invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[keef]

We  actually had green logbooks over here as well. Don't remember if they were before or after the buff ones. There's a thread that mentions them here - https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/162526/registering-car-old-green-book but I can't find an image of one ATM. I'm surprised you haven't seen one before.

Edit: "1962 – Buff logbooks became green logbooks." - http://www.buffbooks.co.uk/history/

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, keef said:

We  actually had green logbooks over here as well. Don't remember if they were before or after the buff ones. There's a thread that mentions them here - https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/162526/registering-car-old-green-book but I can't find an image of one ATM. I'm surprised you haven't seen one before.

I have seen them   but there still a "buff logbook"  in terms of what they are, they are still a VE60

the NI thing pictured above is not a VE60, not sure what it would of been called!

(as a side note for those wondering the V5 I show as an example is from 1979)

[keef]

I thought one was an RF60 and the other a VE60?

Then we had V5, then V5C. Don't know if the old stile V5 you show got a different name when it became the type we know today? The V5C is the new name, I think.

The picture you have is of a V5/NI.

[LightBulbFun]

figured all the recent registration talk would be a good time to bring it up

but i was curious, back in the day before the DVLC when everything was local county offices

who was responsible for the general rules? ie for example starting in 1965 everyone had to switch to using Suffix plates regardless or not if they still had non suffix plates available to be issued

so im curious who set that rule for example etc

 

(as a fun side note as I mentioned before the essex marker WC was never issued in the 2 letter 4 number style, so I do wonder if we will see it end up being used as an age related plate series at some point?) 

[somewhatfoolish]

The Minister of Transport at a guess.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, somewhatfoolish said:

The Minister of Transport at a guess.

yeah thats what I was thinking as well...

[keef]

I was reading somewhere that the DVLC was formed on the instructions of the Minister of the Environment rather than Transport. maybe the DoT didn't exist back then? 

[RayMK]

In pre-DVLC days when local vehicle taxation offices were the first port of call for renewing the road fund licence and matters to do with registration, there were variations in policy. One that was fairly universal was the reservation of 6 character plates for motorcycles, the rear plates usually being square and smaller than a car's. Front plates were also smaller than a car's until the need for one was discontinued sometime around the late 1960s.  As an example, my 1967 Peugeot moped which I bought new in the Netherlands and used in Germany was registered under the British Forces Germany system until I (we) returned to the UK in 1969, whereupon Dad and I had to visit the local taxation office in Maidstone to register our imported vehicles. His 1966 Taunus thus changed from CG854B (BFG reg.) to ALM505H and my moped changed from CP389B to SKM26H.  He had plates made there and then whilst I bought some stick-on letters and numbers from the  local hardware store. He returned to pick up Mum and brother who stayed at the caravan site near Dover, hitched up the van and continued to Lincolnshire, his next posting (RAF).  I set off from Maidstone on my  moped, eventually getting to Lincolnshire a few hours later. I still had stacks of fuel left on arrival there.. The moped tank held about 5litres and my 5litre metal jerry can strapped to the parcel carrier easily covered the journey from RAF Wegberg to RAF Nocton Hall. Whilst based in Lincolnshire I bought a new CZ175 in 1971. The taxation office there did not do the '6 character' thing and it was issued with MFE476J, making the rear plate look a bit crowded. Note also that my moped and the Taunus were awarded numbers reflecting the date of importation to the UK, not the date of manufacture or sale.

Of course you already know about my 1961 Reliant, originally registered LCM66 but given DFH596A, a 1963 number, when a previous owner sold the plate to a friend in 1981. As mentioned some time ago, I have no desire to go chasing the original number because the current number has been on the car longer. It would be nice to park next to whatever carries LCM66 sometime in the future for a 'photo opportunity.'

Excuse the rambling. I think it happens as one gets older ?.

[LightBulbFun]

24 minutes ago, RayMK said:

The taxation office there did not do the '6 character' thing and it was issued with MFE476J, making the rear plate look a bit crowded. Note also that my moped and the Taunus were awarded numbers reflecting the date of importation to the UK, not the date of manufacture or sale.

indeed before 1983 (ie before prefix plates)

vehicles where always given a plate according to their date of first registration rather then their year of manufacture 

so you would often see imports and ex military vehicles where much newer plates then you would normally expect

for example this X reg traction avant! 

(I think @wuvvum has such an imported vehicle on a later plate IIRC)

as a side note, when the DVLA introduced proper age related plates you could and still can today request an age related plate appropriate to the actual age of your vehicle 

but its a fun anomaly of the old system resulting in cars wearing much newer plates then they normally would so it would be a shame to hide that if that makes sense

(so if I ended up with such a car I would not request an age related plate probably)

one thing I am wondering is how would a private plate work with one of these such vehicles

lets say you had a Y reg 1955 import, could you stick a personal Y reg plate on the car or would the DVLA force you to use an ageless plates only?

(that traction avant's original plate was YEY257W not sure how they where allowed to stick an X reg suffix plate onto it!)

[LightBulbFun]

one for @dollywobbler if you havent seen it already this got uploaded to youtube a couple weeks ago

 

 

and in other news Stuart is contuning to make good progress with his harding  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/950689934973969/permalink/2957499280959681/

he has got some form of speed control working finally! and has also applied the first coat of paint (soz @barrett )

 

[LightBulbFun]

https://flic.kr/p/2iZqCKb

for @Spottedlaurel I see there's bit of discussion as to what it is well I can tell you its an AC Acedes (Model 57) Mk10-12, or an AC Model 64 Mk3-5  (its from Late 1963-early 1964 or later)

so an invalid vehicle but not an invacar  (and certainly not an AC Petite!)

[Talbot]

On 5/2/2020 at 5:07 PM, barrett said:

That's an 8mm cine film and with the best will in the world it will never look much better than that, sadly

Not necessarily.  If that was captured using a Kinescope, there's plenty of scope to make it better.  Information here: (Also a very good youtube channel)

 

[Spottedlaurel]

Aha, you found that card!

Did you see this one as well?

The Beach, Saltburn old postcard 1970s by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, Spottedlaurel said:

Aha, you found that card!

Did you see this one as well?

The Beach, Saltburn old postcard 1970s by Spottedlaurel, on Flickr

yeah Indeed I did  , (I was wondering if you were wondering how quickly it would take me to notice/post about em LOL)

yeah I saw that one too, pretty sure that's a Model 70 as I think I can just about make out the rear wheel arches  (always nice to see the various invalid vehicles in period photos )

[LightBulbFun]

so prompted by some work Simon has me doing for the ICR

I have finally decided to put together survivors  lists for Pre Model 70 invalid vehicles starting with Invacar vehicles 

ill get the AC list done soon hopefully and see about the rest from there (sadly a lot of Pre Model 70 stuff is very fragmented and unknown etc)

as always there are some more survivors then whats listed here, but im still waiting to get a picture of the vehicle and or more info before I can add it to the list  

 

Hope you all enjoy  and if theres any I have missed or any you know about that are not on the list or know more info about the ones I have listed, as always please do let me know about it  

 

CHJ421, Invacar Model 12D, Date of first registration 1947, current status unknown, reportedly owned by a chap in London, notable for being the 2nd Invacar off the production line

 

 CJN934 Invacar Model 12D, Date of first registration 1947-48, Current status Unknown, Possibly in norfolk

 

 

DHJ828, Invacar Superluxe, Date of first registration 1949, current status unknown, current tax, no MOT, 5 from 2008-2012, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 16 October 2015,

 

 

WVX947, Invacar Mk8, date of first registration 29 September 1953, current status unknown, SORN, no MOT, 1 from 2009, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 17 September 2012,

 

 

1267H, Invacar Mk8 Date of first registration 1953, Currant status with Ian hellings in the US otherwise unknown

 

 

XPU614, Invacar Mk8, date of first registration 1954, Current status with Wroughton Science Museum, notable for having many different control options fitted, thought to be an instructional vehicle

 

Invacar, Mk10 Prototype, current status from the greeves collection otherwise Unknown

 

XGX224, Invacar Mk12A, Date of first registration 1963, Current status with Disability Museum, Buffalo, New York USA, notable for being the only known Invacar shipped to the US when new

 

NNO246C, Invacar Mk12A Date of first registration 12 October 1965, Current status unknown, untaxed since 1st may 1986

 

 

ONO454D, Invacar Mk12B, Date of first registration 1966, current status reportadly with an AC Cobra racer otherwise unknown

 

 

PEV627D, Invacar Mk12B, Date of first registration 23 February 1966, Current status thought to be with Scott milnes, untaxed since 1 January 1982, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 15 March 2019

 

XWC468F, Invacar Mk12C Date of first registration 24 January 1968, Current status with Claire (Mrs6c), undergoing recommissioning, SORN, Date of last V5c (logbook) issued 3 March 2021

 

ATW435F, Invacar Mk12D Date of first registration 1968, Current status thought to be with Jesada Technic Museum, in Thailand, otherwise unknown

 

GVW564H Invacar Mk12E, Date of first Registration ~February 1970, Current status with Hull Transport museum

GVW600H, Invacar Mk12E, Date of first registration 12 February 1970, Current status with Hamden Football Stadium museum, Glasgow, untaxed since 1 April 1985, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 31 October 2000

 

HEV109H, Invacar Mk12E, Date of first registration 1970, Current status reportedly in Holland

 

KWC896J, Invacar Mk12E, Date of first registration 26 October 1970, current status reportedly in Cambridge with a large collection of microcars, untaxed since 1 September 1993 notable for being an ex combe martin vehicle

 

LVX250J, Invacar Mk12E, Date of first Registration 31 December 1970, Current status with Adrian Leveridge, near London, Current Tax, No MOT, 6 between 2006-2017, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 12 March 2012, notable for being the only Invacar Mk12 in on road use, and being an ex combe martin vehicle, currently wearing the age related VRM JBY503J

[LightBulbFun]

as mentioned above here is the Pre Model 70, AC survivors list again same stuff applies as mentioned above, there are few I have left out for one reason or another, but if you know of any others or know of any new info regarding the ones I do have documented please do let me know about it!  

 

594BGN, AC Acedes Mk7 (Model 57), Date of first registration 4 September 1961, Current status thought to be with Jesada Technic Museum, in Thailand, untaxed since 1 July 1989 notable for being a private example and the oldest known surviving AC Acedes

 

 

 

9771KR, AC Acedes Mk10 (Model 57), Date of first registration 24 July 1964, Current status Unknown, Untaxed since 29 July 1994, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 31 October 2008, notable for being a private example and wearing the age related VRM BFW598B

 

 

 

FPD167B, AC Acedes Mk10 (Model 57), Date of first registration 8 December 1964, current status, ex combe martin vehicle otherwise unknown, SORN, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 13 September 2012

 

 

 

JPE789C, AC Acedes Mk11 (Model 57), Date of first registration 23 June 1965, current status with the Bentley Wildfowl Museum, untaxed since 2 July 2003, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 7 July 2003, notable for being the last Villers powered invalid vehicle in Ministry service

 

 

LPD806D, AC Acedes Mk11 (Model 57), Date of first registration 17 January 1966, Current status, part of the Hammond microcar collection, untaxed since 1 February 1980, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 30 November 2005

 

 

 

NPB840D, AC Acedes Mk12 (Model 57), Date of first registration 8 July 1966, Current status, now in private ownership, untaxed since 12 July 1987, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 12 October 1982

 

NPJ340D, AC Acedes Mk12 (Model 57), Date of first registration 9 September 1966, Current status unknown, untaxed since 28 November 1995, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 26 May 1994

 

AC Acedes Mk14 or Mk14A (Model 67) Current status with the ps-speicher transport museum in Germany

 

 

BPK646H, AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67) Date of first registration June 1970, Current status, thought to have been exported to the US, marked exported on the 20th of march 1990,

 

DPD715J, AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67), date of first registration 1 October 1970, current status with Ian hellings USA, untaxed since 29 January 1985

 

DPD778J, AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67), Date of first registration 7 October 1970, Current status thought to be with Jesada Technic Museum, in Thailand (ex combe martin vehicle), untaxed since 1 September 1987, Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 14 April 2004

 

AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67), Current status with Ted shepherd undergoing restoration, notable for wearing the registration plates from a 1963 private metal AC Acedes, originally registered NML72, now on a replacement VRM ALB761A

 

AC Model 64 Mk5, Current status with Simon McKeown, notable for wearing the false plates 416MOJ, and being the only known Mk5 example out of the very few Model 64's that are known to survive

 

 

 

AC Acedes Mk15 (Model 67), Current status with the Charlie’s Auto Museum in Arthurs Seat near Melbourne, notable for being a reverse control layout machine

[barrett]

Have you seen this before?

Will send you something else by PM shortly...

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, barrett said:

Have you seen this before?

Will send you something else by PM shortly...

oh thats very cool and no not something I have seen before! it made for a very interesting read,

and answered several questions I had about the harper machines  (like it explains why 61HPA is not blue! that was something I was wondering about)

its very interesting to read of how it drove and what the control layout was exactly  (I still very much want to have a drive of a Villers powered machine!)

(its a shame its been scanned in only 2 bit black and white rather then proper greyscale or colour, cant quite make out the reg of the harper pictured sadly!)

its also very interesting how they note the applications for the electric versions and worth noting that one of the big things about the Invacar at the time was it was a petrol machine that could be specced for 1 hand operation  

do you know when it dates from? I assume 1957 or thereabouts? as that's when the Harper Mk6 was introduced IIRC

thank you very much for sharing it!

[barrett]

yeah it's annoying that the quality is so bad. It's from an old Rumcar News (back when it was basically a photocopy) and sadly no credit whatsoever to the original source... which is an annoying trait of that magazine. Without looking very carefully I can't tell which magazine it's even from originally, but shouldn't be impossible to work it out. Have you clocked the max speed of the electric version!?

I had no idea about the 20mph speed limit for invalid carriages. I assume this was lifted at some point - do you know when?

I was just looking for something else and found a reference in this thread ages ago about Stuart doing a book. Can you give some more information on that?

[plasticvandan]

I've got s copy of that test somewhere,it was from one of the car magazines of the period,Autocar or motor. Lbf,somewhere in my stash I have a list Stuart printed of all surviving  cars on his register,there will be many more by now as it's about 15 years old. obviously there's a hell of a lot more than what you've got so far,and interesting none of Simon's listed either.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, barrett said:

Have you clocked the max speed of the electric version!?

indeed! not all too surprised by that, as I knew other electric invalid vehicles where pretty slow, and had started suspect they were all like that! and I cant imagine they sold very many given it probably would have suffered the same fate the Model 64 did

On 2/4/2020 at 10:17 PM, LightBulbFun said:

as I documented before, the MoH's intended replacement for the Argson was the Model 64, but the Model 64 was a full bodied machine and to make matters worse very slow

electric Machines where used a lot by their users in the same way today someone might use a Mobility scooter, compared to the user of a petrol machine that would be used much like someone uses a normal car, but the Model 64 being a full bodied machine limited their ability to act like a mobility scooter of sorts

and to make matters worse, the Model 64 was very slow, and while previous electric machines may not have been the fastest either, they where still faster (on account of not being so relatively bulky), and they where small so could stay out the way of traffic etc (much like a mobility scooter) but you could not do that in a Model 64, so a lot of Argson users bitterly held onto their machines for as long as possible 

and with a lot of complaining to the MoH, this is how the Electric tippen delta was born (the Tippen Delta being a narrow machine so once more being able to stay out of the way of traffic, sadly I don't know the performance metrics for an electric tippen!)

I have to say it must of been something to see a 1950's Argson hurtle down the road among all the 1980s cars back then!, still Hope I can someday find such a 1980s picture of an argson or other open body invalid carriage mingling among (then) modern traffic  

(still not sure how fast an electric tippen delta is but i suspect also about 10-15Mph if everything else is anything to go by!)

1 hour ago, barrett said:

I had no idea about the 20mph speed limit for invalid carriages. I assume this was lifted at some point - do you know when?

indeed was interesting to see it once more, you can also find mention of it in the Mk12c brochure, which is where I first came across, according to stuarts small book it was "lifted" on the 1st of Jan 1960, but the brochure is from 1967 at the earliest (E reg car pictured) so who knows!, I do know it was "lifted" at some point 

in that anything above 254Kg was/is no longer classed an invalid carriage, rather classed as a Motorcycle or Motor car depending on exact specifications and as such has no such speed limits applied to it, I have talked about this bit of legislation at length in the past!

(as for actual invalid carriage class invalid carriages, searching through all the regulations that I have searched through, I cant actually find any referencing a 20Mph speed limit I can find speed limits for modern mobility scooter type invalid carriages but nothing for the classical 254Kg type, either it was lifted entirely at some point or just forgotten about! and eventually just "fell off")

 

(I do know the invalid carriage class of invalid vehicle is still banned from the motorway, but anything above 254Kg is not banned from motorways)

1 hour ago, barrett said:

yeah it's annoying that the quality is so bad. It's from an old Rumcar News (back when it was basically a photocopy) and sadly no credit whatsoever to the original source... which is an annoying trait of that magazine. Without looking very carefully I can't tell which magazine it's even from originally, but shouldn't be impossible to work it out. Have you clocked the max speed of the electric version!?

ah guessing stuart has already seen it then in the past, ill still share it with him to be safe!, at least the scan its self you provided is nice and high rez!

perhaps stuart may know where it originated from  

1 hour ago, barrett said:

I was just looking for something else and found a reference in this thread ages ago about Stuart doing a book. Can you give some more information on that?

yeah the big book is more or less done, (give or take anything else me or stuart managed to discoverer/unearth etc!)

now its just a waiting game for Simon to get it published, so I sadly don't expect it anytime soon! (and I think one of the problems stuart had in the past was just finding someone who would agree to publish such a book, I dunno does anyone have any recommendations on that front? how much DOES it cost to publish a book LOL)

53 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

I've got s copy of that test somewhere,it was from one of the car magazines of the period,Autocar or motor. Lbf,somewhere in my stash I have a list Stuart printed of all surviving  cars on his register,there will be many more by now as it's about 15 years old. obviously there's a hell of a lot more than what you've got so far,and interesting none of Simon's listed either.

ah thats cool, yeah Like I said I do know of more survivors but I have left them out for various reasons sadly, like a lack of information or pictures (ideally id like to have true registration numbers and a recent picture of each machine, which is one of the reasons I did not do pre Model 70 survivor lists until now, as there's a lot less info etc out there sadly on pre Model 70 survivors and what there is out there on them is a lot less solid a lot if it is just whispers and rumors etc sadly) 

and there's also a lot for lack of better word, "politics" that limit me somewhat sadly (the whole situation as an enthusiast makes me very sad)

thats one of the reasons I have finally made the lists, because no matter what I do with the ICR, the information that I have personally gathered and researched, is staying mine so to speak!

ill happily let the ICR use/benefit from my work, but under no circumstances will I forfeit my right to do what I want with my own information and research etc!

[Mrs6C]

It has been dry and sunny this week, so this afternoon I went up to the FoD to do some farm chores and got around to doing some odds and ends on REV as well.

The front tyre had gone down...

 

It took air though, so REV is now level again.

 

I took out the fuel tank!

The base shows some signs of corrosion and may have a few pinholes, but it's hard to say until it gets a good clean, then it can have a proper inspection.

 

It could be the front petrol pipe union that was the leak culprit. This is a plastic three-way connector, with one of the connectors crimped off! It's very odd. It needs to be replaced with something more suitable, when the fuel hose is replaced in its entirety.

 

Both of Dolly's rear tyres had gone flat but only one of them took air. I popped her rear wheels up onto a couple of wooden blocks, to keep her at a more normal height above ground, even with both tyres flat. She too is now reasonably level front to back, although when viewed head on, she is listing at a rather jaunty angle...

 

[barrett]

I'll PM you tomorrow with thoughts on the 'big book' if that's okay

[LightBulbFun]

34 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

It has been dry and sunny this week, so this afternoon I went up to the FoD to do some farm chores and got around to doing some odds and ends on REV as well.

The front tyre had gone down...

 

It took air though, so REV is now level again.

 

I took out the fuel tank!

The base shows some signs of corrosion and may have a few pinholes, but it's hard to say until it gets a good clean, then it can have a proper inspection.

 

It could be the front petrol pipe union that was the leak culprit. This is a plastic three-way connector, with one of the connectors crimped off! It's very odd. It needs to be replaced with something more suitable, when the fuel hose is replaced in its entirety.

 

Both of Dolly's rear tyres had gone flat but only one of them took air. I popped her rear wheels up onto a couple of wooden blocks, to keep her at a more normal height above ground, even with both tyres flat. She too is now reasonably level front to back, although when viewed head on, she is listing at a rather jaunty angle...

 

oh wow, thank you very much for taking time out of your day to work on REV for me  

thats very much appreciated!  and im very happy to finally see the tank removed!

good to know the fuel tank is not massively crispy like I had originally feared, hopefully it can be cleaned up like you said,  and is not too holy and if there any holes that they can hopefully be patched in some manner!

(even if it was/is not leaking, hoiking it out and giving it clean up and a fresh coat of paint at some point is probably not a bad idea in general given how the tanks are known to rust out sadly, and they dont exactly grow in trees sadly!)

 

that 3 way bit is odd wonder why that was done, AFAIK the fuel pipe is just meant to directly attach to an outlet on the fuel tank itself...

perhaps that thing was done at some point to make installation or removal easier? I know @Zelandeth had a bit of a faff installing TPAs new tank at the time

I assume there was a small bit of pipe coming from the 3 way bit going to (or from?) the tank itself?

 

also just nice to see REV again  I do miss my invacar!

(also happy to hear you have sorted out a temporary solution to Dolly's flat tyre issues!)

[LightBulbFun]

16 minutes ago, barrett said:

I'll PM you tomorrow with thoughts on the 'big book' if that's okay

sure thing I dont think thats a problem  

 

[somewhatfoolish]

Quote

... lack of sound damping results in considerable commotion when accelerating or climbing; the untrimmed top and steel floor amplify this.

[keef]

No idea what this is, but it looks like it might share some of Invacar's heritage.

[plasticvandan]

Fuldamobil,German microcar,fitted with the same engine as the Messerschmitt

[C1am]

Apologies if you've already seen this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUIHfSD8yZg

The guy at 3.26 looks as if he's about to burst a blood vessel.

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, C1am said:

Apologies if you've already seen this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUIHfSD8yZg

The guy at 3.26 looks as if he's about to burst a blood vessel.

ah yeah iv seen those a few times  but I appricate the heads up  

really good for spotting/getting high(er) quality shots of the more obscure invalid vehicles where what pictures there are of them are usually very low quality etc 

their latest video goes up to 1959 where you can get relatively good shots of some of the earlier full bodied carriages etc

 

its a shame theres no sound!