invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

36 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

How heavy are these unladen, I was perusing my diahatsu V5 the other day and it has a revenue weight listed at 1200kg and a gross train of 1800kg, which going off the plate is the max laden weight etc, the car is I only 740kg with nothing in so I gather a M70 is possibly ~ 330kg unladen and maybe 300ish without fluids allowing a standard driver unit of 68kg? 

thats a fun question

the revenue weight in the V5 for REV/a Model 70 from March 1976 onwards (when the rollover bar was added) is 413/414Kg

the revenue weight in the V5 of a Model 70 before March 1976, is 410Kg,

and the maximum kerb weight is listed as 896LBS (407Kg) in the workshop manual. (keep in mind the workshop manual predates the Model 70 Mark B and the Model 70 Mark B from post March 76)

with a separate maximum load of 420LBS (190Kg)

now to add to the fun, REVs weight is listed as 413.2Kg in her 1985 V5 but by her Y2K V5 its just listed as 413.0Kg, I dont know if 410Kg Model 70's where actually 410.something or not, since I have never seen an old V5 for one of those

either way this is way over the 150Kg weight limit for a class 3 invalid carriage (mobility scooter), (and the 254Kg old school invalid carriage specification as well) the fun thing is, they don't say what happens if an invalid vehicle weighs over 150Kg anywhere on the DVLA website,

but thankfully the RTA of 1988 comes in hand here as that still has a rule for old school invalid vehicles

as previously explained if an invalid carriages weighs more then 254Kg its no longer classed as an invalid carriage, and is classed as a "Motor Cycle" unless it weighs more then 410Kg then its classed as a "motor car" 

(this is where I wonder about the 410Kg Model 70s are they classed as Motorcycles or Motorcars!)

 

the good thing of all this tho, is since REV is classed as a Motor Car and not a Tricycle, I dont have to worry about the whole you have to be over 21 to drive a 3 wheeler thing with REV, that you may encounter with a Reliant 3 wheeler for example  

[Jikovron]

Imo there is no grey area to worry about about driving them on a car licence as the old B1 category for under 400/550*kg vehicles is superseded by B and A categories, A being restricted to trikes. Pass the test and enjoy !

*when carrying goods.

I gather the insurance exemption may be related to E bikes where they have a max speed and power threshold of 15mph and 250watts respectively although I guess the larger 8mph scooters possibly have more power and have some sort of dispensation maybe. I've often pondered getting a heavy quad through an MSVA and have noted loads of random crossover in legalisation regarding the weights,speeds and power limits of various classification without any clear definition. 

 

With the kerb weight being 407/413 I imagine it must be 380ish dry.

[LightBulbFun]

23 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

Imo there is no grey area to worry about about driving them on a car licence as the old B1 category for under 400/550*kg vehicles is superseded by B and A categories, A being restricted to trikes. Pass the test and enjoy !

 

sadly due to some EU Law change a while back, if you passed your test after a certain date you can only drive a Tricycle on a full car licence if your over 21

but like I said since my Model 70 is not classed a Tricycle its a non issue for me  

https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q504.htm

 

23 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

I gather the insurance exemption may be related to E bikes where they have a max speed and power threshold of 15mph and 250watts respectively although I guess the larger 8mph scooters possibly have more power and have some sort of dispensation maybe. I've often pondered getting a heavy quad through an MSVA and have noted loads of random crossover in legalisation regarding the weights,speeds and power limits of various classification without any clear definition. 

 

I think mobility scooters are insurance exempt because the government allows them to be so, iv seen petrol powered mobility scooters so i dont think their insurance exempt just because they are electric powered, since not all of them are electric

although again, all this is not applicable to the Model 70 and co, as they are classed as type of vehicle which does need road insurance 

I do who was the insurance broker for them back in the old days when they were in government service, if one plowed into your shiny new maxi or such, who would you or your insurance company call to make a claim against! LOL

23 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

With the kerb weight being 407/413 I imagine it must be 380ish dry.

it would be quite interesting to round up a Model 70 Mark A Mark B and Post march 76, and weigh each one and see exactly whats what!

[LightBulbFun]

that slightly awkward but happy moment when your searching for one thing but find something else entirely that you didn't know about but still happy to find  

case in point I was going through the chassis numbers of some Nelco solocars in hopes of finding JLJ926 as it had been plated raped, but I don't know what its new reg is or what its chassis number is exactly, so I was going through the chassis numbers I thought it may of sat between, where I came across someones Trillox that I dont think is on anyone's list, twas unexpected to say the least! (especially as the chassis numbers i was entering where all fairly generic so i was getting plenty of partial matches to more modern vehicles and just other older vehicles)

 

sadly was plated raped pretty recently in 2019, it was originally DEP20

[Eyersey1234]

That's a shame it lost its original plate especially so recently, to me in a way it's lost its history now. 

[LightBulbFun]

8 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

That's a shame it lost its original plate especially so recently, to me in a way it's lost its history now. 

yes indeed, luckily with Trilox's AFAIK the number plates don't hold extra significance to the vehicle, its just like the plate on any other private car, but it can still cause someone to lose track of a vehicle, ie if someone was keeping an eye on the vehicle under DEP20, and now suddenly how are they going to find it now!

(which is exactly what happened with JLJ926)

and plate raping is a PITA esp when it happens to ministry vehicles, as for those vehicles the registration marks hold a lot more significance to the vehicle, due to how they were registered in blocks and the such like and when such vehicles get plate raped it can stifle research and be a big PITA, see VES108S/(Ex XEV88S) for a good example

if only we had known its original plate from the get go, it would of saved me a lot of time and headache!, luckily I have since found tools that can tell me what the original plate of a vehicle is, but I sadly don't have anything to tell me where a registration mark has been if that makes sense, so if I only know a vehicles old plate, then yeah it becomes a bit of an issue!

and on top of all of this its just sad to see a vehicle lose its original plate, esp after having it for so many years, so yeah I just dont like plate raping in general

[LightBulbFun]

On 11/24/2019 at 9:28 PM, strangeangel said:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raleigh-RM9-Ultramatic-Moped-/293345218996

 

It's only in Barnsley if anyone wants it looked over <cough> @UltraWomble <cough>

 

 

turns out it actually is part of the same reg series a block of invacar Mk12Ds is part of  see ATW435F! (pic robbed off of ebay, someone is selling a load of RUMCar magazines)

[LightBulbFun]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:00 PM, Datsuncog said:

Most of the cars in the collection seem to have either been bought at auction, donated by families or manufacturers, or are there on long-term loan. I did ask the curatorial staff in my last email if they could provide any history on WOI, but I've not yet heard anything back - so maybe time for another rattle.

 

did you ever hear back from them on where they got WOI from, im still quite curious about it  

for what its worth with my fancy new tool, i can tell that it does not have a scrapped marker

but did have a keeper change to its 2nd keeper on the 29th of the 11th 1993, which interestingly is about when the tax disk in its windscreen expired IIRC

 

side note, the driving lesson on tuesday won't be happening sadly, thats been postponed to an unknown date, as sadly my driving instructor was involved in an accident on saturday, thankfully no one was hurt, but he is now awaiting a replacement car 

poor Pug 308, thing was literally brand new!, wonder if the new-new car will be another pug 308 or something else, either way it will be the 3rd car iv had for my lessons!

(first one was a Pug 308, but I just happened to show up right when BSM did their yearly car renewal, so it was replaced with another but new Pug 308 as pictured a few pages back)

[quicksilver]

On 11/30/2019 at 12:35 PM, LightBulbFun said:

so this is very interesting! cc @quicksilver and @Datsuncog

I was just doing some idle reg bashing, and I got reminded that LOI6831, was the only NI AC Model 70 to return "AC (ELECTRIC)" (most just return "AC" or "A C") and I also noticed that compared LOI6835 which was registered 1/3/1976, LOI6831 was registered on the 3rd of the 3rd 1978!

so I thought to myself, this is not actually british registried is it?, so I shoved it into the DVLA checker

and low and behold! it shows up!, keeping in mind that none of the other NI Cars show up on the DVLA checker (they only show up on my 3rd party tools etc)

so this looks like that a NI Model 70 could keep its NI Registration mark, even once somehow moved to england?

but that still leaves the mystery of VNB590S, since if it was Ex NI car, then what happened to its reg plate etc!

(hence why I futher think, that it was meant to be a NI car that just was never sent over/registried at the time so had to be registered at/by heywood)

of course there is the question of how did LOI6831 end up back in england, but maybe just the keeper/user decided to move to england and just simply drove it home!

so they would of had to have registered it with the DVLC

 

edit: just to be sure I went through every AC and Invacar Model 70 I have documented with a NI reg plate, and as I thought apart from LOI6831, none show up on the DVLA checker at all

Interesting. It certainly looks like LOI6831 moved from NI to GB, when it was a couple of years old and most likely because its user moved across the Irish Sea and was allowed to keep it rather than going through the hassle of returning it to Belfast and acquiring another from Heywood. That 1981 V5 suggests it may then have been reallocated to another user in GB for its last four years. As for VNB590S, it could have been part of the unregistered stock in Belfast. Maybe it had an unusual control layout that Heywood didn't have in stock so they asked their colleagues in Belfast if they had one they could send over. Either that or it had been used by Invacar as a development vehicle and when Model 70 production ceased it was surplus to requirements and sold/given to Heywood unregistered.

Sorry to hear about your instructor's accident, hope he gets back on the road soon.

[LightBulbFun]

indeed yeah id not be surprised if something like that happened

one thing I want to figure out exactly what where the rules back then regarding NI cars in england and vice versa, I know today you can keep the registration mark, but I don't know how it worked in the late 70's long before anything was centralised between the 2 countries

its worth noting that Model 70 production ended in Early 1978, (I think February 1978 for Invacar and March or April 1978 for AC) so Model 70's where still in production by the time of VNB590S and LOI6831's registration on the DVLA (side note VNB is an AC not an Invacar)

its interesting to note that VNB and LOI are very close in chassis number, so I wonder if they were sent back to the UK together for some reason?, and that VNB maybe never got registried before being sent back, whereas LOI did get regged in NI before being sent back?

another thing that makes me think this, is LOI's details check out properly, AC (ELECTRIC) and Invalid vehicle

where as VNB is registered as a A/CINVALIDCAR and is registered as a Tricycle, seems lot more ad hoc

or maybe VNB was sent to heywood, and LOI was sent back to AC for some reason, and so AC took care of registering it and knew how to do things to keep its NI registration mark where as maybe heywood elected to registire it without trying to retain the registration mark or any previous NI connections

who knows!, as mentioned before LOI6381 is the only "NI" Model 70 to show up as AC (ELECTRIC) all others don't show up as such they show up as "AC" or "A C" mostly, which again points to them being registered by a "3rd" party in NI rather then by AC who would of registered them as "AC (ELECTRIC)"

 

indeed I hope is ok and is able to get back on the road soon!, 

 

BTW on the note of unusual registrations etc, REV453R and RAR29R, indeed look to have been part of Heywoods reserve stock, as they had keeper changes and V5s issued in the 1980s and where marked scrapped as follows REV453R 21-3-1996, RAR29R 17-3-1986, indicating they where around in the 1980s even tho they had not been taxed past their first year

and it explains how they still show up on the DVLA  

I wonder who the keeper changes where to exactly...

[quicksilver]

So the legend of unused and effectively brand new Model 70s being scrapped is true! The more we learn, the less logical the whole Invalid Vehicle Service seems to be, but then we're trying to apply common sense to a government agency! Perhaps Heywood requested two Model 70s from Belfast in early 1978 and they sent over LOI6831 and an unregistered one that became VNB590S, but there must have been a very specific reason for doing so as we know they had at least two of their own (REV453R and RAR29R) sitting in the warehouse unused. It's also odd that RAR29R was scrapped when it was only nine years old and older Model 70s were still on the road, yet REV453R lasted another decade in storage.

I think 1983 is the date that the V5 was introduced, so those two presumably had V5s issued to the DHSS then to replace their old buff logbooks.

[LightBulbFun]

38 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

So the legend of unused and effectively brand new Model 70s being scrapped is true! The more we learn, the less logical the whole Invalid Vehicle Service seems to be, but then we're trying to apply common sense to a government agency! Perhaps Heywood requested two Model 70s from Belfast in early 1978 and they sent over LOI6831 and an unregistered one that became VNB590S, but there must have been a very specific reason for doing so as we know they had at least two of their own (REV453R and RAR29R) sitting in the warehouse unused. It's also odd that RAR29R was scrapped when it was only nine years old and older Model 70s were still on the road, yet REV453R lasted another decade in storage.

I think 1983 is the date that the V5 was introduced, so those two presumably had V5s issued to the DHSS then to replace their old buff logbooks.

yes indeed looks like that, if not new, then very close to it! such a waste...

another one to back up the legend is HCK972N which along with its DHSS reserve sticker in the windscreen, has only about 100 miles on the odometer, and I doubt someone has taken an electric Tippen delta round the clock!, so it is believable that the same could be true of Model 70's, and REV453R and RAR29R info backs this up

(always tickled me that they went through the trouble making a sticker for their reserve cars, it would be a right laugh to slap one to REV451R!   "JCB421N" also has one of these stickers) 

its interesting to note that REV453R and and RAR29R both only had 2 keepers, the 1st keeper from when they where registered and then the 2nd keeper in the 1980s, I would agree with you on the buff log book thing, but both where registered after the V5 scheme was introduced IIRC so I dont think it would of been that, although the bellow link says VE60s where still issued alongside V5s for a while so who knows?)

1983 is supposedly the cut off date for handing in a buff logbook so it may explain why all these not taxed for on road tippen deltas and model 64's all have the same November 1983 V5 date, perhaps they where all issued V5s automatically right at the end of the buff logbook exchange thing

http://www.buffbooks.co.uk/history/

im wondering if maybe REV and RAR were still registered to Invacar, and in the 1980s during some admin, the DHSS finally transferred them to themselves?, its still sadly a bit unknown as to how the keepership went with government invalid vehicles

another one is WVW268S, untaxed since 79 but, had a keeper change to its 4th keeper on the 1st of the 4th 1990 (no scrapped marker and sadly I dont have any details of when keepers 2 and 3 got ahold of it), this one does looked to have at least served a year or so in service before being mothballed, I imagine TJN352R would of faced a similar fate had it not been issued to Mrs webb in 1979 

 

 

from what I can see the oldest Model 70 to survive until the end in 2003/2004 was BPE29H, one of the Prototype Model 70's!, and oldest production car that survived until the end was JPH362K, and the oldest Invacar Model 70 being SPU860K

assuming those cars where still those cars by the end and not other Model 70's wearing those plates!

 

on the NI front, as you say if Heywood did request 2 Model 70's back from NI, I Do wonder why since as you say, they would of had plenty of their own stock, and esp with VNB590S, there still would of been Model 70's rolling off the production line

also worth noting along side VNB590S and LOI6831, is CXE1 and DPJ930, whos chassis numbers follow on directly from LOI6831 which really has me scratching my head!

[quicksilver]

CXE1 and DPJ930 appear to be nothing more than red herrings that have nothing to do with the invalid carriage story, pre-war AC cars that happen to have the same chassis numbers as later Model 70s, and as those cars survive and the Model 70s don't, that's what the VIN site will return. There probably were additional NI Model 70s with those chassis numbers that followed on from LOI6831 but aren't in any online records.

[LightBulbFun]

23 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

CXE1 and DPJ930 appear to be nothing more than red herrings that have nothing to do with the invalid carriage story, pre-war AC cars that happen to have the same chassis numbers as later Model 70s, and as those cars survive and the Model 70s don't, that's what the VIN site will return. There probably were additional NI Model 70s with those chassis numbers that followed on from LOI6831 but aren't in any online records.

aye I was thinking that, but just very coincidental

however I did a bit of quick googling and found GPF957 FPA707 and HPJ878 which are other 16/80's and all have the same chassis number format

so yeah, just very coincidental! it does go to show just how far back this whole AC (ELECTRIC) name/thing goes, (both HPJ878 and FPA707 is also down as AC (ELECTRIC) )

(I did initially wonder if CXE1/DPJ930 was a case of someone getting ahold of some Model 70 logbooks and manipulating them to suit a couple ACs they had no documents for! but I doubt thats the case now)

[egg]

53 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

(always tickled me that they went through the trouble making a sticker for their reserve cars, it would be a right laugh to slap one to REV451R!   "JCB421N" also has one of these stickers) 

Yeah, I think getting a graphics company to knock up a replica sticker or two might be fun at some point. It's another part of Invacar history...

[LightBulbFun]

Woo! I found a pre Mk5 Model 64 that still shows up on the DVLA database, up until now I did not know exactly how a Pre mk5's chassis number was interpreted on the DVLA database, (I knew what they looked like on the chassis plate, but I was not sure how the DVLA database would interpret it so I was not sure how to search the DVLA database with those chassis numbers) now I that I have found one that still shows up, I have been able to pull its chassis number

 

and from that I have been able to ID a previously unknown registration number AC Model 64 Mk4 survivor, that I now know its reg is JPD612C  

(since i was able to take the chassis number from the Mk4 above HPB134C and jog forward with it till I found JPD614C,  which does still show up on the DVLA also, and then since I could see that one was 2 chassis numbers ahead of the unknown one it was easy enough to work backwards to JPD612C, which sadly does not show up on the DVLA database)

I found out about HPB, because in the Spare parts manual, lists the registration numbers, each Mk of Model 64 starts from, as seen here

 

and I went through each one of those reg numbers going up 1 by 1 till I found one that still showed up  

(I started from TPF801F and went up, but none showed up there with 821F being a normal car, so I started from HPB121C where I thankfully found HPB134C that still showed up!)

 

its interesting to note that HPB134C is a high 6900's number and JPD is a low 7000's number the reason this is interesting to note, is because according to the brief pictorial history of the invalid tricycle, AC only made 2182 AC Model 64's

and if the only made 2182, then why are the chassis numbers into the 7000s!

[Eyersey1234]

6 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Woo! I found a pre Mk5 Model 64 that still shows up on the DVLA database, up until now I did not know exactly how a Pre mk5's chassis number was interpreted on the DVLA database, (I knew what they looked like on the chassis plate, but I was not sure how the DVLA database would interpret it so I was not sure how to search the DVLA database with those chassis numbers) now I that I have found one that still shows up, I have been able to pull its chassis number

 

and from that I have been able to ID a previously unknown registration number AC Model 64 Mk4 survivor, that I now know its reg is JPD612C  

(since i was able to take the chassis number from the Mk4 above HPB134C and jog forward with it till I found JPD614C,  which does still show up on the DVLA also, and then since I could see that one was 2 chassis numbers ahead of the unknown one it was easy enough to work backwards to JPD612C, which sadly does not show up on the DVLA database)

I found out about HPB, because in the Spare parts manual, lists the registration numbers, each Mk of Model 64 starts from, as seen here

 

and I went through each one of those reg numbers going up 1 by 1 till I found one that still showed up  

(I started from TPF801F and went up, but none showed up there with 821F being a normal car, so I started from HPB121C where I thankfully found HPB134C that still showed up!)

 

its interesting to note that HPB134C is a high 6900's number and JPB is a low 7000's number the reason this is interesting to note, is because according to the brief pictorial history of the invalid tricycle, AC only made 2182 AC Model 64's

and if the only made 2182, then why are the chassis numbers into the 7000s!

Did AC make any invalid carriages before the Model 64? Just wondering if the Model 64 ones carried on from any previous AC models. 

[LightBulbFun]

On 8/9/2019 at 2:23 PM, Jon said:

Saw this thread and thought of you!

http://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/210525/retro-trailers

Not sure if you can garner any info for number plate runs etc. from the plate in the first post?

 

 

On 8/9/2019 at 2:39 PM, LightBulbFun said:

Oh very cool thanks for the heads up/link!

stealing the picture and posting it in here to keep it safe!

Iv never seen an AC Acedes Model 64's VIN plate before so its very informative for me

thanks to the above work I can now say what the registration of this trailer/poor Model 64 would of been   

[LightBulbFun]

3 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Did AC make any invalid carriages before the Model 64? Just wondering if the Model 64 ones carried on from any previous AC models. 

well Before the Model 64 was the Model 57, AC Acedes which is the petrol version of the Model 64

but AFAIK, the Model 57 used its own chassis numbering scheme

and then before that was the Model 43 AC All weather Tricycle, which again AFAIK used its own chassis number series 

so yeah its a bit of a head scratcher

it MAY be that it continues on from a previous model, but they just changed the leading letters to reflect the change to electric, but iv not seen that done before, when the leading letters change, AC has always started from 1 again etc

[Eyersey1234]

@LightBulbFun thanks for the explanation, it was just a thought. Certainly intriguing. 

[busmansholiday]

If you could travel back in time, I'd have made a note of the reg and chassis details on my grandfathers. Sadly it's not possible, I just remember when he died in 1968, my dad saying they simply told the government and they sent a man around to collect it and take it back. 

[LightBulbFun]

42 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

@LightBulbFun thanks for the explanation, it was just a thought. Certainly intriguing. 

Happy to help  

as a break down

the Model 43, the AC All weather tricycle, this was ACs first invalid vehicle introduced in about 1949-1950

then in 1957 came the Model 57, AC Acedes Mk1-12 or Mk4-12 (its not entirely known if Mk1-3 where Acedes or All weather tricycles), it was available in both hard and floppy top options, powered by a 197cc villiers engine produced from 1957 to 1971

 

 

then in 1958 upon request of the government, AC introduced the Model 64, an electric version of the Model 57 this one had no marketing name as it was solely intended for the government purchase (note the car in the picture is on false plates), there where 5 marks, produced from 1958 to 1972 (with the Mk4A introducing a sliding seat and the Mk5 had parallelogram front suspension)

then in April or may 1967 the AC Acedes Mk14, Model 67 was introduced, this was basically the same platform of the Model 57, but fitted with an updated new fibreglass body

then in June 1969 the AC Acedes Mk15 Model 67 was introduced, this added parallelogram front suspension which gave a nicer softer ride then then the previous C-tube suspension, and also IIRC prevented the front wheel from cambering when turning (an easy external clue to a Mk15 is the lack of front mold lines and the front towing eye)

 

this completes the AC line up before the Model 70  

its worth noting that its thought the reason the AC Model 57 and 64 remained in production even after the 67 and even 70 where introduced is because of its metal bolt together body, allowed for easier modifications to the body itself when adapting to say someone who needs an extra tall roof or something such, as shown bellow  

(unofficially the tallest british car ever made! I think)

 

12 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

If you could travel back in time, I'd have made a note of the reg and chassis details on my grandfathers. Sadly it's not possible, I just remember when he died in 1968, my dad saying they simply told the government and they sent a man around to collect it and take it back. 

I have thought about that from time to time, I recall you mentioned traveling it at one point in time

do you remember any details from that or which Invalid vehicle it was?  (ie was it an Invacar Mk12 or an AC Model 57 etc?)

[LightBulbFun]

so was going through the chassis numbers in the very low 6000's and I came across this one!

I did not expect to come across one so early!, seeing as the Model 64 was introduced in 1958, and this is from 1960, suddenly the production figure of 2182 makes more sense, (since I found SPB634F which is late Mid 7000's although funnily enough I cant seem to find any later than it, maybe the Mk4A switched to different chassis number format or not, I know the Mk5 did, but I already know the Mk5 chassis number format and I have gone through every single Mk5 chassis number, as mentioned a page or 2 back I believe there where 200 Mk5s produced)

although the question still remains, why did they start from such a high number...

[Eyersey1234]

Maybe it was to make it appear there were more built than there actually were. How many invalid vehicles of all varients did AC build? 

[Mr Pastry]

10 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

so was going through the chassis numbers in the very low 6000's and I came across this one!

I did not expect to come across one so early!, seeing as the Model 64 was introduced in 1958, and this is from 1960, suddenly the production figure of 2182 makes more sense, (since I found SPB634F which is late Mid 7000's although funnily enough I cant seem to find any later than it, maybe the Mk4A switched to different chassis number format or not, I know the Mk5 did, but I already know the Mk5 chassis number format and I have gone through every single Mk5 chassis number, as mentioned a page or 2 back I believe there where 200 Mk5s produced)

although the question still remains, why did they start from such a high number...

I have researched this sort of thing in the past with other makes of small-production vehicles, and I think you can read too much into chassis numbers.  They would probably have started from a convenient blank number which would leave space in the sequence for whatever else they were building at the time, and it is probable that not all available numbers would have been used.

It is interesting that some of the spare parts info that you have uploaded identifies change points by registration number, not chassis number, so maybe the factory didn't take the chassis numbers too seriously.

Have you been in touch with the AC owners club/register/whatever?  They may well have all the factory records even if they are not much interested in Invalid cars.  As this was a Government scheme it is also worth seeing if the Public Record Office have anything.

[LightBulbFun]

7 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Maybe it was to make it appear there were more built than there actually were. How many invalid vehicles of all varients did AC build? 

I dont think AC would do that but who knows!

sadly its not known how many AC all weather tricycles where produced

its said there were 13,155 Model 57's produced and 2182 Model 64s produced

and then 5928 Model 67's (this number I have personally verified to be true or at least very close to it!)

and 9175 DHSS AC Model 70's (excluding the prototypes and private cars) this one was relatively easy as I could add up all the chassis blocks and get a total figure  

5 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

I have researched this sort of thing in the past with other makes of small-production vehicles, and I think you can read too much into chassis numbers.  They would probably have started from a convenient blank number which would leave space in the sequence for whatever else they were building at the time, and it is probable that not all available numbers would have been used.

It is interesting that some of the spare parts info that you have uploaded identifies change points by registration number, not chassis number, so maybe the factory didn't take the chassis numbers too seriously.

Have you been in touch with the AC owners club/register/whatever?  They may well have all the factory records even if they are not much interested in Invalid cars.  As this was a Government scheme it is also worth seeing if the Public Record Office have anything.

yes, its interesting, because AC generally didn't do this sort of thing,

for example each revision of the AC Model 67 got its own chassis number range starting from 1 each time

although its worth noting with how far back the Model 64 goes it may be they did things differently in 1958, I know the Model 57's from back then (or as far back as I can go) have some slight chassis number shinagians im still trying to figure out, (but its not quite the same thing)

funnily enough 769RPJ is now the oldest AC invalid vehicle I know of that still shows up on the DVLA checker, before that it was 594BGN and 1940PE

sadly from what I have seen the AC Owners club is not much use, maybe with ALB they are starting to warm up to them (sadly I have not heard back from the owner of ALB761A)

but for the longest of time they shunned invalid vehicles, and with AC going through so many owners etc most records are lost sadly, and apparently at one point AC point blank said they didn't make any invalid vehicles!

 

indeed on the spare parts list, its interesting, sometimes the spares book will give both registration and chassis number the change takes place from (it does this for the Model 70 section ie it says "Model 70 Mark B from registration no WPC751M (Chassis No xxxx)")

sometimes it will only give a registration number, as above, and sometimes it will only give a chassis number with no reg number as per a section in the Invacar Mk12 pages!

[LightBulbFun]

On 12/2/2019 at 8:53 PM, LightBulbFun said:

the Model 43, the AC All weather tricycle, this was ACs first invalid vehicle introduced in about 1949-1950

quick addendum to this section, just checked the brief pictorial history of the invalid tricycle, and it says 2000 Mk1's where produced and 1000 Mk2's so that makes for a total of 3000 AC All weather Tricycles  

sadly this nullifies a theory I had that perhaps the Model 64 chassis numbers continued on from the AC All weather tricycle for some reason

(I do know that in 1966, the Model 57's leading 2 chassis letters changed, but instead of starting from 1 again, it just continued from the previous 2 letters highest number)

 

although doing a bit of quick reg bashing, I wonder if the AC petite chassis numbers continued from the end of the AC All weather tricycle, and then from the end of the AC petite there the Model 64 continued onwards?

(as checking a few AC petites most return chassis numbers in the high 4000s to mid 5000s)

[LightBulbFun]

19 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

although doing a bit of quick reg bashing, I wonder if the AC petite chassis numbers continued from the end of the AC All weather tricycle, and then from the end of the AC petite there the Model 64 continued onwards?

(as checking a few AC petites most return chassis numbers in the high 4000s to mid 5000s)

managed to get a chance to speak with Stuart last night, sadly, although the AC petite chassis numbers start from the 4000's or so, they run into the 6000's by the Mk2, so that would overlap with the Model 64, so its not a case of one following on from the other

 

we did make several very interesting Model 70 discoveries however , its well known of course the Model 70 was designed by AC, and that Invacar had no involvement in the development of the Model 70

but it turns out that it was Invacar that was the one who did all the Mark B/Crash test safety improvements! from 1974 onwards (Chassis strengthening, Fuel tank modifications, Rollover bar mounting etc) Although its from after production had started, who knew that Invacar did end up involved with the Model 70 design eventually  quite the bomb shell

you would of thought when the DHSS wanted a strengthened chassis and improved crash safety, they would of just let AC get on with it, but no it looks like Invacar was the one responsible for all that! maybe the DHSS finally took pity on them and gave them some design work to do finally?

(on the note of crash safety its interesting to note that the front mudguard assembly is listed as collapsable in the spare parts manual, I wonder if that counts as a form of front crumple zone  )

 

there was also a proposed modifications for a rear mounted fuel tank but no manufacturer is attributed to that one sadly

 

another very interesting thing, is we figured out that most of the Model 70 front suspension design is dated to 1967 and attributed to AC, so that confirms that it was AC that developed the parallelogram front suspension, and backs up my theory

that the ministry must of seen it during Model 70 development and went "right I want both of you (AC and Invacar) to fit this suspension design to existing models" producing the AC Acedes Mk15, the Invacar Mk12E and the AC Model 64 Mk5

 

and we  also discovered there where 3 sizes of Model 70 steering wheel designs with Dates from Jan 1976, a 12 inch wheel a 13.5 inch wheel and a 15 inch wheel,

im pretty sure the 15 inch wheel is the Austin 1100 wheel seen on most steering wheel Model 70's but I wonder @Mrs6C if Dolly's wheel measures 13.5 inches in diameter?

it may explain dolly's unusual steering wheel (especially as Dolly is a November 1976 Model 70) as its always been on my mind, was that wheel a factory fitment or fitted after the fact

 

another interesting thing is how a lot of the base Model 70 design is dated to November 1970 seems like thats when they finished everything and where ready to go into production, but things took until June-July 1971 to finally get rolling, as seen with GPD781J-GPD830J

(its interesting to note that november 1970 is from after the user trial cars which seemingly date to July 1970)

(there are some November 1970 Model 70 bits attributed to Invacar, but all of it seems to be very small stuff like nuts and bolts and what have you)

 

also got a text message from my driving instructor, looks like he has got himself another car and has booked me in for another lesson this friday  

[coalnotdole]

Came across this sorry looking bit of blue fibreglass poking out from underneath a pile of dumped rubble in Darvel Scotland this week - Can any Invacar lickers confirm/rule out what it is?

Looked to have at least a partial plywood floor and the rear suspension looks quite distinctive if you know what your comparing it too i guess!

Didn't have time to dig about and see if there was anything else identifiable

 

Dave

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, coalnotdole said:

Came across this sorry looking bit of blue fibreglass poking out from underneath a pile of dumped rubble in Darvel Scotland this week - Can any Invacar lickers confirm/rule out what it is?

Looked to have at least a partial plywood floor and the rear suspension looks quite distinctive if you know what your comparing it too i guess!

Didn't have time to dig about and see if there was anything else identifiable

 

Dave

very interesting find! its definitely not Model 70

I want to say Tippen Delta? but im not 100% sure (the partnering on the fibreglass makes me want to say AC, but it does not look like an AC Model 67, although iv not seen one up close in such detail yet sadly, and iv not seen the fibreglass patterning of a Tippen Delta yet)

if you can find the rest of it, you might find a Villiers 11E engine buried, those are worth a good bit of coin on their own

so if you (or anyone else!) need any incentive to go have another look at it for me there ya go

because im quite curious what it is, and where the rest of it is!

but I appreciate you having a looksy for me