TEH Horror, California car in OMGRUST calamity

[Clanger]

This is my 2002 Ford Crown Victoria on the dealer's lot in Kansas in 2003 when I broughted it.  It had 777 miles on the clock at the time and the price, including delivery to the westest coast of the US was about half of its new sticker price.

 

The CV is dedicated CNG and is my second natural gas powered Crown Vic.

 

At the time I was driving a fair few miles and I wanted something big and comfy that was cheap to run and allowed me access to the car pool lane with only one occupant.  I don't do that many miles any more, but you will have to pry the Crown Vic out of my cold dead hands as I lurves it.  These days it has 137,000 miles on the clock and is good for at least another couple of hundred thousand.

 

For the first time in my ownership it has started to play up a bit and I am trying to figure out what the problem is and how to fix a car that hasn't been made for years, and when it was it was only made in small numbers resulting in every CNG specific part being made of unobtanium.

 

I changed the oil a couple of months ago, which naturally led to the check engine light coming on... I mean, why wouldn't it?

 

I plugged in the OBDII scanner and came up with PO192 - low fuel rail pressure.  Everything was fine and dandy before I changed the oil and there didn't seem to be any issue that I could feel when I was driving.

 

Using the magic of Dr. Google I was able to find out that fuel pressure should be 125 psi at the rail.  So all I needed was a fuel pressure gauge capable of reading 125+ psi.  I couldn't be arsed to pay the price for a fancy gauge so I bought a cheapo one from Harbor Freight.  It only goes to 100 psi, but I reasoned that if it pinged the needle it was likely pushing out close to the correct psi.

 

Gauge showed a reading of 95 psi, so I figured it must actually be low fuel pressure.  I checked with a local garage who confirmed it was 95 psi at the rail.  This was a good news, bad news kinda deal - good news because the fuel rail pressure sensor is north of $700 if you can find one.  The garage ohmed out the sensor and declared it to be okay (more on that later), bad news because it meant that it was something else that would likely be a) more expensive; b ) harder to find; or c) both.

 

My fuel is stored under high pressure, and I mean really high pressure - 3600 psi high.  So it's not something you really want to fuck around with as it could all go quite badly if not careful.  What this means is, that the high pressure gas must be stepped down from 3600 psi to the fuel rail pressure of 125psi and this is done using a regulator.

 

My next deduction was that the regulator must be bad - otherwise why the low fuel pressure?  I mean the only thing between the fuel in the tanks at 3,600 psi and the fuel rail is the regulator, so logically it must be the culprit.

 

I got really lucky and found a scrap yard that had a CNG CV so I loaded up the tools and headed off.  It was relatively easy to get the regulator off the scrap car as it had no fuel tanks so no fuel pressure to worry about.  Even better is the fact that the scrappy knew the square root of fuck all about CNG cars and sold the regulator to me for $27.  A new one, if available, runs the best part of $2,500 - so WINNAH!  the worst part was lying on my back on gravel in 95 degree weather stripping the part from the CV - the car I got it from was ace though an ex taxi with something like 566,000 miles on the clock.

 

I got the regulator home and cleaned up.  Crown Vic was jacked up and put on 6 ton jack stands - ya can't be too safe...

 

I figured out that I could purge the fuel system by using the schrader valve on the fuel rail leaving me with a fairly easy swap.

 

Everything went back together without a problem.  I flushed the fuel system with injector cleaner and changed out the coalescent filter while I was at it.

 

I buttoned it all up and got the fuel pressure gauge out - pressure at the rail was now pinging off the needle, so well over 100 psi.  The car is smoother and definitely idles better when cold.  I canceled the Check Engine Light with my scanner and went for a test drive. 

 

Three miles into the test drive and the fucking CEL is back on.  WTF?

 

So the current state of play is as follows... fuel pressure is up at the rail, the cold idle is much improved, car drives smoothly and without any noticeable issues.  Fuel consumption has decreased - I haven't driven enough to know for sure but it could be down by about 15% or more.

 

I spoke to another mechanic today and he told me that ohming out the fuel sensor won't tell you if it is breaking down when in operation, so it could still be the sensor.

 

I had been contacted by a guy on the CNG forum offering to sell me one of his spare fuel rail sensors for $125 - this was when we thought they were unobtainable.  He has since emailed me to tell me they can be bought from Ford for about $700, so now he wants $350 - he can go fuck himself, I would rather get raped by the dealer than do business with someone like that.

 

So for now, the car runs and drives without any problems other than the low mpg and CEL.  The only real problem with the CEL is that I can't get it smogged while it's on, and without smog I can't register the car - I don't need registration till April, but I need to figure it all out before then.

[anonymous user]

That wasn't a like for the problem, by the way

[r.welfare]

Can you reset the light just before the smog test?

[the judge]

Back to the ex taxi in the yard for the sensor. If the car is running well,why not make up a little relay thingy that can duplicate the light? Like a relay attached to a bulb that lights for 3 seconds or something,then shove the bulb in the cel hole in the dash?

[STUNO]

You could try going around the rail with a match to check for leaks.

I actually ran a Holden CNG in the 80's See avatar pic for one the same. That was a carburettor though, the CNG carb effectively sat above the petrol carb. Power was down about 20% from memory, but cost about $nz7.50 to fill from empty with gas so really really cheap to run.

[artdjones]

I'd see if there's a manufacturer name and part no on the sensor and Google them.Ford don't make things like that themselves and its probably used in other applications maybe even on things like fork trucks.I know that in Europe the way to buy Bosch engine management parts is to use the Bosch part no and go through a Bosch dealer rather than buy from the car maker.

[2MB]

Does the exhaust smell like an unlit oven?

Ace car by the way

[warren t claim]

Eddyramrod will have numbers 1-59.

[danthecapriman]

Great car! I'd love one of these at some point.

Shame Ford are/have stopped making them.

[Asimo]

Extreme Crown Vic envy!

 

As for the pressure sensor, as is said above, try and identify the manufacturer. Pressure sensors are routine industrial parts, made in quantity.

http://www.gemssensors.com/Markets/Oil-and-Gas

Unless you know exactly what type of sensor it is "ohming it out" is not going to tell you very much. There are various ways of producing an electrical indication of pressure and they are all going to measure differently when poked with a test meter.

 

Like any other car electric problem it is as likely to be the connectors and cables in the circuit as it is the sensor itself.

 

Good luck.

[Clanger]

Can you reset the light just before the smog test?

Yes I could, but the car is hooked up to the OBDII while being smogged - typically if you cancel the CEL you will want to drive it about 50 miles before being smogged as it will register on the test equipment and result in a phail.

 

Back to the ex taxi in the yard for the sensor. If the car is running well,why not make up a little relay thingy that can duplicate the light? Like a relay attached to a bulb that lights for 3 seconds or something,then shove the bulb in the cel hole in the dash?

I may have left it too long as they move the cars around pretty quick, but I will take a drive out there and see if the taxi is still in the yard.  It's a fair distance, but a successful visit would pay for itself in spades.  I have looked in the local yards but no CNG cars at the moment.  Still kicking myself for not pulling that sensor when I was there.

 

You could try going around the rail with a match to check for leaks.

I actually ran a Holden CNG in the 80's See avatar pic for one the same. That was a carburettor though, the CNG carb effectively sat above the petrol carb. Power was down about 20% from memory, but cost about $nz7.50 to fill from empty with gas so really really cheap to run.

I knew that CNG was somewhat common in NZ as a mate used to drive a CNG taxi in Auckland.  My car is down on power compared to the petrol CV, but I didn't buy it as a drag racer, so no wuckin furries.  It accelerates and cruises well enough for me to get myself in trouble - I have toyed with the idea of dual exhausts and an intake system off a Mercury Marauder, but have decided to leave it well enough alone.

 

For the last 15 years I have been saving money on fuel hand over fist - at one point the difference between CNG and petrol was about $2.60 a gallon, this week it's only about 30 cents per gallon difference.  There was a point a couple of years back when I didn't pay for any fuel for over a year, but that's another story.  Full tank in my car runs about $22, my wife's car about $60

 

I'd see if there's a manufacturer name and part no on the sensor and Google them.Ford don't make things like that themselves and its probably used in other applications maybe even on things like fork trucks.I know that in Europe the way to buy Bosch engine management parts is to use the Bosch part no and go through a Bosch dealer rather than buy from the car maker.

That's not a bad idea, except... the part is stamped with the Ford logo and a Ford part number - I haven't been able to find any other numbers on it.  As best as I can tell these were only used in Ford dedicated CNGs, so F150 through 350 and the Econonlines as well as CVs.  Due to the relatively low production numbers Dr. Google has the best part of fuck all information on the sensor.  You can get aftermarket sensors, but they are still quite dear and they seem to be pretty hit and miss.  I am sure that they are made by someone other than Ford, but I don't know who, and I don't know what applications (if any) they had outside of Ford CNGs.

[Clanger]

Some poop seen while driving around the neighborhood this morning...

[Bren]

What does the car go like ie acceleration?

 

It look a lot of metal for a 4.6 to move about.

[Volksy]

I really want a Crown Vic. I had a good look round a P71 Spec one at a show once, and they seemed not much bigger than the Frog faced Scorpio. The CV is separate chassis/frame though IIRC, so probably do weigh quite a bit more. 

[Clanger]

What does the car go like ie acceleration?

 

It look a lot of metal for a 4.6 to move about.

 

It's not a rocket ship by any stretch of the imagination and the CNG has less power than the petrol version.  That being said it accelerates quite nicely, more than enough to get to freeway speed with everyone else and it can cruise effortlessly at 80 - 85.  I think I have seen the ton on it before, but my usual freeway speed is about 75 depending on conditions.  It's main advantage is comfort and space - at least for those up front as they have surprisingly shitty leg room in the back.

 

I really want a Crown Vic. I had a good look round a P71 Spec one at a show once, and they seemed not much bigger than the Frog faced Scorpio. The CV is separate chassis/frame though IIRC, so probably do weigh quite a bit more. 

It is not a small car, compared to most things on the road today you don't really notice it's size, but I parked it behind a Triumph Herald a while ago and it looked like my car was about to eat the Herald in one bite.

 

The 4.6 is a wonderfully versatile engine and there are loads of mods for the petrol version - it's in everything from Mustangs to Lincolns to Pick Ups, so plenty of support available - unless like me you have the CNG, then it gets a little* trickier.

[artdjones]

I saw a site CNGchat.com A memberthere said he knew a place in Seattle that had a load of scrapped taxis which were CNG including Crown Victorias.I know nothing about him but his email is [email protected] Post was dated in April.

[Clanger]

I am a member of CNGChat and I saw the post you are referring to.  I emailed the guy, but got no response. 

 

I should be able to turn up some more CNG Crown Vics locally as for a while a lot of the taxi fleets were using them.  Here in Orange County the maximum life of a taxi is 10 years, with a possible 1 year extension for a really clean, well maintained vehicle, so the '04s and '05s should be showing up around now - although they sometimes end up in other counties where the rules are less strict.

 

It will also depend on the year of the car - an '02 like mine has tanks that are certified for 15 years - so end of life for my tanks will be 2017, even though that doesn't account for the reduced duty cycle of my tanks compared to a taxi.  Later Crown Vics have tanks certified for 20 and 25 years, so may not get scrapped when the taxi companies are done with them.

 

The local scrap yards are a little lax at updating their websites with stock and they almost never specify if the car is CNG, so it's a little hit and miss trying to find them.

 

Cheers for finding the info and letting me know though.

[Asimo]

Presumably it is possible to convert to gasoline from CNG when the tanks get to their best before date? May not be worth the trouble of course but....

Does the engine oil stay super clean on CNG?

[sheffcortinacentre]

if your wanting one in the uk by a petrol one & fit lpg should give equivalent of 30mpg, my similar size falcon 4.0 auto does.

[Clanger]

Presumably it is possible to convert to gasoline from CNG when the tanks get to their best before date? May not be worth the trouble of course but....

Does the engine oil stay super clean on CNG?

I could convert back to gasoline as parts would be easy enough to find, but it would be a royal pain in the rear.  There is no requirement to get my tanks re-certified to drive the car, at least not at the moment - and given the engineering that went into the tanks and the duty cycle of the taxi with half a million miles on it compared to my measly 137,000 I am not looking at 2017 as an absolute cut off for my car.  I can buy second hand tanks with a longer certification, but they aren't cheap and unlike mine, I have no idea of how they have been used or abused over their life.

 

The oil does stay very clean looking - and I have heard tell that it is feasible to go 10,000 or more miles between changes but, as you know "clean" oil doesn't mean it is still doing the same job as new oil.

 

CNG definitely out performs LPG and it is cleaner burning.  LPG is more expensive here than CNG, right now I am paying $0.61 per litre (equivalent) - I am not too sure on LPG prices but it is probably closer to $1.05 per litre.

 

The only mainstream CNG car on the market here presently is the Honda Civic GX; not a bad little motor, but I still prefer my 13 year old CV.  There are a few companies that can convert new vehicles to CNG and still have California Air Resources Board approval, but that is big bucks, still maybe one day I will have a CNG Tahoe or Suburban just cos I can.

[sheffcortinacentre]

cng is almost unheard of in the uk,unlike lpg.

[Clanger]

Not many filling stations so it seems.  The only one shown in that there London doesn't have any updated information after January 2010.  Germany and the Netherlands on the other hand seem to have a pretty good infrastructure.

 

http://www.cngprices.com/station_map.php

[Station]

Can't you go back to the scrapyard, steal the sensor, then go back to scrapyard office with it stuffed in your tool bag scratching your head in puzzlement saying 'nope, someone got there before me'

 

What does this sensor do?

[cros]

I've heard quite a bit of praise over here for this immensely strong car.

[lisbon_road]

Thanks for sharing your interesting story.  I run cars on lpg which is easy over here.  Most lpg conversions here leave the ignition timing alone, though I am looking into changing mine on my car.  Apparently makes a really big difference to cng cars to have a load more advance - if yours is cng only perhaps it is set up right, or was it converted?

[Clanger]

My car is a factory build CNG - although IIRC that may have involved them being pulled off the production line and being completed at a Ford approved CNG converter.  It came with factory warranty from new and the VIN denotes it as a "factory" CNG car - in later years I think that a company called BAF in Texas took over the CNG side for Ford.

 

Well with today being the dreaded "black Friday" I thought I would chance my luck and see if the yard still had the CNG car I got the fuel pressure regulator from so I could get a new fuel rail pressure sensor.  The website said the car was still in the yard, but that means nothing as they are really bad at updating it.

 

My missus suggested I give the yard a call before making the 90 mile round trip - bless her... I acted out how that call would go so she could understand:

 

RING RING, RING RING, RING RING

 

Yard:  Hello, "couldn't give a fuck auto salvage," how may I fail to help you?

Me:  Er, your website says you still have the 02 Crown Vic that I got parts from a few weeks ago - do you still have the car?

Yard: Does the website say we still have it?

Me: Yes, but sometimes you don't update your website, so....

Yard: If the website says we have it, then we probably do... But we might not.

Me:  Would you mind walking through the billionty acres of wrecked old motors and checking for me please

Yard: Hold on.... CLICK

Me: Hello?  Hello?  Hello?

 

I think she got it.

 

Anyway, temperature in southern California has recently plummeted to a bone chilling 66 f, so I dressed up warmly with long sleeves and a scarf and headed out to brave the arctic weather. 

 

At the yard I paid my $2 entrance fee and headed to where the old taxi had been.  I could see a yellow Crown Vic in the same place so it looked like my luck was in... or not, some fucker with a sense of humour had replaced the yellow CNG Crown Vic with a yellow pez powered Crown Vic... bastards!

 

No sense in freezing my nuts off in the bitter southern California winter so I decided to head for home.  First I dragged out the iPad and checked out the yard 6 miles from my house.  Hmmmm... they listed an 02 CV that had recently come into the yard, and it had a picture...

The little badge on the front wing that you can just make out marks this out as CNG.

 

As the yard was on the way home it made sense to check in - anyone that suggests I should have checked this place first can take their reasonable and logical hindsight and FRO.

 

I paid my second entrance fee of the day and found not one, not two, but three CNG Crown Vics - WINNAH!

 

Of course I had failed to pack the appropriate tools, but after a little screwing around I got the sensors out of all three cars.  I was counting on the cashiers having sweet FA knowledge of CNG price parts, but I got a little nervous when talking to the fella in front of me - he knew right away that I had the fuel rail pressure sensors out of a non standard car, and came close to guessing what it was.

 

It took longer waiting in line to pay than it did to get the sensors out - today being black Friday, believe it or not the junkyard had a 40% off special and the place was mobbed.  You certainly get to see a little bit of the rich/poor divide in these places - the customers were predominately Hispanic as they tend to be on the lower end of the economic spectrum - and, if you are a less well informed sort you just refer to them all as Mexicans, even though they are Guatemalan, Honduran, Colombian, Argentinian, etc.  Perhaps they also come from a culture where they are more likely to repair things than just throw them away... anyway these junk yards are an interesting visit.

 

I wasn't able to get two of the sensors out of the fuel rail, so I just took that with it and I snagged a fuel temp sensor - with my nerves on edge I waited for a total... $34 and change - WINNAH, WINNAH!  Three new sensors from Ford - $2,100.

 

I will fit the sensor to my car over the weekend - maybe... I figure that with three sensors I have a good chance that I will find at least one working item - there again, I don't know for sure that the sensor is at fault on my car but, at $34 it has to be worth a punt.

 

I plan on going back to the local yard this week as I am going to pull out the PCUs and fuel pressure regulators to keep as spares, or maybe to sell on.

 

I will report back with the findings.

[Clanger]

Can't you go back to the scrapyard, steal the sensor, then go back to scrapyard office with it stuffed in your tool bag scratching your head in puzzlement saying 'nope, someone got there before me'

 

What does this sensor do?

Measures the fuel pressure at the fuel rail.

[Clanger]

We just got back from a mini break in the California mountain town of Julian - once a gold mining town, it's now known for its apple orchards, vineyards and annoying motorcycle clubs that ruin everything by making it the destination for their weekly/monthly run.  And I don't mean the good sort of motorcycle clubs that deal in meth and murder for hire, I mean the crappy ones with the weekend warriors wearing their stick on pony-tails, fake club cuts and silly loud Hardly Ablesons... one bell end was only wearing a t-shirt despite the weather being a mind numbing 45 degrees, and he had his stereo turned up to 11½ so everyone would notice him... I was going to take a picture but I decided he didn't deserve the attention.

 

I did manage to get a few pictures of local shite, some still being used for work at the vineyards...

 

Still being used as a hack at the Menghini Winery

Also still in use at Menghini

Not really in use, but still being used at Menghini

Another decorative piece of lawn art

 

And the best* for last - the 70s shagtastic van!  There was a whole load of them driving down Main Street, but I was responsible for the 2 dogs, so by the time I got my phone out I only got this crappy, poorly taken picture, but you get the idea...

[mercrocker]

Sun-baked pick ups and 70s street vans....Doesn't get any better

[Clanger]

Sooo, just to update the Crown Vic saga...

 

I finally got around to pulling out the fuel rail pressure sensor and replacing it with my bargain basement junk yard parts.  It took all of 2 minutes to swap the bits and all is well in CNG world again... the main reason I didn't post the update earlier is that it was a such a boring and simple fix and completely without drama.  My fuel consumption seems to be back where it should be and the check engine light is staying off... yay!

 

In other news... my mate is almost as bad as me at "working" on his project car - March 17, 2016 will mark the four year anniversary of us pulling his engine out - I have money on it not being reinstalled before the 4 year mark rolls around... even though the lump is rebuilt and ready to go, the engine bay is very far from ready to receive the shiny new 460.

 

I spent this past Saturday giving moral support to him while he removed the front right road spring - a job he has been putting off for ages - two plus hours were spent looking at the car, chatting and drinking tea, followed by 20 minutes of actually removing the spring.

We are dropping the control arm off to the machine shop tomorrow (Christmas Eve) to get the old ball joint removed and the new one installed.

 

My Rovah has been off the road about a year longer than his Lincoln and there is much guessing as to which one will roar to life first...