those its all bit strange and I have many questions, but the Fibreglass Acedes is such a rare machine, that I have very few detailed photos of even normal machines, let alone funky Reverse control ones!

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

also @AdgeCutler you have been Papped!  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/carsyoudontseeanymore/posts/3631381463850059/

[AdgeCutler]

Still fettling little odds and sods to try to get as perfect a drive as you possibly can from a Mk12, good progress with little niggles this week as Brian has been my daily drive while the kids are off and don't need a lift to school. I stopped off at my sisters this morning where she took this photo of Brian with my brother inlaw and myself. It's incredible the amount of interest this little car gets wherever he stops, people pulling over just to ask and talk, waves and smiles from a high percentage of folk just passing by. Either folk who have recollections or others wondering the tale, also small children that are fascinated. I was going to go out for another drive this afternoon but with winds up to 45mph I think I'll give it a miss.

[bobdisk]

On the subject of interest, I took the Daf out for a short run yesterday, couldn't believe the numbers of waves and thumbs ups I got in just 5 -6 miles👍👍👍

[Eyersey1234]

Is this one on your list @LightBulbFun?

[LightBulbFun]

33 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Is this one on your list @LightBulbFun?

Oh holy fuck thats a Harper Mk6 and not one on the list! thats one hell of a find!

@barrett and its a Petrol one!

[barrett]

Er, anyone want to store that somewhere for me? I would LOVE it but can't really make the logistics work at the moment. Damnit

[Weird Car]

9 minutes ago, barrett said:

Er, anyone want to store that somewhere for me? I would LOVE it but can't really make the logistics work at the moment. Damnit

More than welcome to keep it on my drive 😉

[Eyersey1234]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

Oh holy fuck thats a Harper Mk6 and not one on the list! thats one hell of a find!

@barrett and its a Petrol one!

That's good one turned up you didn't know about, it came up on my Faceache feed earlier

[Eyersey1234]

11 minutes ago, barrett said:

Er, anyone want to store that somewhere for me? I would LOVE it but can't really make the logistics work at the moment. Damnit

Pity I don't have any space, I'd have gladly stored it for you if I did

[Eyersey1234]

@LightBulbFun what's the difference between a Harper Mk6 and a Model 70?

[LightBulbFun]

On 11/04/2023 at 18:17, Eyersey1234 said:

@LightBulbFun what's the difference between a Harper Mk6 and a Model 70?

thats a Question and a half, pretty much everything  bar the fact that they are both Fibreglass 3 wheeled invalid vehicles

its a bit like asking whats the difference between a Plaxton Peanut and a B15 Leyland Titan! 

 

the Harper Mk6, is a 1957 Ministry Specification 197cc Villiers engined Manual gearbox machine

where as the Model 70 is a 1970 Ministry specification 493cc Steyr Puch Flat twin Fully automatic machine

and they have completely different chassis constructions and no parts commonality at all

 

the Model 70 really was a radical departure to what came before it  

[egg]

is that one actually for sale then?

[Eyersey1234]

1 hour ago, egg said:

is that one actually for sale then?

Yes

[LightBulbFun]

soooo, ummm, I may have done a thing!

or should I say we Have done a thing, because I have dragged @barrett and @Mrs6C into this as well  

but yes the Harper Mk6 has been saved!

I never thought in a million years Id end up finding and owning a Harper Mk6 of all things!  (or I guess that should that be we, since it is a joint venture so to speak! not sure @barrett ever expected to end up with one either!) theres gotta a be a joke in there  somewhere about 3 people jointly owning a single seater car

but I cant overstate how awesome this is! the Harper Mk6 is a near extinct machine, before this one came to light only 2 Petrol hard top harper Mk6's where known to survive,  172EPH with the Wroughton Science Museum, and 11SCW in New Zealand, and thats it! now 3 with 447FPH  

so as you can imagine I am very excited by all of this! just to see another survivor crop up! is fucking amazing let alone to have actually ended up with it! 

of course it was not an easy task to get it saved and I have to give many massive thanks to @worldofceri for being available to transport it at such short notice, and @Mrs6C for similarly being available at short notice to also assist in everything  

 

its in remarkably good condition for what it is, its all there and solid, and the engine even turns over! (I do wonder if it might be worth putting something down the plug hole to keep it oiled/lubed up?) I really am very pleased with it, even more so hearing how relatively good it shape its in, I was at least expecting the engine to be seized after so long but no! I do wonder how much it would take to get it running and driving

and its also been just been very fascinating to study, again Harpers are such rare things, that very little exists out there on them let but I do have this as as a baseline  so to speak at least (fittingly from @barrett)

but still to actually get a good look at one! would be worth a write up all on its own, its been quite interesting to see on our harper all the little things, like the door and engine cover being made of steel, and it really does look like they did just plonk the battery in the Cabin! which I have to say is rather crude even for an invalid car, and especially for a Harper! seems very last minute/hap-hazzard "Oh shit we forgot to make room for the battery in the engine bay!" its also very interesting to see that ours has a Hydrulic clutch, talking with Stuart at the other day, he did mention in pasing breifly that he thinks this might be a Mk6A so I do wonder if thats one of the changes (if I am reading the period writeup correctly it sounds and looks like theirs had a cable clutch)

its also interesting to see it seems to have an Invacar type throttle arrangement where the entire twist grip and clutch lever move with throttle input

its also fun to see the speedo clocks up to 70! now thats ambitious for a Villiers machine, less then 3K on the clock too practically brand new! LOL 

and its been very interesting to see that indeed the wheels ARE NOT standard Ministry Dunlop LP 591 wheels, this is something I had long suspected but never been able to confirm until now (I had suspected it because the wheels on a Harper never looked quite like Ministry wheels and they always had different style hub cpas)

and indeed they are quirky 3 stud things! how french! I do wonder if these wheels are unique to Harpers? or the PCD for that matter!

I think they are still 12 inches in diameter, but shod in 12x4.00 rather then the 12x4.40 that later machines where fitted with, thus I do wonder will 125R12's fit these wheels? (as in I know 125R12 will replace a 4.40x12 tyre but what about 4.00x12?) still need to confirm the tyre size however

and finally a couple more pictures of the Harper as it was found

you may notice no side windows, thats because it never had any! it would of had cellulose type side screens, this is a 1957 specification machine from before sliding glass windows where a thing!

it has had a repaint at some point in its past life, originally it was a metallic peacock blue, think early Invacar Mk12, but metallic like a Barrett midget

and sadly on that front, little is currently known about its history, other then its a fairly typical story, of old chap passes away and old car is unearthed from a garage, I will try and badger the seller for more details in the coming days, but I am not sure how much even he knows! but hopefully we can find out more in time  

so yeah as you can tell I am pleased as punch with this! and I am also if I am allowed to say, rather proud of myself, , that I managed to get saved such a rare machine, and on top of that be directly involved and orchestrate its saving! 

it was no easy feat! I felt like a conductor, conducting a large band, as I negotiated with the seller for the purchase and details of the machine,  all while coordinating everyone with everyone and passing on the relevant details here there and everywhere! properly frantic LOL, I made first contact on Wednesday and he needed it gone by well, today Friday! so I had about 36 hours to work out how to save the thing! pulled it off in the end tho!

totally worth it  of course! there just was simply no way I could stand by and do nothing! I am not kidding when I say love the British invalid car I mean it unconditionally! 

 

I look forward to the day, this Harper FPH, REV, TPA, TWC, Dolly, XWC, and  Brian are all able to stand proud together   

once again many thanks to @Mrs6C and @worldofceri for going out of their way to rescue it, and all the physical hard work they put into said rescuing!, I cannot overstate how much I appreciate it! I owe you both many gallons of your preferred beverage! 

 

 

 

as a side note I find it rather fitting we unearthed this Harper on the same day @dollywobbler unearthed TWC for the first time in a fair while!

 

[CaptainBoom]

Well done to all involved, that's bloody excellent!  You've been involved in more invalid carriage rescues than I've had hot dinners, (said whilst scoffing down a cold pasta ready meal)

[somewhatfoolish]

Need to track down that leccy Harper now, complete the set.

[AdgeCutler]

Glad you worked something out Dez, my mind can now rest easy! I had been battling myself on this one, three main things stopped me. 1, the seller never posted any price, which to me usually feels like they are ambitious! 2, lack of glass, which I now see wasn't a problem. 3, I need to finish other projects that have been patiently waiting in the queue.

I look forward to reading more on this stylish little gem.

[Christine]

Ah ,  the previous  owner was the one who  really saved it  no?   And the old boy ? Did he not save it,  for 50 or more years ?   

[worldofceri]

The old boy ‘abandoned’ it.

 The previous owner ‘profited’ from it.

Barret ‘coveted’ it.

 I ‘transported’ it.

Mrs 6C is ‘storing’ it.

Lightbulbfun ‘project-managed’ it.

Some people on the internet ‘commented’ on it.

Hope that helps clarify the ‘saving’ status of some of the protagonists.

[worldofceri]

Sadly I have to report that the wing mirror made a bid for freedom on the M40 and invoked the ire of a man in a Golf, the front of whose car said mirror may or may not have pinged off.  Hopefully it’s a generic part that can be fairly easily replaced?

I have to say it’s one of the happiest looking things I’ve had bouncing along in my rear view mirror for some time.

[loserone]

Amazeballs.

[Mrs6C]

It is a 'bonny wee thing' as folk in Scotland might say.

Interesting read, that Harper review. I see it mentions a dual control version having been produced and also that private vehicles were made, for customers in the UK and abroad.

@barrettknows about this one already, I think, but a Harper Mk6 featured in the excellent Spanish film 'El Cochecito' ('The Little Coach').  lt is used as a two seater car in the film. Perhaps Harper made two seat versions for foreign markets.

A snippet from the film, featuring the Harper and lots of other invalid carriages / cars of various types (probably unknown in the UK) is here:

The film is worth finding,. It came out in 1960 and is a cunning, witty and satirical black comedy,  that pokes at the social attitudes and politics of Spain at that time. Its original ending was banned in Franco's Spain, so an alternative ending was filmed for domestic audiences. The original version of the film was distributed outside Spain, so both versions can be found.

Without revealing the actual plot on here, a couple of reviews of the film can be found here for those who don't mind about Spoilers!
https://moviesteve.com/review-cochecito-wheelchair/
https://www.closeupfilmcentre.com/film_programmes/2019/pere-portabella/el-cochecito/

[High Jetter]

Well done to the four of you but especially Deal Driving Dez! 

[dollywobbler]

Happy news indeed. I do hope we can have a gathering of these vehicles at some point. Am hoping to carry out bodywork and mechanical improvements on TWC this year.