Project 1975 Ford Granada Coupe - Lots & lots of tinkering

[danthecapriman]

Brilliant work Rich. It's going to look amazing when done.

Must say though, that Escort looks utterly past it! Fair play to whoever does that one!

 

Your labour price is good. The place that shit on me for my Capri resto were charging £48 an hour! I should have taken much more notice of what it was costing me and what was actually being done. Mind, I should've taken the car to you to do really!

 

Do you fancy a friendly bet over which one will hit the road first!? Granny V's Capri...

I'm not terribly confident tbh!

[TripleRich]

The guy with the escort is certainly brave.  He was worried it wouldn't come out of the garage without falling apart.  Hes had it since new and it is a genuine mexico so will have significant value when its done.  I reckon he'll spend about what its worth or perhaps a touch more to get it restored.  Just the replacement panels have cost thousands.  Genuine mexico panelwork is very hard to find and you pay a premium for it.

 

I had wondered out of the two of us who would be finished first!  I'd say you're winning at the moment as I've yet to touch any of the running gear on the Granada.  All depends on who gets painted first.

[danthecapriman]

It's not so bad for me though as I've got one guy working on the bodywork while I'm doing mechanical stuff so I've got a bit of an edge! I wish I could do the body myself like you have though. I think my weldings up to it but I lack space and facilities. It's not something I think I'd have a chance at doing at home on the drive and my single garage!

 

I'd love to see the Escort both when the strip down is done and when finished! It looks like it's almost snapped in half in that pic you posted! If the doors won't close it's definitely beginning to flex though!

[mat_the_cat]

We don't price for the job as experience has taught us that the car is always twice as bad as it looks.

If I was a customer I don't think I'd want a fixed 'job' price either, as when the hidden rot is found, a restorer working to a quote isn't exactly going to have an incentive to do the best job. I'd much rather they required in such a situation, but I have heard of restorers using a fixed price as a selling point!

[Bfg]

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Not wishing to take this G8 thread off track, but in response to the slight deviation already in conversation..

 

Because I'm on a very tight budget (retired / minimal & finite savings) - I went for a fixed price for replacement of floors, sills and lower bulkhead panel, plus repairs to the chassis top skin and inner rear wings with their seat belt anchorages, of my Citroen Ami. The car was stripped out, scraped of old underseal and jet washed, before being placed on trestles - so a good look all around was possible. We had already discussed that I wanted spot welding as original, or where that was impossible because of reach - then puddle welds.  He set the price which included replacement panels, but not consumable like undercoat, sealant etc.  The restorer claimed* to have been doing A-series Citroens for 30 years.. and there are really not a lot of surprises when you stick to one type of a specific make.   

 

However, before he'd even started cutting or welding - he pushed to put the price up.  I wouldn't budge, and perhaps that;'s why it was almost two months before he started. Then he wanted to buy in extra repair panels. As far as I was concerned we had agreed a price which included replacement panels.  With the delays and griping the atmosphere became fragile.  I didn't get spot welds. I only got the bottom 1/4 of the bulkhead, with other parts patched. The panels were not to the same design of ribs as the originals, and the finish was poor.  I've had to correct certain dimensional body-panel alignment errors (very time consuming) and have added extra welds. I still have others to do ..which have been left pop riveted.!  Primer and rubberised under-seal over ugly smears of pu sealer cover what was (..uncleaned) under there. 

 

Had he been in this country I would have sued.  I'm not even considering my options as I quell my anger & frustration, but the time will come.  So, my advice to anyone wanting this sort of work is to do it yourself ..as most keen amateurs will care enough and take the time to do the details, like paint protection as work progresses, very much more than most so called restorers whose detail work is not seen. (NB. my previous non-modern was a Jag. which came with a paper trail from a highly prestigous specialist - whose wiring was crap & who hadn't even bothered to replace the engine's core plugs, clean out the sump, and do various other jobs while they worked on the engine).   

 

And if you can't do the job yourself - then use someone good (reputation with actual owners you can talk to) who is very local to you - so you can visit  EVERY week to inspect their work.. and equally where/how they have stored the all bits taken off.!  Take a torch, a dentist mirror and a camera probe to see inside their structural work.  If there are no holes into the voids then how will you/they apply injected protection ?  

 

Beware the trap of becoming blasé if at first the quality is great.. Most of us start off with great enthusiasm but then life gets in the way and things begin to slip.  Professionals are no different but they have a lot of financial pressures too, and once you're impressed and confidence is won ..and the visits are not so scrutinising, then a little short cut here or there will never be noticed. (..think rust traps, or getting out the torque wrench).  Not all shops I'm sure ..but we are not talking about resto-shops here we're talking human nature and an employee having a bad day.

 

YOU will need to Project Manage the restoration, which means anticipating what needs buying in advance, what needs specialist services, and of course sourcing parts which are as common as unicorn droppings.  Aside from panels and parts required, pay only for the work week by week, so as to avoid getting 'forgetful' about the mounting costs. And so., if they stop work, work slowly &/or go out of business - it is not with much of your money in their pocket. 

 

Conversely be super reliable with your payments & consistent with your visiting.  Then they can rely on you and they know that you will be there at a certain time ..which is a weekly deadline incentive.

 

One aspect of project management is the contingency for you to remove the car at any point in time if you are not happy with the quality or rate of progress.  Another aspect is in having a professional written agreement drawn up - specifying how things (by mutual agreement) are to be done and how long things are 'anticipated' to take.   There may be a penalty clause if no work is being done after a certain umber of days (agreed holidays and genuine excuses excluded).  You should be understanding of unforeseen delays, but otherwise be prepared to stand your ground. They might not like it, but they should respect you. 

 

The contract should include a clause regarding your ownership of the vehicle in the event of business collapse.      

 

If this all sounds too much then you are either prepared to be, and can afford to be ripped off ..or you are not ready to take responsibility for this business contract.. for that is what it is.  It is a financial agreement between yourself and the restorer / the business for a certain quality of workmanship & expertise, materials & parts, within the agreed time scale ..in exchange for your timely and generous payments (including tax). 

 

Of course you may want to negotiate a bit (or a lot..) of black economy pricing. Let's face it we all want a great deal and non of us like paying more taxes, but tbh what the bottom line percentage of the overall cost of the car you hope to save ? ..And, is that saving worth undermining the ground you stand on ?     NB. if that type of car is typically for sale after restoration for £14,000 - £24,000 ..then that's likely to be because it will cost that much to restore it.  Kid yourself that you can buy, restore to a high standard, and nicely paint such a car for £4,000 and you'll learn the hard way and it'll take five years of (off ?) your life). 

 

If the restoration shop is professional they will not mind at all your professional approach, and may even welcome your keen interest. They will watch you though ..to ensure that you keep your side of the bargain, and are a good, perhaps even helpful (sourcing parts & information resources) and fun customer.  If they do a great job then you will become a great asset to them. 

 

But,  you are Not their friend ..until after the job is done to your satisfaction and the bill is paid to theirs.

 

With my car.. I fucked up, because I made the mistake of liking the guy ..and with rose tinted glasses wanted the car.  I trusted he would do a good job.  18 months later I grit my teeth, as I fix something I paid for but was not done, or not done well..   imo that trust was betrayed and the car was dangerous.  But the real bottom line is : I was not ready to take responsibility. I left it to him.

 

Now, instead of happy anticipation while I finish assembling the car - it has become a heavy trudge and it's still not finished seven months and thousands of hours later.

 

Most certainly.. next time I will do the job myself. (NB., I have built a number of cars and restored others, but only chassis cars). I'm confident that I would have done a neater job, retained more originality, with better rust protection, and that overall it would have been quicker and much cheaper in the long term to do the job properly just once.  I would have been more selective in what panels I replaced, insomuch as the 3/4 of the floors were in good shape, as were the sills.  Having said that - my lightweight Ami was a doddle to repair (it having a chassis) compared to this would-be gorgeous coupe ..which at this time in life I probably wouldn't take on. 

 

Respect for this man & his craftsmanship     

[dollywobbler]

Alternatively, the chap, who does seem to have a pretty decent reputation (though I don't know him personally), realised he'd f*cked himself with the quote and so wanted to raise it. Fixed price restoration is a bloody dangerous game to play. If the costs spiral and the customer won't pay, then it's his livelihood that's down the pan. If the price can't budge but more parts/labour is needed, the restorer has two choices. Cut the work output somehow or go out of business. I'm not sure suing someone like that would really help.

[TripleRich]

Sorry to hear of your experience Bfg.  A fixed priced job will always hurt the customer.  If the restorer takes the hit they will go out of business.  Just like the building trade there are plenty of bad restorers out there and as you've pointed out you need to do your homework before picking one.  However we are not all out there to rob you blind and bodge your car.  

 

As seen in the pictures on this thread we exist because it’s very difficult to do a thorough restoration on your driveway.  You need a lot of very noisy and expensive equipment and it takes years to master using it.  

 

I still have years of learning ahead before I would consider myself a professional restorer. 

[They_all_do_that_sir]

Bloody awesome work there. You'll have it on the road in no time.

 

Would love to see more of the escort as the progresses, it looks fucked!

 

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[dollywobbler]

 

Sorry to hear of your experience Bfg. A fixed priced job will always hurt the customer. If the restorer takes the hit they will go out of business. Just like the building trade there are plenty of bad restorers out there and as you've pointed out you need to do your homework before picking one.

However we are not all out there to rob you blind and bodge your car.

As seen in the pictures on this thread we exist because it’s very difficult to do a thorough restoration on your driveway. You need a lot of very noisy and expensive equipment and it takes years to master using it.

 

I still have years of learning ahead before I would consider myself a professional restorer.

That's a friendlier way of putting what I was trying to say. I've had to learn by getting annoyed that restoration always costs more than you expect. It just does.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

This thread continues to impress. I can't get over how you continue to find grot hidden deep down in so many places in what initially appeared to be a tidy looking shell.

As for your attention to detail, and the level of restoration, it kind of hits home that the majority of classic cars on our roads won't have been repaired to anything like this quality. Despite the fact you're chocka with work, I just can't see that most classic car owners would have the money to fund repair work to this this level, nor be able to justify the the expenditure?

[tooSavvy]

 I just can't see that most classic car owners would have the money to fund repair work to this this level, nor be able to justify the the expenditure?

 

I think the answer is in the question, here...

 

I 'like' Grannies. So when I see one I think "noice..don't see many about as clean as that!" >> Owner happens to put a show note on it

 

RECENTLY RESTORED @ £25k

 

... I still think "noice..don't see many about as clean as that!"    * OUCH!!

 

TS

[Junkman]

Well, at the going rate, we would be about 20k into this Granny by now.

[Dick Dastardly]

Absolutely superb work on a deserved classic Triplerich. I've read with interest the debate that's erupted on the thread about restoration costs & have seen it from both sides.

If you're going to do it then do it properly & although I agree that if you have the skill & space then doing the work yourself ensures it is done to your standard I also know that most people know they don't have either & very wisely try to find a Company that does.

It's a minefield with so many so called professional restorers out there & so easy to entrust your pride & joy to someone who doesn't appreciate it as you do.

I really look forward to seeing the Coupe progress & hit the road in the future.

[TripleRich]

Had some time off during the week so managed two full days on the car.  The plan was to replace the inner and outer wheel arch if time allowed...

First job was to offer up the repair panels and draw around them so I can remove as much old metal as possible.  The arch and back corner of the wing always suffer on this side.

The reason for this is all the expanding foam that ford put in between the inner & outer wing.  They did it because stuff in the boot can fall down there and it also acts as sound insulation.  Obviously the side effect is that water and condensation can't get out making the perfect rust trap.  The same is true on MK2 & 3 Capris with the worst being Mk2 Granadas that have the foam in various other places including the wheelarches.

As you can see the inner structure is quite rotten and needs sorting out.  I set about the inner wheel arch first using the same methods I did for the other side.

Next I replaced the bottom rear section of the arch which was very rotten right up to the seam with the next panel.  I made up a cardboard template and used various tools to bring the metal into the correct shape.  I then welded it all in using a hammer for slight adjustment as I worked my way along the weld.

The next day I moved up to the inner closer panel for the rear wing.  I have repair panels for both the inner and outer.  However the outer panel does not cover far enough to allow complete removal of the inner panel.  The inner panel where it meets the boot floor is actually very good so I removed as much as I could and then spliced the repair panel in.

Next I turned my attention to the outer wheel arch.  This side is more difficult due to the fuel filler so lots of adjustment and small cuts were made to get the panel to fit without removing too much metal.

 

 

It takes a very long time to fully weld the panel on.  Any more than 3 strikes from the welder will start to warp the wing.  I held a blow gun hooked up to the compressor allowing me to cool the metal each time I did 3 welds.  Repeating this process eventually gets you a nice weld with very little warping from the metal.  Then the grinding process begins which also takes a long time.

With the arch now finished things are starting to look quite a bit better on this side.  Next job is to fit the outer wing repair panel which will complete the bulk of the exterior work on this side of the car.

[Guest Hooli]

I'm amazed this quality of work is only £39 an hour, I'd not be surprised to see a '1' in front of that figure.

[JeeExEll]

The guy with the escort is certainly brave. He was worried it wouldn't come out of the garage without falling apart. Hes had it since new and it is a genuine mexico so will have significant value when its done. I reckon he'll spend about what its worth or perhaps a touch more to get it restored. Just the replacement panels have cost thousands. Genuine mexico panelwork is very hard to find and you pay a premium for it.

 

 

I checked out the DVLA record of that red Mex, WWP 987M, tax due April 1986. It is indeed a genuine Mex according to another site.

 

When I first typed in the reg I mistakenly typed WWM 987M and it came out as a blue Mk1 Escort 1100. Alarm bells ringing for a minute. The road tax on the blue Mk1 Escort 1100 was due May 1986. Just one month later than the Mex.

 

Absolutely stunning work on the Granada BTW.

[They_all_do_that_sir]

It's mega bucks to do restoration properly.

But my take on it is £25k to have a car sorted properly, to better than new condition isn't terrible when you consider a brand new golf could end up north of £30k with a few options, and it'll still be a new golf.

 

You on the other hand will end up with a pretty much brand new Granada coupe, and adjusted for inflation the restoration cost is probably comparable to buying it new?

 

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[dollywobbler]

Amazing as ever. I have heard that using a block of copper behind the panel can reduce distortion, but no idea how practical that actually is. 

 

Do you have a plan to replace the foam with something else or just live with the possibility of losing small things?

[TripleRich]

That particular hole does have a fibreboard bit of trim to cover it over so I shouldn't loose anything in the boot.  I'll leave it just as a void full of cavity wax.  It might be a bit louder inside but i'm happy to live with that.

 

 

A bit of copper does work but the difficulty is holding it in the right place whilst welding.  You can buy heat pastes that you brush onto the neighboring metal but I've not tried that yet.

 

[TripleRich]

On 7/24/2017 at 9:25 AM, They_all_do_that_sir said:

It's mega bucks to do restoration properly.

But my take on it is £25k to have a car sorted properly, to better than new condition isn't terrible when you consider a brand new golf could end up north of £30k with a few options, and it'll still be a new golf.

 

You on the other hand will end up with a pretty much brand new Granada coupe, and adjusted for inflation the restoration cost is probably comparable to buying it new?

 

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New in 74 the Ghia Coupe was expensive at £3877.  That would be £37079 in todays money! 

 

 

 

[JeeExEll]

^^ A new V12 E-type coupe was only a few hundred pounds more in 1974. A Cortina 2000E was something like £1800 new at the time. I have a 1974 issue of Motor somewhere with new car list prices. I will scan it if I find it as it's interesting. (Unless someone else has similar they could scan?).

 

Probably best in it's own thread though.

 

^^ Rare to see a Ghia coupe on the sports steelies, most had either the full chrome style covers or the (ronal?) 14 inch spoked alloys (similar style as the Mk2 Capri S / Ghia alloys for a short period around 75 - mid76).

These "Sweeney" style sports steel wheels look ace IMO when properly painted.

 

Some UK-spec Ghia coupes were built with the 2.0 Pinto, mostly automatic.

[danthecapriman]

^^ A new V12 E-type coupe was only a few hundred pounds more in 1974. A Cortina 2000E was £1800 new at the time. I have a 1974 issue of Motor somewhere with new car list prices. I will scan it if I find it as it's interesting. (Unless someone else has similar they could scan?).

Probably best in it's own thread though.

^^ Rare to see a Ghia coupe on the sports steelies, most had either the full chrome style covers or the (ronal?) 14 inch spoked alloys (similar style as the Mk2 Capri S / Ghia alloys for a short period around 75 - mid76).

These "Sweeney" style sports steel wheels look ace IMO when properly painted.

Some UK-spec Ghia coupes were built with the 2.0 Pinto, mostly automatic.

I'd be interested too. Love to know what my Capri cost it's first owner in 74.

[TripleRich]

Another day completed on the car.  I've turned my attention to the inner and outer rear valence as its easier to access while one of the quarter panels is in bits.  I've recently finished replacing the inner and outer valence on a mk2 Granada so it made sense to do mine while the process was fresh in my head.

Both the inner and outer needed to be replaced.  The outer has a big hole in which is being covered by a well selected sticker and the inner is rotting all along the bottom where it meets the boot floor.  I hoped that the surrounding panels had survived.  It would be nice if at least something on the car was in good condition.

First thing to do is cut off as much outer valence as possible to gain access to the inner.

Inside things are looking much better than I thought.  The boot floor is good and so is most of the other panels that make up the rear of the car.  There a small panel attached to the spare wheel well which needs attention but everything else is looking very good.  The inner valence is quite bad but I intend to replace it so no worries there.

I then cut off as much of the inner valence as possible and set to drilling out all the spot welds so I can remove the seams of the old panels.  The inner valence is quite difficult to remove without causing damage as it has various lips that wrap around nasty little corners and hard to reach areas.  Once complete I got the wire wheel out and cleaned up various areas checking for any additional rust and pitting that may need attention.

The new inner is then fitted.  Many of the seams are not accessible with the spot welder so I punched holes in the edges and puddled welded the panel in place.  This is a genuine Ford panel and it fits perfectly with no alteration required.

The rear valence is then trial fitted and checked.  I had done this previously before welding the inner but its always good to check again after welding.

I then finished up for the day by painting a few areas with POR and rolling the car the correct way up.  The body roller really helps with this sort of job.  The mk2 I did a week ago was still on its wheels and it took me quite a bit longer and was very uncomfortable.

Should be able to get the outer welded on next weekend and possibly get the rear quarter back together.

[Uncle Jimmy]

Reading this thread puts what I'm up against with my Saab into perspective!

[Pete-M]

Good work, fella. They're charming old things when they're on form.

[Bfg]

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Interesting to think how this car's restoration would have been a pig to do without its roasting spit and really good lighting.  Welding upside down is no fun at all, nor is struggling in dim light.  

 

I restored a Triumph TR4 years ago by rolling the body, but my time was my own, the building was spacious and its floor was timber. I also had the full-time use of a two poster lift.   Rolling the body off is likewise commonly done with A-series Citroen and other cars where the wings are bolt on. 

 

But only in retrospect do I recall that the shop I used to do my Citroen, only had trestles and a fork lift truck. Not even a two or four post lift.  Only later did I learn that he had no body jig either.  One of my local 2cv specialists likewise has no lift, also rolls the body off, but at least does have a body jig to put the bulkhead, sills and floors in. And then he farms the paintwork out.

 

Point I'd make after numerous hours of aerobics reaching in and out, over, around, through, and down under my own car is - that this all takes time and most certainly compromises the job.   It's OK for an amateur to clamber about, to struggle, and to use a trolley jack or two with blocks of wood.. ie, to take twice as long to do a job ..because you are doing it once and your labour rate is nil (although the time in your premises might be costed).  

 

However,  when any of you approach a restoration or repair company - might I suggest you discretely check to see what equipment & lights they have to do the job not only properly but also quickly, and at a sensible working height.  And that it will be available for as long as your car needs it.    Their time is your money !

 

I learnt a whole lot from having my own car professionally restored.  Unbeknown to me ..my car was a fill-in job to that company, so equipment was available as and when it happened to be free. But I also learnt (much later on) about the body shell ending up 1/4" further forward on one side of the car than the other (making bonnet gaps rather odd), about the body shell being twisted when the bulkhead and sills were welded up, about the replacement panels not being spot welded in, and about the door posts being fitted in the wrong place. Similarly about mastic hiding jobs not quite done, about over-spray that is sod to clean off, about how the roof can get dented when the body is rolled, about scrapes of the paint when the chassis and body were each turned back over, about welding / grinding splatter on the car's windows, and about sealing mastic not being finished underneath. 

 

I'm not saying this as a gripe about the guy who did my car,  but rather because I didn't even think to check these things out before I put my car in his hands.  And that was a fundamental mistake on my part.  But we can learn from each other.  Think how long it takes you or I to do a job at home and why it's a hassle,  and then have a look around your professional's garage - does he have the tools and equipment, the space, and the time, and even the store of new parts & consumables at hand (like a stock of the right size nuts & bolts) - or will you be paying for his time to do things the hard / time consuming / inefficient way ?

 

Look around into the background of the Triplerich's photos.  Airy, light workshop, where nothing can be hidden from other craftsmen or the client.  There are handy sized solid workbenches, and small parts bins at hand. Good tools and equipment, and handling equipment for each car.  Where's the clutter of used stuff* piled up around the shop ?  The cars are stripped out including all the glass and stored out of harm's way elsewhere. That is a good working environment, which inevitably means it's managed, standards are watched and workers are accountable.   

 

Only thing noticeable by their absence are welding / grinding curtains, to prevent neighbouring cars from getting splattered.

 

Nice job Sir

[Mally]

And they let you do your own car with their gear, good place to work.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

The guy with the escort is certainly brave.  He was worried it wouldn't come out of the garage without falling apart.  Hes had it since new and it is a genuine mexico so will have significant value when its done.  I reckon he'll spend about what its worth or perhaps a touch more to get it restored.  Just the replacement panels have cost thousands.  Genuine mexico panelwork is very hard to find and you pay a premium for it.

 

I had wondered out of the two of us who would be finished first!  I'd say you're winning at the moment as I've yet to touch any of the running gear on the Granada.  All depends on who gets painted first.

 

 

 

It's a 40-50k car once completed to a high standard though. Could you post up pics of progress now and then? 

[TripleRich]

Work on the Mexico will be starting soon when space is available in the fabrication shop.  At present its been stripped out and the remains of the shell braced to prevent further damage happening whilst its in storage.  Enough panels have arrived to make a start so I'll post a pic every now and then.

This is the worst car we've taken on.  It'll be a big challenge to get this thing straight and solid again.  

 

 

[mk2_craig]

If this whole classic car bubble bursts as I fully expect it will soon, that Escort will actually be worth less when finished than the cost of the restoration.