Is it us or the technology?

[Taff]

I loved my E36 325 coupe in the snow. 225/50 16s made it great fun.

[mossymossy]

Working in Poland for four years made me appreciate winter tyres. They make a monumental difference. They also work much better on cold damp slicky roads. Get a set of steels for your car. Get winter tyres on them and swap em over around nowish. It also makes you inspect and clean the wheels coming off properly. Plus the brake pads and discs get a once over. If we get any snow, you will be amazed the difference they make.

[dollywobbler]

There are some interesting generalisations here so let's explore with my actual experiences.

 

Take my driveway. Our first winter here, we had a shit load of snow. I also had many cars.

 

1) Citroen CX 2.5 automatic estate on cheap Hero tyres. Barely noticed the snow.

2) Citroen BX 19 non turbo diesel on Hankook summer tyres. Not going anywhere. Needed a tow with 4)

3) Citroen 2CV on Toyo 135s. Couldn't get off the driveway, but was light enough to make it with a push from Mrs DW.

4) Land Rover 90 V8 on summer tyres. No problem at all, even when towing 2). 

 

As I've related many times, the BX got hopelessly stuck on a really rather gentle hill back in 2010, probably because the temperature had plunged well below zero. I'd already driven from Cardiff that day (14 hours! Usually takes three) through plenty of snow, driving around grunting mongs who were littering the place. But when it got really cold and the snow turned to ice, I was screwed. We were in the middle of nowhere, so I was glad a 4x4 came along (at gone midnight!) to give me a tow up that hill (on all terrains). We'd tried letting the tyres down, but by this time, the rubber was like plastic. There was also so much snow that I'd had to stop, raise the suspension and kick the snow out of the wheelarches as it was starting to prevent the wheels from turning! It remains the most stressful driving experience of my life, doing 25mph and feeling that was too quick. My back was not touching the seat as I was so tense. At one point, we accidentally drove off the road because you just couldn't see where it was!

 

Going back quite a few years, I saw an AMG Merc SL sitting at the bottom of a hill, proving both that wide tyres and rear wheel drive are exactly what you don't want. Junkman can claim Icelanders use wide rubber for a reason, but what do rally cars do when it snows? Tyres that look like they were stolen from a 2CV, that's what. That's why front-wheel drive is so much better for snow (or rear wheel drive if rear engined). You want weight over the wheels, and you want those wheels to be narrow. On 195s attached to a 306 Turbo Diesel, I just about managed to get up the hill past the stranded Merc - at the second attempt. I do think I'd struggle in a car that was fighting me with technology though.

 

Mind you, I once took the Ford Maverick out in snow, on summer tyres, and got pretty hopelessly stuck. Poor Mrs DW to the rescue again. I sold it to a friend who then beached it in a snowdrift, so 4x4s are definitely not invincible. I recall being impressed by my Subaru Legacy (on ditchfinders) but that was when I lived in The East, where there are no hills. In fact, on that journey, Mrs DW was following me in her Mini, which was also very good!

 

I've just ordered a full set of winters for the Perodua. After all, if we get snow, I may prefer to risk that than the XM. Minimal power, minimal footprint and much lighter to push...

[castros_bro]

Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
How soft your fields so green, can whisper tales of gore,
Of how we calmed the tides of war. We are your overlords.

 

 

 

Places that have ice and snow as an annual treat insist on winter tyres in the winter, I'll not explain the reason except it could be all their politicians have shares in tyre companies.
 

[cros]

It doesn't matter on how trick your 4x4 is if you're running on road tyres then you're fucked in the snow.

I picked up a set of van snow tyres for my series 1 landrover. Hills are in short supply around here so not a thorough test, but it is much better now in snow using only 2wd than it was in 4wd. Made for a much heavier vehicle tyre wear wasn't a problem through the summer, doubtless I'm breaking some rule by leaving them on all year round.

[chaseracer]

Skinny tyres, light car, keep the momentum going.

 

Dyane.  On Michelins.

 

I was just about the only thing moving during one memorable snowfall some years back.  Oddly, several 4x4 drivers seemed to object to my not being stuck with them.

[Junkman]

Learn from the Canadians:

 

[John F]

Sorry to burst the bubble about the supremacy of the 2cv (& derivatives) in snow, but it seems that it's all just about the tyres & driver after all.

 

[J-Rod]

My Prelude was awful in the snow. It used to work well with hard pressure in the tyres (in Not Snow), so when the snow came (for the 3-4 days a year that it does), it was a pain as the back end would want to be the front all the time. 

 

Of course, I could have simply let the tyres down a bit and solved most of the problem... or just used it as an excuse to not to do much. 

[Taff]

I stacked a Warrior 512 in a snow-and-ice covered track in Gorni Vakuf once, even tracked vehicles can come unstuck with enough lager on board

[andrew e]

Tyres and or chains are pretty much the answer. It took longer to sweep the snow off than drop a 1000feet...

 

 

Infact despite being parked for 4 years in retirement the fat 225/55/16 Conti winter contacts are still on!

[forddeliveryboy]

Hadn't quite expected this topic to go in the direction it has - was thinking more along autoshite lines of why pay for all this tech when a decent design would do a better job and not bring up MoT-fail warning lights.

 

DW - not sure JM said anything about wide being the factor which makes things good in snow?

There seems to be a general assumption that a wide tyre means more tyre on the road - not true.

 

My experience in 'Arctic' conditions -

Off-roaders with four driven wheels may accelerate faster but generally have to travel more slowly to remain safe

Suspension which deforms at normal speeds and a lack of/minimal strength anti roll bars works best

Deeper snow best tackled with the largest diameter tyres possible

Contact area is mainly a product of two factors, vehicle mass and tyre pressure. So putting massive tyres on doesn't increase contact area if they're at the same pressure.

Rear drive (with front engine) can be just as good a front drive

A contact patch which is biased front-rear rather than side to side works much better - tread is in contact with the surface for longer, so more traction/grip and more stability

 

 

PS John F - A series Cits are great in the snow - much better than many (low centre of mass, supple smooth ride, high ground clearance, flat underbelly, low unsprung mass), but trying to set off up a slope on ice with summer tyres can be as much as a problem as in any other car.

[Lacquer Peel]

 

XUD-powered Peugeots and Citroens are great in the snow, they lug away in a high gear and have long travel suspension.

I drove my old Volvo 940 TD in the snow with winter tyres on the rear and it was rock solid too, with its basic live rear axle and long travel struts.

 

Winter tyres make a world of difference but good quality summer or all season tyres are the most you need in temperate parts of the UK.

I have driven part time 4x4s in the snow and preferred leaving them in 2WD because the handling is a lot more predictable. 4x4s are often the first vehicles you see in a ditch when a snowstorm hits.

It's fun driving past stuck 4x4s in a 2wd car.

[RayMK]

There are so many variables to consider when discussing traction on snow/ice that I can agree with most of the previous posts.  Drivers are a very mixed bunch, tyres of so many different types and qualities are available, terrain varies according to where you live/length of journey and other road traffic will churn up the slippery mixture of salt and snow as well as presenting ad-hoc chicanes when someone gets stuck.  An autoshite car is likely to lack electronic driver aids, be equipped with budget tyres and only have seat belts, not air bags.   Such drivers are thus constantly aware of their car's behaviour, its limitations and their own vulnerability if they get things wrong.  Modern cars probably do help dreamers and public road commuter rally drivers to avoid harming themselves in normal conditions, but how do some of these systems cope with snow and ice?  ABS gets confused, traction control tries for a minute then gives up.......but what about emergency braking assist.....and lane deviation warnings if you can't see where the road is, let alone the lanes....and automatic wipers that smear crud over the screen just when you were aiming to miss a tree?  I prefer the autoshite seat of the pants skilled judgement rather than electronic mollycoddling.

 

My personal experience driving in snow and ice is as follows:-

CZ175: Alsager to Aylesbury in treacherously icy conditions, with some snow.  Did not fall off, but frequent stops to warm my hands on the exhaust were essential.  The linked gear change and clutch pedal meant my frozen fingers did not have to operate any hand levers.

Vauxhall Viva HC:  It refused to move off the flat driveway and was hopeless at moving towards work in the snow. Scored highly because = day off work.

2CV6 and Dyane:  Hopeless heaters. Once moving, good grip driving through fresh snow up to 6" or so, and very controllable.  

Renault 12 and 20:  Both were good on snow and ice, the 20 being best except for the tendency of its gear change linkage under the car to seize up in a block of sludge.

Skoda Rapids and Estelles (I have had more than one of each):  Remarkable traction and controllability but best not to use the brakes because the light front end made wheel locking a certainty on snow and ice.  It forced me to learn cadence braking.

BMW 320i  E28:  Ok, but a bit of a wayward handful once underway.

Volvo 66 variomatic:  Good in snow and ice and the auto transmission gave excellent engine braking until the last metre or two when the centrifugal clutch lets go.

Nissan QX automatic: With its snow setting on the autobox, it was ok but traction disappointing for a heavy looking FWD car.

Reliant Rialto:  Apart from the front wheel following frozen ruts like a slot car, it always got me to work in winter conditions.  The biggest risk with a three wheeler on ice is suddenly finding a grippy patch when sliding sideways, so it's best not to speed.

Mitsubishi i 660cc turbo:  Rear engined automatic.  Fabulous fun except when it snowed.  Traction was hopeless and controllability difficult.

Landrover Long wheelbase:  Works 'car.'  I got it thoroughly stuck because, although I had selected 4WD, I did not know that you had to get out of the bloody thing to wind the front free wheel hubs into engagement. It moved after I had done this .

[Stanky]

Having only experienced heavy snow twice living here on the south coast (2009 and 2010 I think) the best car to tackle it was the Daihatsu Cuore we had at the time, it was light, had ridiculously light power steering but critical had tyres fitted which were fully interchangable with my BMX.

 

it gripped like mad, making it the WEPN_OF_CHOYS both years. My Mk3 golf did alright, famously dragging itself up portsdown hill, past QA while much more expensive, more modern stuff justr spun tyres and went nowhere. It was excellent after I stopped and let the tyres down from 30psi to about 10psi, then it gripped very well - however I was a prize turkey because the cold snap had borked all the local air and water machines, meaning I was stuck driving a car with 10psi front tyres for the next 2 weeks as I was skint and didn't have a foot pump at the time!

 

the subsequent winter - 2010 saw me in a ford mong-deo estate which actually coped alright, the ABS worked overtime but it didn't do badly cosidering it was big and had wide tyres (well, 195/65 r15s) but again I just let the tyres right down and it stuck fairly well. By this point I had got a foot pump so was better prepared!

 

We've not had snow since, but the lesson I learned from this was to lower tyre pressure and things were a lot easier. No-one else locally seemed to understand.

[mercrocker]

Like Stanky I live in the softy south where it hardly ever snows so its taken me 40 years to gain about 14 weeks experience.....By far and away the best car I have in such conditions is the moggy - skinny tyres, predictable Powah* and good, responsive steering.   My Oxford was an arse due to the opposite kind of steering, the Merc is tiresome being automatic and you never know what the power-assisted steering is doing.  T25 good for traction but fucking scary when it starts to let go.   Which brings me to another plus point for the Minor - skinny cars less likely to be where you don't want them to be.   The usually-svelte T25 is like a Bristol VR on slicks when its slippery underneath.

[colino]

It is an absolute fact that Winter tyres work.  I put on a set on my Jag and her 5 series two winters ago and we've barely had a whiff of snow since.  There is clearly a cut on winter tyres being passed on to the snow gods.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

I picked up a set of van snow tyres for my series 1 landrover. Hills are in short supply around here so not a thorough test, but it is much better now in snow using only 2wd than it was in 4wd. Made for a much heavier vehicle tyre wear wasn't a problem through the summer, doubtless I'm breaking some rule by leaving them on all year round.

Very silly to leave winter tyres on all year, at high temperatures and high speed cruising you may encounter some stability problems and if you had to do an emergency lane change at over 80 you won't have optimum control .

This will I hope, discourage you from such foolhardy behaviour, the precise computer designed suspension geometry on your car will only work with the correct factory specified tyres.

[dollywobbler]

Oh aye. I'm sure he regularly indulges in 80mph lane changes in a Series One Land Rover. 

[oldcars]

K11 Micra is all you need. My son was born dec 2010, really bad snow here. Big hill out of the hospital, high gear low revs, mixture of linglong/landsail/instantdeath tyres and i was passing loads of stranded stuff. Miss that wee car.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

I was going to post a picture of a 6.00 16 Avon, but thought ' computer designed suspension' might be enough.

[Lacquer Peel]

Very silly to leave winter tyres on all year, at high temperatures and high speed cruising you may encounter some stability problems and if you had to do an emergency lane change at over 80 you won't have optimum control .

This will I hope, discourage you from such foolhardy behaviour, the precise computer designed suspension geometry on your car will only work with the correct factory specified tyres.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Summer-VS-Winter-tyres-Warm-weather-performance.htm

 

There isn't much in it, a winter tyre in the heat of summer is a lot safer than a summer tyre in the depths of winter.

[Junkman]

 

 

 

 

How many poor little kittens and nuns had to die because of that numberplate?

[Stanky]

Oh aye. I'm sure he regularly indulges in 80mph lane changes in a Series One Land Rover. 

 

I suspect a series one at 80mph would be changing lanes all the time, whether the driver wanted it to or not.

[Pete-M]

I used my XJR last time we had proper snow. Trick with it was to engage drive, take foot off brake and let it gather momentum by itself. Any use of the throttle pedal and it would wheelspin, so it would push the throttle pedal at you to tell you you're being a dick, then it would brake the spinning wheel to try and sort things, and if that didn't work it would kill the sparks to reduce power. Easiest way was to just let it do its own thing. Twice I was the only one to make it into work - despite everyone else driving FWD stuff.

 

Last time we had some light snow I spent about half an hour drifting around a local car park in my old Impreza WRX. Excellent fun.

 

Best car I've ever driven on snow? Sierra 2.0 CL 4x4 Estate on Nokia winter tyres. That thing was brilliant. The option of driving it sensibly or pretending to be a Finnish snow God always resulted in highly amateurish but mega enjoyable four wheel drifts.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

It could just be that I've been lucky , but in 35 years and millions of miles, I've never been stuck in snow or failed to get somewhere because of snow. Admittedly I've sometimes only considered a journey because I've been in one of Solihuls finest but even in RWD auto fat tyred barges, I've just about managed to get home, but then I don't live in The Alps or Scotyorkswelshland.

[twosmoke300]

If you ever fancy some entertainment then come to cornwall when it's snowy . Watching the Cornish drive in snow is comedy gold !

[Craig the Princess]

I had a job interview for a large Peterborough based media group in 2008's snow. Drove from Kent to Peterborough in our LDV400 (all other vehicles being broken at the time) and arrived on time.

Person interviewing me couldn't make the 4 miles into doing Peterborough. Had the interview the next week, still didn't get it! The LDV did very well, helped by the 4 tyres on the driven rear axle.

 

Did learn one trick that day, I couldn't get out of the frozen slush in the car park, a lady gave me a packet of dishwasher crystals which worked brilliantly to get traction on the ice.

[chaseracer]

Hadn't quite expected this topic to go in the direction it has...

 

Take a moment to remind yourself where you are... 

[brickwall]

 Yes and yes, he probably has no idea what a diff actually is....

 

 

The amount of seized bits n pieces I've seen because nobody has bothered to move the little lever now and again.