Radically altered vehicles.

[Jim Bell]

I've been reading the guidelines on RAVs and I was wondering how the points system works.

 

The blurb says that the vehicle must be judged on the points scale below and score more than 8 Points to retain I.D.

 

Chassis/monocoque/bodyshell: 5 pts

Suspension front and back: 2 pts

Axles (both) 2pts

Transmission: 2pts

Steering assembly: 2 pts

Engine original: 1 pt.

 

Car should get a Q if it scores less than 8pts in total.

 

 

 

Its not clear from what I can find, if alterations or replacements still count as "original".

 

If an engine is bored out and bigger pistons installed, do you "lose" 1pt?

 

If the suspension or steering assembly is replaced with period correct like for like, do you keep the 4pts or lose the 4pts?

 

Surely you wouldnt be expected to have the actual original suspension on an old crate.

 

Anyone have any experience or good knowledge in this area?

[Matt]

An official definition of what 'original' means when it comes to this would be very handy. I think it must mean to factory specifications because if you are totally restoring a 70+ year old car for example how on earth can you know if the suspension components are the originals in the normal sense?

[Tamworthbay]

This is one of those wonderfully grey definitions that is so open to interpretation that it is stupid. What I do know is that 5points from the chassis must make up part of the eight points, so you can't just strip all the bits and put them in a space frame, but some at the DVLA will still tell you that you can! I do know of cars that have been pulled recently and whilst the IVA harbingers of doom that populate some forums are just out to scare people, if the wrong person gets an interest in a car it can be fatal. A guy in a local mini club to me got a load of shit for having a turbo box let into the bulkhead as the monocoque was seen as having been modified.

[Jim Bell]

That was my thought exactly. It's a bit ambiguous. Surely a lot of parts are not not still available in original specifications.

Does pollybushing lose you points?

[scaryoldcortina]

It's an utter minefield with a map drawn in crayon by a five year old.

 

First, replacement parts are fine as wear-and-tear but a complete rebuild all at once costs you points. I rebuilt a capri once using all the running gear from one car and the shell from another, if I'd told DVLA they would have Q plated it even though there was no way of telling apart from the change of engine number. Also, if I was running one car and stripping the other for parts as they failed along the way it would be fine.

 

It seems simple enough until you consider that "axles" and "suspension" are often the same item, or that the original engine was long gone when the car got a gold seal replacement under warranty 40 years ago, or any of a million other problems. The Chassis or Monocoque must be unaltered as well, but an entire replacement shell or chassis (new) is acceptable! Soon as you inform the DVLA someone with no knowledge of car modification will try to add up some arbitary points from a form you filled in. Ask landrover bods about how much pain the point system and a snotty VOSA bod cause them.

 

The best rule of thumb go by is that if the car still looks like the description on the logbook (eg "Ford Cortina Saloon") then don't tell them anything.

[Jim Bell]

This is one of those wonderfully grey definitions that is so open to interpretation that it is stupid. What I do know is that 5points from the chassis must make up part of the eight points, so you can't just strip all the bits and put them in a space frame, but some at the DVLA will still tell you that you can! I do know of cars that have been pulled recently and whilst the IVA harbingers of doom that populate some forums are just put to scare people, if the wrong person gets an interest in a car it can be fatal. A guy in a local mini club to me got a load of shit for having a turbo box let into the bulkhead as the monocoque was seen as having been modified.

So does a straight reshell lose you the 5 points? If it's like for like or kind of near enough?

[Jim Bell]

Sorry soc. You answered my question as I was typing.

[andy18s]

In theory no 'cos the "new" shell will already have a vin/v5,unless you are going for something that is Heritage sourced

[scaryoldcortina]

one other thing, the whole system was devised in the mid 80s as a way of determining which kitcars would get a Q and which could keep the donor reg but revise the description on the V5, it was never intended to be used for modified but already registered cars.

[Eddie Honda]

So does a straight reshell lose you the 5 points? If it's like for like or kind of near enough?

Not if it's a brand new one to original spec with a receipt. Bit like those Lotus "subframes".

[scaryoldcortina]

In theory no 'cos the "new" shell will already have a vin/v5,unless you are going for something that is Heritage sourced

that's what I meant by "new" - brand new supplied by manufacturer or agent and with a receipt. Anything else is a used shell.

[Tamworthbay]

What seems to have changed recently is that some people are being pulled after the DVLA were tipped off by mot testers. Is this a policy passed down to them? Or are there a few doing it to cover their backs in case of issues? I don't know which.

[scaryoldcortina]

Not if it's a brand new one to original spec with a receipt. Bit like those Lotus "subframes".

Actually, that's a good grey area - remember the zetec elan+2 from Spyder engineering? New chassis subframes, engine, box, axles, steering, loom, brakes, suspension..... the only bits they keep from the lotus are the shell and the logbook.

[cort1977]

The best rule of thumb go by is that if the car still looks like the description on the logbook (eg "Ford Cortina Saloon") then don't tell them anything.

 

This seems like excellent advice.   Like many things involving government bureaucracy I think you should take a 'where's the victim?' approach.   If no one can tell if your 'axle' is original or not then what's the problem?   What they don't know won't hurt them.  

[garbaldy]

Well thats the mk2 scrote doomed as all that's left of the original is the shell.

Maybe selling before someone grasses is best course of action.

[Jim Bell]

I was thinking of the Mini that CAR SOS did.

 

It was a reshell anyway from a mk1 Cooper to a later shell. They altered the shell to take the early rear clusters. The engine was bored out and had bigger pistons. The box was replaced with a straight cut and the suspension was all new.

 

I suppose it shouldn't really retain its original I.D. but as said earlier, it still looks like a mk1 Mini so who gives a fuck?

 

Same for the eccy.

 

Ignore and be a winner.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

God job this doesn't apply to Land Rovers...........

 

 

Not only, not on Q's ,but free tax as well of course.

 

Amazing how many 1950's and 60's Series came with Tdi or V8 engines , coil springs, 5 speed or auto boxes , galvanised chassis' etc etc.

[spartacus]

I try not to get involved in these kind of discussions but this really winds me up. What's wrong with certain MOT stations having a tester who's been on a course and can do an extended once only test to satisfy that any work has been carried out to an acceptable standard.

As I read it most of our cars and nearly all on the blue forum would gain some points which seems crazy to me.

I'm happy to be corrected though.

[Tamworthbay]

The main problem seems to be idiots buying scrap tax free shells/ chassis and ringing a later car to save a few quid as exhibited by the coil Spring landys mentioned above. Some dickhead tries to fiddle a few quid and the majority suffer.

[John F]

NorfolkNWeigh, on 07 Jun 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:NorfolkNWeigh, on 07 Jun 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

God job this doesn't apply to Land Rovers...........image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg

 

 

Not only, not on Q's ,but free tax as well of course.

 

Amazing how many 1950's and 60's Series came with Tdi or V8 engines , coil springs, 5 speed or auto boxes , galvanised chassis' etc etc.

 

Land Rovers are a rather unusual case, as they've remained largely similar over many decades and are relatively easy to convert from one appearance to another. Also, Land Rovers tend to have long service lives and in some (although sadly not all!) cases may have been modified before the SVA test was introduced in 1998 by fitting Series panels to e.g. a shortened early Range Rover coil-sprung chassis.

 

This article explains the issue quite neatly: http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/vosalaw.htm

[Felly Magic]

I wonder what today's DVLA mob would think of LRT's Aldenham/Chiswick works, where nothing came out the same that it went in. 

[Rebuilda]

IF you have to declare anything to the DVLA don't use the word rebuild... its a red flag. Use the word 'restoration' instead and they will be much happier.

[STUNO]

No Q plates here, you can do what you like but the vehicle must be tested and certified by a qualified and registered engineer and is fitted with a plate under the bonnet that tells (MOT) testers what has been done.

 

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/faq.html

 

[DodgyBastard]

I have a car that's been re-shelled, converted to rhd and is on uk plates which are older than the shell. It has a non standard engine, brakes and suspension. I won't say which one...

[AlabamaShrimp]

It's come up a few times but I still don't get it. Why is a "reshell" not ringing it?

 

It's a totally different car with another cars bits and id

[garbaldy]

It's not ringing it as that's what it's called when it's stolen bits,

A reshell is fine if you own a rotter and buy a new shell not second hand,

 

Cavcrafts midget is a perfect example, when it crumbles to dust a new shell can be purchased and all parts swapped over,

[AlabamaShrimp]

I didn't mean as I a salon car being used. I meant it in the context of say those Land Rovers above or the numerous Escorts that are no way as old as they would appear on paper.

 

To me the shell is essentially the car. Change this and it's no longer what it was just because it's got some old bits on it.

[sierraman]

Do they even still issue Q plates? I haven't seen one for years?

[AMC Rebel]

The points system seems to be left over from the days of separate chassis.  If I put a different engine/trans in my 1956 Chevy and it needed a bigger transmission tunnel - I could install one without modifying the chassis.  If I was doing it to my AMC I'd be modifying the chassis in the eyes of the DVLA/VOSA/whatever they're called this week.  But actually the act of cutting and replacing the tunnel is pretty damn similar for each case - the system is nuts.  

[sheffcortinacentre]

what you also need to understand (sic) is that vosa work to one set of rules/regs & the dvla another.

 

you only need to tell the dvla if you fit another eng the number & cc, change of wheelplan or if you change the colour, fuck all else.

 

mot testers  (on behalf of vosa) only need to check the numbers/colour match the dvla records & if the set list of items are in a safe condition (pre 1980) vehicles require only an id plate or a stamped in chassis number.

they're only supposed to report any of the above discrepencies.

 

if approached by vosa your response should be,that any major mods where carried out before 1997, any post 97 (designed parts) where fitted in an adhoc (singular )occasion at least 13 months apart & it is up to them to prove otherwise.

 

sadly this approach is required as due to being the lowest scum in society, yes a car enthusiast & you are the cash cow that must support the nations dwindling finances.