Old modern dervs

[artdjones]

We have done 133k kms(80k miles) on a 1.6 Hdi fitted to a C5 - a little engine in quite

a big car.No problems with DPF or turbo.The EGR valve wore out just after we got it with

around 160k kms on it.I stuck on a second hand one which has lasted ever since although it

did stick partly open once.I cleaned it out and it was fine.The thing is though that the car has always

had top spec oil ,usually Total Ineo ECS,every 10-12 k kms.Cheap mechanical insurance.

 

A lot of diesels,particularly VAG stuff seem very marginally engineered.An example would be

the tensioner arrangement on 2.0 PD VWs and Audis,We put a VEGE recon 2.0 into an Audi A4.

The tensioner is very large and hangs on a very long stud which screws into a 10mm thread in

the block.When it leaves the block it steps down to an 8mm thread.It was very carefully torqued and tensioned

with the engine out of the car.2000 miles after the engine was refitted the stud snapped across the size

stepdown ,causing no end of trouble and a lost customer.This kind of marginal engineering can work ok

when everything is perfect.Problem is it never is.Mind you VWs and Audis only exist to make GM cars look good.

[Lacquer Peel]

Distributor pump injection or death. 

[wuvvum]

The newest diesel I would own now (apart from if it's so stupidly cheap it doesn't matter when it goes tits up, like the Moog Mondeo) is a late L-series.  Most of the performance and economy of a modern common rail lump, but no DPF, DMF or any of that bollocks to worry about.

 

If I were in the market for a lorry I'd be looking at importing one of those Isuzu Gigamaxes with the 30-litre non-turbo V10.  Probably not LEZbianised or owt but should be fairly bulletproof, and a bit more grunt than a Cummins L10.

[Richard]

.

[gordonbennet]

Those 1 lite Ford turbo petrols are getting a reputation for shitting themselves, and well before 50k in some cases.

VW's 1.4 (or 1.2?) super and turbocharged thingy apparently grenaded, helped by yet another time chain of cheese if what i read is right.

 

Chuffed that this thread has come up, after i went back to Diesel by spending lots of loot on a 2005 3 litre 4 pot Landcruiser at Christmas, confident* as fuck i am now.

 

The main problem is those old Diesel workshops that every county had at one time have vanished, Northampton Diesels was THE place to go 20+ years ago, i know they changed hands when the decent old stick who owned it retired but apparently the new owners have now shut the new site, literally haven't got a clue where to go now if my Denzo chocolate injectors melt.

[overrun]

OM602 Merc 5 banger is what this thread needs.

[320touring]

I reckon for a long term, easy to fix "modern diesel" you need to be looking at the VW 1.9 TDI lump In 90bhp form.

 

Engine codes are ALH/AGR

 

60+ mpg, mechanical/electric pump driven by the timing belt. No high pressure lines.

 

No dpf, easily removable EGR (or can be mapped out easily). Replacement turbo is peanuts (£85 for a core).

 

They have 2 real issues:

Pretty much all moon miles now, so due timing belts and the fun* pump timing that follows.

 

Most have a dual mass flywheel, but single mass replacements are readily available.

 

 

In all honesty, if asked to build the best car I could for £1000,

 

I'd have an Octavia 1.9tdi 90bhp with the following done:

 

Timing belt kit

Full service inc coolant/fuel filter

New .216 Injector nozzles

Replacement Turbo (possibly one from a PD 130)

New bilstein b4 dampers all round

New suspension arms and drop links

New brakes all round

A mk4 Golf GTI sports interior

4x 15" Dunlop sport bluresponse

 

That plus an hr with my laptop would have a 150bhp, 55mpg comfortable car, all pretty much mechanically new.

 

Fuck knows why I ain't done it yet...

[Schaefft]

A good old 2.3 Indenor diesel sierra in misery spec is what you need. Anything newer is just far too complex

 

When I was waiting for my company insignia to be ordered a few years back I had a Golf 1.2 Turbo petrol on hire for a good few months, I was initially sceptical about being given a 1.2 to do 1000’s of miles a week in thinking it'll be rubbish, but it was fuggin ace! It was quite long geared in 5th so completely unstressed at 70(ish) mph (really, you could do licence altering speeds without realising) round town it was nippy and light to drive and it never gave less than 50mpg. I missed it when the insignia arrived, the old dustbin lorry sounding CDTi was terrible to drive in comparison, at anything other than straight motorway cruising it just wasn't as tractable or smooth or compliant.

 

It was a 12 plate and that's about as early as they come so they're not gonna be shite money yet, but these little turbocharged petrol engines from Ford and VW look to be a good shout to me. Diesel's days are numbered for anything other than lorrys and canal boats.

I might have to crush your hopes there. Im fairly sure the VW 1.2 TSI is the prime example of an absolute pos of a modern (downsized) engine. Failed timing chains as far as the eye can see. What is the point in using a timing chain if it is significantly less reliable than a belt driven engine that's 10 years older?! If these are failing so regularly after such a short time, how bad will it be in 10 years? And then there's the added complexity of the turbo and everything that comes with it again. Cars like that Golf are exactly the reason why I worry about the future when it comes to used cars, its junk like this which will mean an early end to many modern cars.

[Cleon-Fonte]

The Fiat TwinAir seems to be fairly bulletproof no matter how lardy the car it's fitted to, even with its complex variable valve timing system, a DMF, turbo and a load of potentially troublesome electronics. so not all modern downsized petrols are inherently unreliable.

[Lacquer Peel]

That plus an hr with my laptop would have a 150bhp, 55mpg comfortable car, all pretty much mechanically new.

 

Fuck knows why I ain't done it yet...

 

Because Octavia. Dull car.

[Captain Furious]

I might have to crush your hopes there. Im fairly sure the VW 1.2 TSI is the prime example of an absolute pos of a modern (downsized) engine. Failed timing chains as far as the eye can see. What is the point in using a timing chain if it is significantly less reliable than a belt driven engine that's 10 years older?! If these are failing so regularly after such a short time, how bad will it be in 10 years? And then there's the added complexity of the turbo and everything that comes with it again. Cars like that Golf are exactly the reason why I worry about the future when it comes to used cars, its junk like this which will mean an early end to many modern cars.

Every engine ever produced in history has had an omg doomsday Achilles heal which meant we shouldn't buy one, Can't Jane a BMW M5 V10 because it will definitely eat its big end bearings, can't have an Audi V8 because it will definitely throw its chain off and it's 7 MONTHS Labour to replace it, Ford and Vauxhall V6's will definitely blow their head gaskets after 4 miles, diesels will shit out their turbos, DMF's, DPF's, injectors, fuel pumps and timing chains all on the same day...I blame a lot of this on the internet, because no-one ever goes online to report that they have one of these cars and it is functioning within normal parameters, but people do go out purposely searching for "Golf TSI timing chain failures" find a few hits and so it is perpetuated.

 

Buying cars is a lottery at best, especially at shiters budgets. If I buy one of these 10 years down the line for £800 and it shits itself the next day I'll just flog it on for spears or reapers and chalk it up to experience. If I get 5 years sterling service out of it then happy days.

 

I do wish they'd fuck timing chains off though, there is that much paranoia about them these days that they're back on the menu as a service item, and if that's the case then, as you say, why not just use a belt. Cheaper, quieter, easier to change, don't need lubrication or fancy hydraulic tensioners, they're just better.

[Hendry]

Ive always, before I had one, wanted a turbo diesel, why? Years ago they were bullet proof, they were torquey, much quicker than a n/a petrol, did loads of MPGs, and were dirt cheap to run.

 

Having owned one, nothing but bother, constantly paranoid its going to break down and leave me stranded, repair bills are costing me far more than the saving in fuel over a n/a petrol, they are torquey but run out of puff quickly, not that cheap to run, and the MPG isnt great, 43.5mpg claimed by trip computer on a 8 year old 2.0 turbo diesel so more like 40mpg, thats rubbish, minimal savings over a 35mpg petrol car, hence considering going back to n/a petrol power, shame it'll be slooooooooooooow.

[gordonbennet]

Timing chains, so long as they are duplex and of the right quality with a decently designed tensioner are fine.

 

It's the lunatic oil change intervals they're all falling over themselves to beat each other with, 20k or so and if what i read is right newer Transits up to some 30k, and not an oil spinner in sight, if they want lorry oil change intervals they'd better start putting some real long life engineering in.

And as for BMW putting the chain at the gearbox end on a north south engine, who the fuck thought that one up but worse still some sod signed it off as a good idea, then we'll help that brilliant bit of engineering to shit itself by recommending the oil stays in till it absolutely bolloxed...all to please the lease and company car fleets.

 

Cambelts though are fine, but it helps of they don't have to go half way round the world driving things that the auxilliary belt(s) should.

 

Toyota's 3.0 4D is a lesson in how to do cambelts, all it drives is the camshaft, nothing else, 1 hour tops to change timing marks from the old school and the new tensioner you fit is of the spring type, once you've pulled the grenade type clip out its all set, don't even need to remove the auxilliary belt to access, i'll have a cambelt designed like this every day and all engine makers should follow examples like this.

 

But then all of this is bollocks, cos no matter how poor they make the bloody things, nor how difficult/expensive they are to maintain well, so long as its stuffed full of electronic toys and has twinkling fairy lights the punters will order them, it only affects the used car buyer and there's the rub cos people insist on buying known ticking time bombs cos it's got the right badge/image, twin clutch gearboxes another time bomb people insist on buying used to go with the cheese engine, i can't get me head round people.

[sierraman]

The older tech diesels like the XUD, Vauxhall 1.7 DI and the older Ford TDDIs are now mostly worn out and present a different problem in themselves.

 

If you can find a Mondeo or Vectra 1.9 diesel for less than £700, with plenty of test on and it runs good, not ok, good, then you might be ok. I bought a 2003 Mondeo TDCI for £400, ran it for 9 months then the injectors started to go and I got £450 for it. I'd have made as much if id have broke it. I'd say maybe pay no more than £6-700, be prepared to throw it away when trouble starts and you might be ok. Incidentally something with 150-160k on the clock could be a better buy than something with 100-120k which is prime time for injector/pump/DMF failure.

 

Saying that I've seen a 607 HDI auto tested till May for £675. Could be ok, the ad says it runs great. This is what I mean, if it blew up next May you'd have had your money's worth.

[320touring]

Because Octavia. Dull car.

LoL! Wish I had a comeback for that:)

[LessThanEqual]

The only "modern" diesels I'd consider to be any good are the Honda 2.2 and VAG 1.9, though even those have their problems. Exhaust manifolds for the early 2.2 and VAG electrics, sooty turbos, and clogged EGRs in the VAG shite. In 20k miles over a year and a half my Ibiza has only FTPd once when the battery killed itself over night. Was a VAG stamped Varta so must've been quite old anyway. Apart from that it likes going into limp mode randomly due to an electrical issue and is quite rusty. I think I'll get a petrol next despite having a 90 mile daily commute. 6th gen Celica would be nice

 

In general though modern diesels are utter shit. PSA and Ford seem to be the worst offenders with dodgy turbos, injectors, etc.

[stripped fred]

I prefer diesels and apart from limp mode not had any problems on the diesel cars I've had. I prefer the torque to a petrol. As mentioned earlier if you've only spent about £800 then maintain it but treat it as disposable.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Cars like that Golf are exactly the reason why I worry about the future when it comes to used cars, its junk like this which will mean an early end to many modern cars.

 

 

That's why buying something really nice condition/old/decent mileage and looking after it is the way forward. Various romantics go on about bAse Sierras* or rescuing a Renault 30 from a hedge in Uzbekistan but the cars worth getting now before they're all gone; BMW E36, Cavalier, Vectra B, GM Saab 900, Pug 406, Merc C Class (W20thefirstone) - maintain and waxoyl the seven shades of shit out of it. In nice condition, these cars will always be very acceptable forms of transport.

 

In essence it's the motoring equivalent of building a nuclear bomb shelter because in 2025 when there are none of these cars left other that expensive/scrap, it's no good whining when the offside front comfort access probability ECU isn't communicating to the central body control plausibility control unit via can bus and the cunt won't start unless you can find a working ECU (part no 0349583248697-9) that will need to be coded in to allow the diesel assist modular control unit to communicate via NASA with the fucking key fob.

[Captain Furious]

Aren't we just all turning into our Dads though?  I remember him getting his Mk2 Granada in about 1988 and not wanting a Ghia because it had too many things (rear electric windows) to go wrong - he did get a Ghia in the end and the rear electric windows functioned normally throughout his ownership. 

 

At least you'll still just about be able to buy one that isn't stuffed with batteries and electric motors which allow it to do 5mpg less than the equivalent diesel just by plugging it into the mains for 18 hours a day.

[Schaefft]

Every engine ever produced in history has had an omg doomsday Achilles heal which meant we shouldn't buy one, Can't Jane a BMW M5 V10 because it will definitely eat its big end bearings, can't have an Audi V8 because it will definitely throw its chain off and it's 7 MONTHS Labour to replace it, Ford and Vauxhall V6's will definitely blow their head gaskets after 4 miles, diesels will shit out their turbos, DMF's, DPF's, injectors, fuel pumps and timing chains all on the same day...I blame a lot of this on the internet, because no-one ever goes online to report that they have one of these cars and it is functioning within normal parameters, but people do go out purposely searching for "Golf TSI timing chain failures" find a few hits and so it is perpetuated.

 

Buying cars is a lottery at best, especially at shiters budgets. If I buy one of these 10 years down the line for £800 and it shits itself the next day I'll just flog it on for spears or reapers and chalk it up to experience. If I get 5 years sterling service out of it then happy days.

 

I do wish they'd fuck timing chains off though, there is that much paranoia about them these days that they're back on the menu as a service item, and if that's the case then, as you say, why not just use a belt. Cheaper, quieter, easier to change, don't need lubrication or fancy hydraulic tensioners, they're just better.

I realize that its mainly the negative stories that you are hearing about on the internet. That doesn't mean that there are fundamental problems with certain engines though. There is a reason why you read about TSI timing chain failures so often (and why VW accepted covering part of the costs when replacing them). Theres also a reason why BMWs M50/M52 are seen as being extremely solid engines. Both of these general opinions are shaped by experiences of many many people over time. Saying that these issues are perfectly normal and acceptable and that everyone is just grumpy definitely won't help improve anything.

 

And the point is not "I only paid a few quid. so I dont care if it blows up eventually". The point is that manufacturers are consciously constructing cars that are less and less usable for the initial investment a person has made on them, with the side effect that it ruins all the measurements to improve their environmental impact that made them less viable in the first place.

[SiC]

Aren't we just all turning into our Dads though?  I remember him getting his Mk2 Granada in about 1988 and not wanting a Ghia because it had too many things (rear electric windows) to go wrong - he did get a Ghia in the end and the rear electric windows functioned normally throughout his ownership. 

 

At least you'll still just about be able to buy one that isn't stuffed with batteries and electric motors which allow it to do 5mpg less than the equivalent diesel just by plugging it into the mains for 18 hours a day.

However electric drivetrains are ridiculously simple mechanical part wise. Battery -> motor controller -> motors -> gearbox (often single speed nowadays) -> diff -> driveshafts -> hubs+wheels.

 

The motors consist of pressed metal for the stators and a lots of wrapped wire around that. Battery consists of many little laptop cells that have a battery management system to make sure each cell stays between 3.2v and 4.2v when used and charged. Motor controller is the complex bit, but thats mostly software - electronically its high power driver transistors (IGBT) and some monitoring circuitry. New to automotive, but well proven fundamentals from industrial control electronics.

 

The motor controllers are very robust and if they do fail, will be a case of sending it off to be refurbished. Batteries can fail, but the individual cells can be replaced - many DIY this already on Prius's. Again I imagine there will be plenty of companies specialising in this. Also these are currently very easy to remove on a lot of cars. For example, the battery pack of the Tesla is mounted on the bottom and is reportedly able to be removed in 90s on a lift.

 

Who I worry most for is mechanics. Electric cars are going to be so much more reliable and require so much less maintenance, there will be far less need for them. Maintenance on electric cars in the future will be like comparing modern cars (that don't need any maintenance for 10-25k miles) to cars from the 40s/50s where you needed to regrease things every 500-3k miles.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I realize that its mainly the negative stories that you are hearing about on the internet. That doesn't mean that there are fundamental problems with certain engines though. There is a reason why you read about TSI timing chain failures so often (and why VW accepted covering part of the costs when replacing them). Theres also a reason why BMWs M50/M52 are seen as being extremely solid engines. Both of these general opinions are shaped by experiences of many many people over time. Saying that these issues are perfectly normal and acceptable and that everyone is just grumpy definitely won't help improve anything.

 

And the point is not "I only paid a few quid. so I dont care if it blows up eventually". The point is that manufacturers are consciously constructing cars that are less and less usable for the initial investment a person has made on them, with the side effect that it ruins all the measurements to improve their environmental impact that made them less viable in the first place.

 

 

Amen to that.

[Captain Furious]

^{I wasn't really referring to EV's though, which no doubt serve a purpose and have all of the benefits you list above, I mean these 'plug-in hybrids' that seem to be infesting the normal manufacturers line-ups.  A friend of mine has a 330e on loan at the moment, I dunno if you know the one, its basically a 320i petrol with an electric motor to boost performance and economy which you have to plug in and charge for 3 hours a day.  Headline figures are impressive, theoretical 148mpg, 0-60 in 6.1, super low emissions so cheap BIK rates will no doubt make it popular amongst company car drivers (and this, so far as I can see, is its main selling point) - So far he's managed 33mpg, so even assuming we get the electric for free it is more complex, less economical and less convenient than a 330d.}

 

^{10 years time when its 5th hand and the batteries are all shagged it will just be a much heavier 320i.}

 

 

[Bren]

^{I wasn't really referring to EV's though, which no doubt serve a purpose and have all of the benefits you list above, I mean these 'plug-in hybrids' that seem to be infesting the normal manufacturers line-ups.  A friend of mine has a 330e on loan at the moment, I dunno if you know the one, its basically a 320i petrol with an electric motor to boost performance and economy which you have to plug in and charge for 3 hours a day.  Headline figures are impressive, theoretical 148mpg, 0-60 in 6.1, super low emissions so cheap BIK rates will no doubt make it popular amongst company car drivers (and this, so far as I can see, is its main selling point) - So far he's managed 33mpg, so even assuming we get the electric for free it is more complex, less economical and less convenient than a 330d.}

 

^{10 years time when its 5th hand and the batteries are all shagged it will just be a much heavier 320i.}

 

 

At least it will be worth more going over the bridge.

[sierraman]

My dad told me to avoid Mondeos when I passed my test - wanted one, cause of the potentially costly fuel injection, potential cost of replacing a clutch or if the Cat went it would cost a bomb.

 

Had loads of them been fine...

[SiC]

I think part of the problem Bren has had with his, is that its has never been known for being a reliable lump. Some installations were far worse than others - e.g. Saabs with it was disastrous.

Then on top, as it is a pretty rare engine, parts are harder to get and far less people understand or want to touch them.

 

If it was a standard family car/taxi cab rank/etc engine like the ford 2.0tdci/GM+fiat 1.9 ctdi/VAG 2.0TDI/etc then it would be very well understood by the trade and plenty of parts available with them.

[tooSavvy]

Reliability?

 

ToMM©, I can't break it

 

 

TS

[Lacquer Peel]

Since the Vectra uses an Isuzu engine, could you stick an Isuzu industrial engine in its place, maybe secondhand removed from a wood chipper? Better still a 1.7D out of a Combo.

[cpjitservices]

They are fine IMO.ST then Ghia X, for me.

Do not touch the mk3 Mondy 2.0 tdci - horrible engines with low tolerances - mine needs injectors doing badly, the MPG I'm getting also is rubbish - perhaps due to the injectors im not sure. 65-70 on motorway with cruise on and I averaged 38.5 MPG. Gearbox has also decided it no longer likes 4th gear, no longer engages and when it does crunches and jumps out. 

 

They are a money pit theses engines and I reckon this one is heading for the bridge.

 

Would I have another mk3 Mondy ? Yes in a heartbeat, pref with the 1.8 Petrol engine.

 

One of the best diesels I've had the pleasure to own is the PSA 2.0 HDI. My old Picasso was at 208k, ran sweet as a nut and on a long run could easily average 50MPG+. Good round town too, and just generally reliable. Parts were cheap - think the cam belt cost me £120 to replace. I am slowly failing out with diesels though, Petrol that bit simpler and usually a bit cheaper if and when it decided it no longer wants to work.

[sierraman]

Mk4 diesel is much better in reliability though.