PAS, ABS, ESP, do you need it?

[cros]

I have mostly avoided cars that have stuff that was once considered as 'extras'. I like to open the window manually same as I do in my house, and some mid sized 50's cars are easier to park than the worst of todays bloated offerings. Is it just me that thinks we don't need all this crap?

[jonny69]

I don't need it, you probably don't need it, but I aksed myself the same question recently. The simple answer is that there are scores of fucktards on the roads who struggle to get through basic life tasks, let alone being able to control a car safely. So would you trust them fully in charge or would it feel better knowing they had a bit of help?

[dollywobbler]

Mrs DW hates all of those things, which is why I bought the Nippa. The main problem with the technology is that it is not fool proof. I think that on ice for example, I'd prefer to have complete control of traction and braking. If the car is moving but wheelspinning, the last thing I want is for some computer to shut the power off. And for braking, cadence braking works pretty nicely for me - but it's a skill that took a lot of developing. Not something most drivers have. Especially as the learning experience still often meant getting it wrong at first...

 

Actually, I still remember my first successful cadence brake. It was at the roundabout just past the Land Rover factory and I was an 18-year old in my first 2CV. Went barrelling towards that roundabout far too quickly in the wet, hit the brakes, skidded, cadenced, managed to knock enough speed off to get around the roundabout. We had loads of snow just months after I passed my driving test, so my poor Fiesta Mk2 took a right battering as I experimented with car control...

 

And that's the problem. To put every single driver through that sort of education would not be cheap. Far easier to chuck in ABS and stability control, though it can then lead to a feeling of invincibility...

[MarvinsMom]

no you do not.

 

generally.

 

though power steering on the maestro I used to own would have been nice cos it was a real heavy bugger to move at slow speeds. I would have to have arms like popeye to cope with the rover 75 if that didn't have power steering, as it has a kerb weight of nearly 2 tonnes and a diesel anchor hanging over the front wheels.

[derskine]

Never owned a car with power steering, or ABS. Owned one car with electric windows.

Basically, not required.

[dollywobbler]

My XM does not need stability control. 

[Negative Creep]

I'd much rather have ABS. Yes in theory you could pump the pedal to avoid the wheels locking up, but frankly I'd rather not be trying that as I'm sliding towards the back of a lorry. Electric windows are better if you're in the car by yourself

[Jazoli]

I disagree, abs is great and you may be the best cadence braker in the world but sometimes you have other things to worry about like finding an escape route or avoiding a crash, knowing you can just stand on the pedal and the car will do its thing much better than you ever can is reassuring.

 

PAS is also great, why the fuck would you not want it? My last car without with was a 1.6 mk4 escort and it was horrid to park and at low speed.

 

Electric windows also are great, want to wind the passenger window down on a hot day? Unlucky if you can't reach the handle.

 

I also like air con, stability control and remote central locking, I have had dozens upon dozens of cars with all these things and very few issues.

 

All the new stuff like self park, radar guided cruise etc is all a bit too much but if it works then why not?

 

It must be a forum full of masochists, I like old shite but the lack of modern features (like pas) stops me using something really old and shite as a daily as I really can't be arsed.

[Slartibartfast]

My one accident, approx one month after passing my test, was avoiding the car in front braking to a dead stop from 80mph in torrential rain. His car was pretty new, mine was a mk1 Focus with no ABS. I was incredibly fortunate that I had enough room on the right to skid past, and took off enough speed such that when I did impact the median I wasn't hurt. I was made to appreciate modern cars and modern braking systems on that day.

 

Also I have a colleague who has badly compomised eyesight due to being in an accident in a car without working airbags.

[dollywobbler]

I disagree, abs is great and you may be the best cadence braker in the world but sometimes you have other things to worry about like finding an escape route or avoiding a crash, knowing you can just stand on the pedal and the car will do its thing much better than you ever can is reassuring.

That's the key really. I tend to steer before braking most times. Even when I've had ABS, I don't think I've ever caused it to activate in an emergency.

 

PAS is also great, why the fuck would you not want it? My last car without with was a 1.6 mk4 escort and it was horrid to park and at low speed.

That depends entirely on the car. On a big car, I can see it is necessary. I have no idea why it is fitted to small cars. The Nippa does not need it.

 

Electric windows also are great, want to wind the passenger window down on a hot day? Unlucky if you can't reach the handle.

On the XM, that would indeed be an issue. The Nippa is so narrow that it is not a problem.

 

I also like air con, stability control and remote central locking, I have had dozens upon dozens of cars with all these things and very few issues.

Air con has its advantages, but I find it dries my sinuses out. Remote central locking has its advantages too I'll grant you.

 

[cros]

I don't need it, you probably don't need it, but I aksed myself the same question recently. The simple answer is that there are scores of fucktards on the roads who struggle to get through basic life tasks, let alone being able to control a car safely. So would you trust them fully in charge or would it feel better knowing they had a bit of help?

Can't argue with this, just depressing that its part of a steady descent towards being relieved of responsibility for anything.

[DVee8]

Great video DW.

 

The one that worries me is the reverse park assist, relying on sensors and camera's to allow a car to reverse park in between 2 cars or into a bay with a car behind or even a post or wall

If the car with P/A were to hit another object who is to blame? can it pick up say a passing child or animal that may move into the space the car is reversing into?

 

Also reverse,parallel parking is a art the could disappear with the reliance on tech.

[dollywobbler]

Great video DW.

 

The one that worries me is the reverse park assist, relying on sensors and camera's to allow a car to reverse park in between 2 or into a bay with a car behind or even a post or wall

If the car with P/A were to hit another object who is to blame? can it pick up say a passing child or animal that may move into the space the car is reversing into?

 

Also reverse,parallel parking is a art the could disappear with the reliance on tech.

 

To be honest, I struggle with reverse parallel parking these days. Since I moved from Birmingham in 2003, I just don't do it often enough and I seem to have lost the knack. Mind you, reversing the XM is like trying to reverse a house. Only the visibility is usually better in a house.

[Lacquer Peel]

I like central locking, and I've owned a couple of modern FWD diesel cars without PAS - never again.

[DVee8]

Were as i try to reverse park every were,the only time is maybe if i have to go food shopping with MrsV8.This i try to avoid.

[HMC]

I rate ABS but from the perspective a shiter cars with less electronic systems tend to make better bets as bangers.

 

The amount of warning lights on start up in the alfa ( which presently all go out) is a sobering sight.

[mossymossy]

I agree with most of what's said. It's nice to have all these mod cons.However, I owned a Clio trophy once and tried to drive it in the snow with the traction on. It just refused to move just sat there shivering and juddering. The wife scared the living daylights out of herself in the snow in a Volvo v70. Travelling down hill to a T junction, she said."The car just seemed to go faster, the brake peddle was juddering, and I shot out into the road." Give me locked wheels and a wedge of snow in front of them, over abs.

I got my first car with abs in the late 90's. I got real lazy with it, just slamming on at the first hint of an emergency. Working in Poland in 2007, I was given a nearly new kangoo van. No abs. Even if there is no snow about, their roads are megga greasy and slippy in winter. I had to relearn to brake manually again. I.e modulate the break pressure for the conditions. It was a good revision lesson.

[dugong]

ESP baffles me. It's very hard to lose the back end of a modern car with ABS fitted unless the road surface is terrible - and ABS is useless on split mu surfaces anyway.

 

As much as people put stock in these aids (because that's what they are, aids) you can't argue with physics. ABS only works as well as the tyres can grip the tarmac. Yes, they're useful for panic braking mid bend - but you shouldn't do this anyway. Aids are no substitute for proper training. Then again, the majority of people couldn't give a toss about driving and see their cars as nothing more than a wheeled Bluetooth streaming dock.

 

LP is right about PAS on diesel cars with heavy lumps - it's about the only improvement (along with EFI in petrol cars) I can appreciate. 'Feel' is a huge issue with any kind of mechanical (or electronic) assistance - the same goes for servoed brakes.

 

The only modern things my Amazon has is 12 volt electrics and radial tyres. The steering's unassisted and there's no servo for the brakes either (although it does have discs up front).

[xtriple]

I learned to cadence brake early on as well and it served me well in a few horrible winters, but once I had a taste of ABS, I have never had a car without it!  The cars electronics can do it a lot faster than me and apart from those rare occurrences where it is actually better to lock the wheels (snow, gravel anything that builds a wedge under the front wheels) I trust it to get me out of trouble I should have foreseen but didn't....

 

PAS? Why the hell not? A heavy car without it has to have a serious rack ratio to make it possible to park - lots of wheel twirling required and a lack of precision and feel.

 

Electric windows. I believe that they are unnecessary but nice to have and very convenient - where the Hell would Chester be if he couldn't open the rear windows in our car? Therefore, I conclude that electric windows were designed to enable dogs (who do not have the required manual dexterity to use 'winders') to hang their heads out of the rear windows of cars and is therefore, totally needed

 

The main reason though for ALL of the safety kit (ABS, EPS, stability control, brake force assist, etc) is simply because people are fucking retards! No one (except us lot natch!) takes any pride in being able to drive properly so the more things there are that 'may' prevent these dickheads from crashing into me, the better.

[LC Torana]

Given that 99.9% of this forum are only interested in modern cars, the outcome of this thread was pretty much foreordained.

[dave21478]

Spend 20 minutes standing by a busy road in town looking at the drivers rather than the cars.

Look how many people are on the phone, fiddling with the radio, turning to face passengers to talk, or just generally in a complete daze and tell me ABS and ESP are a bad thing.

[Junkman]

I drove cars with ABS only as hire cars and find them frightening. They brake worse than a friend's 1951 Studebaker does. I once drove a car with ASR and that frightened me even more.

It refused to accelerate, when I tried to pull into traffic. I do love my mod cons though and especially the yanks, but also other waftbarges I have owned, usually came with all the toys.

When I took the plunge into P6 ownership a few years back, I thought I'd install CL and EWs and all that stuff eventually, but surprisingly started to appreciate its minimalism instead.

I always enjoyed ingenious simplicity, as displayed for example by a Renault 4, or a Munga. I think there is a fine line between simplicity, which I like, and austerity, which I hate.

So for some reason I cannot really explain, I find for example an Opel B Kadett simple and an Escort MK1/2 austere. I always chose my cars with my heart, not rationale.

Generally I prefer cars with big engines and expect these to have PAS and Auto.

[Junkman]

The main reason though for ALL of the safety kit (ABS, EPS, stability control, brake force assist, etc) is simply because people are fucking retards!

 

People are fucking retards because they are systematically and intentionally dumbed down. Those driving assistants certainly contribute to it, however only partially intentional.

Over the past three decades, cars were ever more festooned with gadgets perceived contemporary, while in reality they technologically withered. Without all those little electronic helpers,

they would handle like pissed up camels and pollute us to death. Also, it should be clear by now where the trip is really heading - the self-driving car under constant surveillance.

[Cavcraft]

I love pas, electric windows and whatnot. Old cars are but I want my 'luxuries' especially on a daily driver.

[oldcars]

Power steering and abs is good on a daily. Not fussed about the rest. 

[Taff]

I'd much rather have ABS. Yes in theory you could pump the pedal to avoid the wheels locking up, but frankly I'd rather not be trying that as I'm sliding towards the back of a lorry. Electric windows are better if you're in the car by yourself

 

Have to agree with this. The F has ABS, EPAS, CL & leccy windows. About all you should need, I reckon. The X has none of them, I'm looking forward to the frustration of learning to do without!

 

I disagree, abs is great and you may be the best cadence braker in the world but sometimes you have other things to worry about like finding an escape route or avoiding a crash, knowing you can just stand on the pedal and the car will do its thing much better than you ever can is reassuring.

 

PAS is also great, why the fuck would you not want it? My last car without with was a 1.6 mk4 escort and it was horrid to park and at low speed.

 

Electric windows also are great, want to wind the passenger window down on a hot day? Unlucky if you can't reach the handle.

 

I also like air con, stability control and remote central locking, I have had dozens upon dozens of cars with all these things and very few issues.

 

All the new stuff like self park, radar guided cruise etc is all a bit too much but if it works then why not?

 

It must be a forum full of masochists, I like old shite but the lack of modern features (like pas) stops me using something really old and shite as a daily as I really can't be arsed.

 

yeah, agree with most of that too

[beko1987]

I havent got abs any more. Used to have it, and although ive never used it for hard braking, in the snow in the puma I got lazy and just 'pulled away' slowly, listening to the abs scrabble for traction and smooth things out. Not driven the zx in the snow yet, but a few rainy mornings a few weeks ago I did full on wheelspins our of our road onto the bypass. Controlled by easing off slightly until it didnt slip then back onto the power.

 

Central locking and leccy windows and pas are about all I care about, but cohld prob do without leccy windows and central locking. Never driven a non pas car, so not sure about that

[Royale80]

I like PAS-once had a mk1 Grannie without it- it was hard to park then and I was 18 not 50 like now. Leccy windows are handy but I do like central locking- no having to lean over seats. ABS very useful safety device.

 

So again horses for courses-I like things to get easier as I get older.

 

How many of us have tellies etc without a remote? I couldn't think of anything worst than getting up and down to change channel. If people want to become masochists buy a horse and cart and go back to coal fires ( I remember waking up in the winter and scraping patters into the frost on the inside of the windows).

 

as always - each to his/her own!

[cort16]

I turned the traction control off on my CL500 and did a full throttle exit from a junction (on my private test track) and ended up the wrong way around even though I was expecting it to slide. My point is in cars with a lot of power it stops stupid people doing stupid things.

[Asimo]

If I could buy a new car without these things, then I would. Bring back delete options.

 

I feel a bit ambivalent about ABS. I often trigger it driving on the muddy single track roads around here where maximum effort stops are routine, and it does make those stops easy and undramatic. I am pretty good at controlling braking but I know that in a total panic situation I am not as good as ABS is at keeping the wheels rolling.

 

And I am always glad that the distracted muppet bowling toward me has ABS fitted to his 2 tonne / 200 kW entertainment centre.

 

In 25 years of owning ABS equipped cars, I have been lucky, as I never had a fault with the anti lock system, (unlike just about every other part of the brakes).