invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[dollywobbler]

I've driven mine through that tunnel...

[eddyramrod]

On 6/30/2022 at 10:41 AM, Jimbob McGregor said:

Hi @LightBulbFun.  You’ve in the past dug out some very useful info on a tractor for @loseroneand myself. 
Would you consider looking into this registration number for me and I’d make a donation to the Invacar and AS funds?

Photo of reg plate below. Vehicle is long gone but we suspect it might be a Land Rover.

I spent a happy few minutes in the library this morning, and I've dredged up all the info I can find, which isn't much.  I'll PM it, but that number was issued to a Triumph of some sort.

[eddyramrod]

PM sent to @Jimbob McGregor

ETA:  The next mark issued, 337, was a Mobylette.  I know we have moped pervs on here!

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, eddyramrod said:

I spent a happy few minutes in the library this morning, and I've dredged up all the info I can find, which isn't much.  I'll PM it, but that number was issued to a Triumph of some sort.

 

1 hour ago, eddyramrod said:

PM sent to @Jimbob McGregor

ETA:  The next mark issued, 337, was a Mobylette.  I know we have moped pervs on here!

 

Just want to say I really appreciate what you have done! 

as more often then not when I am in such a position of relying on someone else for important information on something, I have always had to constantly chase it up and it still takes 2 years to get in the end!

and its nothing as involved as getting info from an archive office!

so on behalf of @Jimbob McGregor and @loserone I want to say many thanks for being on the ball about it  

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I've driven mine through that tunnel...

its such a shame that the A12 junction I posted is so busy, id love to go there in REV, pull over and grab a photo of her parked by the sign, or get someone to grab a photo of her driving past  

(because I will be going past it at some point as Id like to take REV on the same round trip I did in my driving lessons and see if I can get a photo of her outside wanstead driving test centre ) 

 

BTW it was nice to see a few days ago that LPL837P is out on display somewhere  

and im just going to try and ignore what the plaque says, because theres so much wrong with it, it would just send me off on a rant LOL

 

and in other Model 70 news, has anyone ever seen a brake drum fail like this? from one of Adams cars and when he said a brake drum shattered on him I thought it broke as in like when a piston ring splits in 2

I did not expect to see the centre had fallen out of it while the rim was intact! 

and the strange thing is we think this is a fairly new drum ie, one fitted just before the machine came off the road. I wonder if there was some sort of casting defect or such?

[dollywobbler]

Eesh. Nasty! Sadly, while I was able to supply a photo of TWC for that display at NMM, I didn't get to proof any text.

[LightBulbFun]

58 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Eesh. Nasty! Sadly, while I was able to supply a photo of TWC for that display at NMM, I didn't get to proof any text.

indeed! I thought that was a quite a good photo to use  but also quite ironic as the text talks about them being "banned in 2003" meanwhile heres a photo of Model 70 in Central London 2019  

the whole irony of that tickled me very much indeed!

 

[egg]

Reading that, makes you wonder how many other inaccurate museum display boards I've read!

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Reading that, makes you wonder how many other inaccurate museum display boards I've read!

indeed! I often wonder if its the same for other enthusiasts for other vehicle makes/models/types

but I think with Invalid vehicles they are genuinely one of the most incorrectly written about vehicles out there, I always come across the same crap being spouted about them, from everyone and everywhere, even proper reputable museums and the such like, often the same boiler plate text that originated from 1 source and has been copied and regurgitated ever since

just in that plaque alone I count 6 inaccuracies 

1: the title, should read AC Model 70 Invalid car not "AC 70 Carriage"

2: Production ended during March 1978 not 1976

3: they where not banned off the roads in 2003 and in-fact the last Ministry Model 70 was not withdrawn from service until the 14th of October 2004!

4: "modern cars are more easily adaptable to different driving needs" a modern car is not more easily adaptable to a disability then a Model 70 is! more creature comforts and much safer/refined then a Model 70 yes, but not more easily adaptable, 

5: 'Performance 55Mph', a Model 70's real top speed is somewhere beyond 70Mph that much has been verified! (how much beyond 70Mph I dont know sadly)

6: "price new: not marketed" right here I have period brochure! not marketed my arse...

 

[GR8 PL8 M8]

On 02/09/2022 at 16:44, LightBulbFun said:

and im just going to try and ignore what the plaque says, because theres so much wrong with it, it would just send me off on a rant LOL

Well that lasted long...

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

6: "price new: not marketed" right here I have period brochure! not marketed my arse...

I'm not seeing a price on that brochure? If it was a "price on application" type deal due to the possible variations then I would consider it correct to say that the price was not marketed.

I'm actually quite curious to know how much these things cost compared to a conventional car of the time now though.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, GR8 PL8 M8 said:

Well that lasted long...

I'm not seeing a price on that brochure? If it was a "price on application" type deal due to the possible variations then I would consider it correct to say that the price was not marketed.

I'm actually quite curious to know how much these things cost compared to a conventional car of the time now though.

I was reading "not marketed" to say they where not sold and no attempt was made to market them hence "not marketed"

and also to say that they where all government owned and no one could buy one privately, which is a another very common bit of false info that gets spouted about sadly (ironically often while posted next to a picture of NPN924P which is a private Model 70, always tickles me when I see that LOL)

 

I have heard the price for a Private Model 70 in 1977 was £1799, but I have never been able to verify that sadly 

 

in quite exciting Model 70 news, KPL has been on the move since the first time since 2018! given the state she ended up in i bet no expected this at the time! never say die!  

https://www.facebook.com/accountdeactivationpending/videos/2339675122847706/

 

[Crackers]

On 01/09/2022 at 14:04, LightBulbFun said:

and also so I know that they have been spoken for and I dont accidentally get people bidding against each other!

That's... that's just how an auction works. That's the point.

I don't think it's within your remit to administrate the sales of vehicles you don't own and haven't been appointed the auctioneer of.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Nyphur said:

Do people generally respond favourably to you messaging them telling them what they should/shouldn't do with their own car?

If this happened to me I would probably hugely overreact and consider setting fire to it out of spite. But then, I am spiteful.

generally yes actually!, obviously its his own car he can do what he wants with it and I made sure to state that, however most people dont realise what they have, and when you explain what they have, people generally are quite understanding  

he has been very reasonable in listening to my reasoning, im not sure I have fully convinced him to not smart-car it, but he explained his reasonings for it, for example a lack of any sort of perceived parts supports, so I let him know just how well the Villiers engine is still supported, and then he mentioned the wiring was messed about with, so I sent him a PDF copy of the Mk12 instruction manual which contains a full wiring digram, and I also pointed him the direction of @AdgeCutler's Mk12 restoration series on youtube etc, so he knows that he is not alone if he needs help in figuring out whats what should he decide to restore his  

he also mentioned that his chassis was in good shape, and I dont think he realised just how rare that is for a Mk12, especially given where his came from! 

 

the thing that worries me with all this, is he seems to think that even once smart-car'ed that he can continue running around the Mk12's identity of NPU156J, but I think he would quickly run into radically altered vehicle rules

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles 

and this could risk the DVLA voiding NPU156J's vehicle registration record, which would be a very bad thing! but im not sure how to mention to to him without it sounding like im only saying it to scare him off the idea! when im actually saying just so he himself does end up in hot water over it with the DVLA, and void the vehicle record!

but its why I suggested to him that should he wish to do the idea, that he would be much better off with one of the Trysull Mk12's which have no known identity, then he can punt the whole contraption through IVA/SVA and it will all be tickety boo at that point

if this sounds familiar its because this all happened to a Panhard 24 that was dropped onto modern running gear and it sort of ended up as a hot potato because of it, and I dont want the same happening to an invacar if I can help it  

(and to a similar extend the Peugeot 403 estate)

2 hours ago, Crackers said:

That's... that's just how an auction works. That's the point.

I don't think it's within your remit to administrate the sales of vehicles you don't own and haven't been appointed the auctioneer of.

Yes I know how an auction works LOL

what I mean is sometimes you have people who are bidding just for a punt with no serious intent, or maybe only bidding if no one else is

so I just want to make sure that if one of my fellow Invacar friends says that about NPD806D, but then say I know another of my friends is bidding with serious intent

then I can let the first friend know, who will then happily hold off on bidding, since no point just arbitrarily driving the price up! 

[LightBulbFun]

11 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

in quite exciting Model 70 news, KPL has been on the move since the first time since 2018! given the state she ended up in i bet no expected this at the time! never say die!  

https://www.facebook.com/accountdeactivationpending/videos/2339675122847706/

continuing on from this I see Adam was able to get all 4 of his roadworthy Model 70's to the national microcar rally  

which is very awesome to see! especially all 4 as I was not sure if VJN960S would be able to make it or not, he was working round the clock these past couple days to get them all ready, even having to do an emergency dynastart change on one!

[egg]

I love that 'others of interest' sign, that's perfect! The ambivalence of the microcar scene toward the invacars in one small sentence!

Velorex on the end of the row?

[RayMK]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I love that 'others of interest' sign, that's perfect! The ambivalence of the microcar scene toward the invacars in one small sentence!

Velorex on the end of the row?

Turning up at a microcar rally in a Reliant three wheeler used to be a risky move.  Something to do with Bond, history and blame.  Invalid carriages were very rarely seen at microcar events in the 1980s-90s when I attended them.  There was a perception that staring at anyone with a disability was to be discouraged, even if they were driving an interesting car.  I think the only AC that I snapped during this period was a Petite.  

[egg]

24 minutes ago, RayMK said:

Turning up at a microcar rally in a Reliant three wheeler used to be a risky move.

Thanks. Wasn't it also a CC issue, i.e the Reliant engine was 'too big'

[RayMK]

26 minutes ago, egg said:

Thanks. Wasn't it also a CC issue, i.e the Reliant engine was 'too big'

Not really.  They carefully selected the capacity to exclude Reliants.  Bond Bugs are welcomed despite having much in common with Reliants including the engine.  Smarts are also mentioned as acceptable as are Raleigh Safety Sevens (742cc).  These days, the old hostilities towards Reliant by the Bond fraternity are largely buried.  However, this years national microcar rally event details made no mention of Reliant three wheelers but Fiat 500, NSU Prinz and other cars which maybe small but not micro by weight were named.  The microcar national rally is usually an excellent event to attend.  This year's was too far away to tempt me out of my armchair - which is becoming a regular excuse!

Edit: The first ohv Regals were only 600cc (nom.) and there's a fair number which could make it to such a good gathering of three and four wheeled small, lightweight cars/vehicles.

[LightBulbFun]

on the Northern Ireland Model 70 front

I was just talking to the chap in NI who has ended up with UOI8850

and he said something very interesting, in that we all know that NI Model 70's where sent over to NI un-registered because of computerisation reasons, and then registered when and as needed, and its noted that they where all Belfast registered, and so we had wondering where were they issued from exactly (the all belfast told us it must of been from 1 central location)

 and @Datsuncog had a good idea on where that might be, but I have never been able to fully confirm yay or nay 

On 01/03/2019 at 15:57, Datsuncog said:

I'm guessing that invalid carriages were issued out of Musgrave Park Hospital in South Belfast, as this is the main orthopaedics hospital in Northern Ireland - hence the Belfast 'OI' series plates.

however the chap  I was just talking mentioned that in 2003 when the Ministry was disposing of them en-mass, he says he came across a scrap man who had 50 of them lined up against a wall and was squashing them with his lorry and chucking them into a skip (as sadly was standard protocol, this is one of the many nasty ways I have heard of scrap men/repair shops scrap Model 70's sadly) 

the very interesting thing is, this was taking place at *drum roll* Musgrave park hospital! which is very interesting to hear because it sounds like @Datsuncog was very much on the money  

the question I wonder is, where did they keep them in the hospital all prior to them being withdrawn?

can you imagine being a lost patient at that hospital wondering about at night, stumbling through a door and suddenly find 50 Model 70's staring back at you? 

[egg]

28 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

the question I wonder is, where did they keep them in the hospital all prior to them being withdrawn?

FoI request could be your friend here, maybe Mr Cog can suggest the relevant authority? As I expect as its NHS it will have been reorganised about 10 times since then!

[Datsuncog]

20 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

the question I wonder is, where did they keep them in the hospital all prior to them being withdrawn?

Again, I'd only be guessing but I reckon the Regional Disablement Services Building on the Musgrave Park estate might be a likely contender - the late 60s/ early 70s architecture and abundance of parking spaces for Blue Badge holders makes it seem a possible contender?

Of course, it's quite possible there were also workshops and stores on the hospital site which have now been demolished or repurposed - the overall site contains the original old turn-of-the-century redbrick hospital building, loads of lowrise 1960s concrete blocks (which are probably choc-full of asbestos and such) and some more modern 2000s buildings.

This link should show what's on the site, in glorious 360-degree vision.

Belfast, Northern Ireland - Google Maps

Good sleuthing - and hopefully UOI's now in good hands!

[Datsuncog]

41 minutes ago, egg said:

FoI request could be your friend here, maybe Mr Cog can suggest the relevant authority? As I expect as its NHS it will have been reorganised about 10 times since then!

It would probably be through the Northern Irish Department for Health, although conceivably also the Belfast Health & Social Care Trust...

I'd initially doubted they'd hold any records going back to 2003, but looking at DoH's Records Disposal Schedule indicates that twenty years is their norm for retention - after that, 'significant' records are meant to be transferred to the Public Record Office for Northern Ireland (PRONI) - but I know from working with them that they keep very little for public records.

Since you'd be going back only 19 years now, might be worth dropping them a request before the 20 year window arrives next year:

DoH Freedom of Information | Department of Health (health-ni.gov.uk)

FOI can be a bit of a double-edged sword, though - it implies that information will be provided, whereas in actual fact the legislative requirement is for the body receiving an FOI request to provide copies of documentation held (or explain why said documents are exempt from FOI).

So there can be a situation where the person receiving the request knows all about a given topic from a variety of sources, but because they don't necessarily have that information set out as a document, they have no option but to send back a 'no information held' response. They can't engage in discussion or correspondence on the subject, all they can do is release a document, or advise no information held.

This happened a few years ago when an FOI ended up with me about whether my Department held any plans to build a bridge across a specific body of water. In fact, there had been some very ambitious plans in the 1970s to build not only a bridge but also proposals for a motorway on raised concrete pillars right up Belfast Lough and the River Lagan - I'd spoken to Roads engineers who'd been involved, and seen old Transport Ministry feasibility studies. I'd read a bit about it in some library books, and on some road enthusiast websites. But these guys had retired by the time the FOI request came in, and the paper copies of the plans were long gone. So all I could do was send back a stark 'no information held' response, because I didn't have a sheet of paper on file with this information on it.

But if he'd just emailed seeking general information, it would have been treated as a Correspondence case rather than an FOI case, and I would have been free to wax lyrical about the Belfast Urban Motorway that never was (unfortunate choice of name, mind - BUM wouldn't have been a great acronym).

So FOI isn't always the gold standard for obtaining information - sometimes it can obscure more than it reveals.

Maybe start with an FOI, asking for any information relating to the withdrawal of invalid carriages in Northern Ireland? If that draws a blank, writing to Musgrave directly, saying that you're seeking information for a social history research paper, might help bring forward some memories from someone there?

And yes, DoH has been merged and renamed twice since 2003, so continuity's even more of a problem...

[garbaldy]

On 9/4/2022 at 2:01 PM, LightBulbFun said:

 

(and to a similar extend the Peugeot 403 estate)

 

Was that the one being advertised for sale as MOT and tax excempt ?  Wonder what became of that in the end.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Datsuncog said:

Again, I'd only be guessing but I reckon the Regional Disablement Services Building on the Musgrave Park estate might be a likely contender - the late 60s/ early 70s architecture and abundance of parking spaces for Blue Badge holders makes it seem a possible contender?

Of course, it's quite possible there were also workshops and stores on the hospital site which have now been demolished or repurposed - the overall site contains the original old turn-of-the-century redbrick hospital building, loads of lowrise 1960s concrete blocks (which are probably choc-full of asbestos and such) and some more modern 2000s buildings.

This link should show what's on the site, in glorious 360-degree vision.

Belfast, Northern Ireland - Google Maps

Good sleuthing - and hopefully UOI's now in good hands!

 

22 minutes ago, Datsuncog said:

It would probably be through the Northern Irish Department for Health, although conceivably also the Belfast Health & Social Care Trust...

I'd initially doubted they'd hold any records going back to 2003, but looking at DoH's Records Disposal Schedule indicates that twenty years is their norm for retention - after that, 'significant' records are meant to be transferred to the Public Record Office for Northern Ireland (PRONI) - but I know from working with them that they keep very little for public records.

Since you'd be going back only 19 years now, might be worth dropping them a request before the 20 year window arrives next year:

DoH Freedom of Information | Department of Health (health-ni.gov.uk)

FOI can be a bit of a double-edged sword, though - it implies that information will be provided, whereas in actual fact the legislative requirement is for the body receiving an FOI request to provide copies of documentation held (or explain why said documents are exempt from FOI).

So there can be a situation where the person receiving the request knows all about a given topic from a variety of sources, but because they don't necessarily have that information set out as a document, they have no option but to send back a 'no information held' response. They can't engage in discussion or correspondence on the subject, all they can do is release a document, or advise no information held.

This happened a few years ago when an FOI ended up with me about whether my Department held any plans to build a bridge across a specific body of water. In fact, there had been some very ambitious plans in the 1970s to build not only a bridge but also proposals for a motorway on raised concrete pillars right up Belfast Lough and the River Lagan - I'd spoken to Roads engineers who'd been involved, and seen old Transport Ministry feasibility studies. I'd read a bit about it in some library books, and on some road enthusiast websites. But these guys had retired by the time the FOI request came in, and the paper copies of the plans were long gone. So all I could do was send back a stark 'no information held' response, because I didn't have a sheet of paper on file with this information on it.

But if he'd just emailed seeking general information, it would have been treated as a Correspondence case rather than an FOI case, and I would have been free to wax lyrical about the Belfast Urban Motorway that never was (unfortunate choice of name, mind - BUM wouldn't have been a great acronym).

So FOI isn't always the gold standard for obtaining information - sometimes it can obscure more than it reveals.

Maybe start with an FOI, asking for any information relating to the withdrawal of invalid carriages in Northern Ireland? If that draws a blank, writing to Musgrave directly, saying that you're seeking information for a social history research paper, might help bring forward some memories from someone there?

And yes, DoH has been merged and renamed twice since 2003, so continuity's even more of a problem...

very interesting! going to have to think with this one, as FOI's means getting pretty serious! thankfully not the first time I have done one, but gotta think about exactly what I want and how best to phrase it!

theres also the fact that Invacars where managed by the Invalid Vehicle Service, a department of the DHSS, that may of been english, but also took care of all the NI cars as well (there was no separate invalid vehicle scheme in NI)

so I do worry that although they may of been issued from the hospital and kept there, the hospital themselves may have had nothing to do with them otherwise if that makes sense, but hopefully we can find out!

 

and yeah the owner of UOI also has a Borgward Isabella, and a Montego that is his daily driver, so you can bet your behind I pointed him in the direction of the forum  

[martc]

Now here's something that may be of interest, and was an alternative to the Simson Duo invalid carriage, the Trabant 601Hycomat.

 

The Hycomat has an automatic, electro-hydraulic clutch control and was intended for people with mobility problems. Until the Hycomat appeared, only the Simson Duo was available for the disabled of the DDR.

The Trabant 601 Hycomat was built in small numbers from 1965 to 1990, both as a saloon and estate.

[LightBulbFun]

42 minutes ago, martc said:

Now here's something that may be of interest, and was an alternative to the Simson Duo invalid carriage, the Trabant 601Hycomat.

The Hycomat has an automatic, electro-hydraulic clutch control and was intended for people with mobility problems. Until the Hycomat appeared, only the Simson Duo was available for the disabled of the DDR.

 

The Trabant 601 Hycomat was built in small numbers from 1965 to 1990, both as a saloon and estate.

 

 

 

very cool! I had read about the Hycomat in my research on the trabant (I mean who dosent love a trabant?)

but I have never seen the brochure for them like that, do you have links to any higher resolution versions so I can read the text better?

 

BTW its interesting to see how far back the white line person in a wheel chair on a dark blue background goes back to

in the UK they where black on Orange before blue IIRC, much like the one on MHJ22P   

 

EDIT: I did a bit of digging and higher rez versions can be found here

https://www.trabantteam-freital.de/extra/trabiprospekte/html/1981_601erhycomat/index.html

only slight problem is I cant read german! doh LOL

[martc]

39 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

very cool! I had read about the Hycomat in my research on the trabant (I mean who dosent love a trabant?)

but I have never seen the brochure for them like that, do you have links to any higher resolution versions so I can read the text better?

EDIT: I did a bit of digging and higher rez versions can be found here

https://www.trabantteam-freital.de/extra/trabiprospekte/html/1981_601erhycomat/index.html

only slight problem is I cant read german! doh LOL

Mine came from your actual instagram, with worse resolution than your link, and missing the fourth picture.

Here's the link - you may pick some info up from it knowing your computer skillz -

https://www.instagram.com/p/CiK1advIX0O/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY%3D

The disabled badge did used to be orange in the UK, I think the blue ones came through EU harmonisation as they are almost always blue on the continent. Wait for them to turn back to orange soon, that'll show 'em, bring back control etc.

[DodgeRover]

On 9/5/2022 at 3:50 PM, garbaldy said:

Was that the one being advertised for sale as MOT and tax excempt ?  Wonder what became of that in the end.

Don't know how many times it changed hands but some poor fucker bought it for very strong money, spent even more making it look nice then found out it was impossible to put on the road legally, (reading between the lines on their posts I think the DVLA were asking for an inspection before they would issue a new logbook), they were unhappy* as the person they bought it from clearly knew it no longer had any right to the identity tax/ MOT exempt status it was being sold with. 

[LightBulbFun]

Nelco Solocar anyone?  

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134224942741

this is the one that was amusingly registered as fuelled by gas LOL

 

[LightBulbFun]

I see a catalog of sorts is up for the Hammond collection

https://charterhouse-cars.com/the-hammond-microcar-collection

including the Acedes, but no mention any price estimates it seems

https://charterhouse-cars.com/product/ac-acedes-mark-ii