Potential Dilemma - LPG v Dizzle, the debate.

[outlaw118]

Talking to a chappie at teh pub the other night, and he was absolutely insistant that diesels were the way forward, all the usual stuff

- Engines last longer

- They drink a lot less

- No noisier than a petrol (I laughed at that one)

- Turbo diesels are as quick as the equivalent petrol.

 

I countered with:

- That modern diesels have lots to go RONG (exhibit one: Sir Trigz Focus m'lud)

- Diesel is more expensive to buy, both the fuel and the car itself attract a premium, and it's only high mileage where it's cheaper.

- I drive a diesel van. I know how noisy that is.

- In personal experience I've driven my olds Merc 250TD and a pez 2.2 and I know which one I'd have.

 

So my alternative is to get an lpg's motor, small power loss, but LPG is about 60% of the price of pez, so that's a better bet Shirley?

 

What's the AS MASSIVE's thoughts?

[DSdriver]

Never had a diesel but Boris says they are the spawn of Satan, and having had to back off following a few belching out all sorts of noxious smoke I tend to agree with him. They're prolly all right when your in them but not when your following.

[320touring]

I have access to both.

 

tdi octavia is 700+miles a tank, about 9p/mile. not sporty, nor particulalry engaging to drive. been reliable so far, comfortable and relaxed.

would be 3-4p mile on wvo.

 

the 335i does 22mpg on lpg at 60p/litre-12p a mile. goes like fuck (big petrol engine, see) runs clean-very little bore wash due to vapour. lpg can be fiddly to set up and keep working right-especially single point systems.

reduced luggage space may also be a concern. Range is significantly shorter than the tdi (180miles to a tank of lpg).availability can vary too.

 

 

in my opinion, dervs are good for long schleps-sensible load luggers and reliableish dalies.

 

LPG best used to mitigate running costs of ruinously large engines, be they in barges or something less appropriate.

 

if I had to do 2k miles a month, then a 2000ish tdi would be a plan.

 

if i had to do 1k a month, lpg barge ftw!

[dollywobbler]

Diesel, but not if it's any more modern than my XM. With no electronic controls whatsoever.

 

LPG isn't really all that viable for me as I'm a minimum 12 miles away from a station, which is not a waypoint whenever I drive further. Also, LPG systems seem to have a nasty habit of being crap and riddled with faults. Probably because the mingebags who run them never spend any money on servicing the LPG side of things. As 320 says, there's the question of where the tank goes, and how much range you actually get out of it too. I'll stick to diesel thanks. I like the torque delivery (of a decent turbo diesel that is), and the noise is no bother once under way.

 

Alternatively, just go petrol without the LPG. Some modern petrol engines can be surprisingly economical. I know folk who've topped 35mpg in Xantia V6 Autos for instance. If you can resist the power and noise, a big engine driven gently can be thrifty.

[outlaw118]

 

 

 If you can resist the power and noise

That's where the theory goes a bit tits up TBH.

 

I just can't be trusted.

 

I suppose it's all about priorities, my Seat gets parked up on a Sunday pm, and probably won't be used again till Friday.

 

It's the car I/we use for longer journeys - I won't smoke in the wife's Fiesta, plus that's an two-pedal model, and it annoys me. It's also bloody quick - but there's the trade-off. If I drive it sensibly, it'll do 40ish mpg. If I don't (Barnstaple Devon - Grays, Essex in a smidge over 3 hours) it's more like 25. that's where the lpg'd-ness would be useful. 

I'm sure that there will be a modern diesel that would compete, but as Mr WollyDobbler said, older diesels without gubbins are the preference. And then I'm likely to blow it up.

 

Hmmm.....

[NorfolkNWeigh]

mr Outlaw,I think that one of your cons is a bit outdated. In certain classes Diesel is the norm now so there is no premium,either new or used. In fact the rarity of petrols can mean they're a bit more sort after and have better residuals. A6 s,5 Series and E Class petrols fall into this. Chrysler 300 Hemis were virtually unsaleable 3 or 4 years ago,now they're worth 50% more than CRDs.

 

Personally I hate diesels but when you do high mileages,they still make sense,.

80,000 miles a year at 40 mpg = 2,000 gallons of diesel

80,000 miles a year 30 mpg = 2666 gallons of petrol

Even with petrol at £5.04 and diesel at £5.31 that's a saving of £3,500 to me this year for tolerating a 530 d instead of an i.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Just worked out if I had an LPG car that did ,say 25 mpg it would still cost cost me an extra £1,000 per year. That's based on £3.41 a gallon for gas. Does this make sense? Of course I couldn't afford to lose any luggage space and the cost of converting would have to be taken into account.

[LC Torana]

LPG tank explosion at the bowser

 

LPG tank explosion on the highway

 

LPG tank explosion in the street

 

LPG tank explosion in America

[garethj]

If you're doing a lot of miles then the small tank range of LPG would be an issue.

 

My old Skoda and Land Rover would both do over 500 miles between refills, if you were careful with the Skoda it would do 600 miles.  The Suzuki just about does 350 miles and it's tedious to have to fill up so much more often.  I'd go crackers if it were every 180 miles, I used to get more tank range from my motorbike!

[omegod]

LPG tank explosion at the bowser

 

LPG tank explosion on the highway

 

LPG tank explosion in the street

 

LPG tank explosion in America

Last one should be explosion in Warrington  

 

I ran a 3.0 V6 auto Omega on gas for 3 years and other than normal servicing it never missed a beat, averaged 18mpg so about 32 round town and up to 45 on a run. Smiles per miles it couldn't be beaten . I run a 306 HDI shiter at the mo and it is impressive at 50mpg but I wouldn't touch a modern diseasal with a 20 ft shitty stick, 1k for DPF,1k for a set of injectors, 1k DMF , 1k Turbo ....... not worth the risk

[Richard]

LPG is worth it purely for the joy of seeing the litres advance faster than the pounds on the pump.

[lisbon_road]

I get 44 mpg from an Astra on lpg, and am about to register for a Countrywide account that I believe is 48p/litre.  You won't beat it for running cost.  That is 5p per mile.  

 

It is a new system which by all accounts is going to be very reliable.  The days of struggling to get them to idle and power loss are long gone.

 

We all have different priorities but for me the cleanliness is a big plus.  There are reasonable numbers of outlets, very convenient for me and paradoxically the motorway service stations aren't too expensive.

 

It is a bit of an enthusiasts thing, but I'm an enthusiast.  

[skattrd]

It depends on the car and how you plan to use it.

 

If you do a lot of miles - diesel

If you want a big engined car to run not too expensively - lpg

 

Lots of miles on lpg is a pain in the arse. Filling is slow and unless you have huge tanks you are constantly thinking of where to fill up next. Then there is the issue that if you have huge tanks they take up space, so it's always a trade off with lpg.

[dollywobbler]

Exactly. Unless you have a large tank, you start experiencing all the downsides of an electric car - ie range anxiety and wondering where on earth you'll get your next charge. Volvo 850 diesel. Sorted.

[Rusty_Rocket]

My experience is this-

Diesels are horrid, noisy, stinking monsters that reliably do what you need.

LPG vehicles are refined, smooth and clean.. but they're never as cheap to run in the real world and the systems are temperamental!

I'd love another LPG car but I'm always left disappointed by them

[lisbon_road]

Modern lpg systems are not temperamental.  Way back I ran a cars with the lpg equivalent to a carburettor and they were hard to get to idle and generally a bit temperamental.  Now the modern injection systems are as reliable as diesel or petrol.  

 

There are loads of filling stations, though I appreciate that certain people in certain areas might have a problem.

 

As to the space argument, can't really argue with it.  I lost the spare wheel well.  But I could carry a can of that gas that is used to fill up punctures and I'd be ok.

[Rusty_Rocket]

It's the modern ones I had trouble with, the last being a Bigas sequential system. Perhaps I just got a crappy one.

[mat_the_cat]

LPG vehicles are refined, smooth and clean.. but they're never as cheap to run in the real world and the systems are temperamental!

 

I'd agree they're not as cheap as the people claiming half-price motoring, and an incorrectly specified/poorly installed/never serviced system may be temperamental. Sadly with anything done primarily to save money, there's always the temptation for corners to be cut. But if you go into it well informed (it's not the ideal solution for everybody) and the costs make do make sense for you, in my experience it can be faultless for years.

 

As for the explosions, if it has been fitted correctly then even a leak can't allow gas into the car. I'm sure if you Googled petrol tank explosions there would be some results too

 

Lastly for a bit of balance:

 

Obviously a correctly fitted system seeing as it is blatantly a promotional video...

[lisbon_road]

I suppose in fairness all installations are one off to some extent.  As such, you could argue that all the effort that goes into a car design, stuff like failure mode analysis of every possible detail, just can't possibly be applied to individual installations.  Perhaps I should change my statement to 'modern installations should not be temperamental'.

[Jim Bell]

Try getting someone to weld a car fitted with LPG.

[320touring]

Try getting someone to weld a car fitted with LPG.

had no issues getting the 335i done in front footwells. mobile chap turned up, shown car and lpg-nae borrer

 

luckily rear end on e30s is not too bad for rot(apart from arches)

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Does anyone know why LPG cars aren't allowed on Eurotunnel ? They've got no problem with gas bottles in campers and caravans, but there are signs refusing to take LPG cars.

[lisbon_road]

I believe it is just a matter of insurance.

[mat_the_cat]

The only logical reason I can think of is the overpressure release. It's very unlikely, but if a tank is filled at a low temperature and then heated, it will vent out a small amount of gas to the outside of the car. Not a problem in a well ventilated area, but could be in a tunnel... I guess that with the smaller tanks/bottles permitted for motorhomes, any venting is seen to be negligible. Or motorhomes and caravans make up too much of their business to turn away!

 

I've only known as tank vent once, when it was filled at sub-zero temperatures, followed by a very mild spell when I was running on petrol (needed to get the gas system mapped) so hence the tank stayed full.

[gordonbennet]

I ran Diesels since the early 80's, ponderous naturally aspirated bastards they were in those days, but utterly reliable and just simple, so long as you changed the cambelt when due, an annual fuel filter, and most important regular oil and filter changes with Diesel engine oil they just didn't go wrong, if they did they were easy peasy to fix.

Forward to the days of IDI turbo Diesels with mechanical fuel pumps and injectors, motoring heaven, basically the same but increasing the frequency of oil services and training yourself to let the engine warm and cool down would see stupedous trouble free fast and frugal bliss...BX/405 td anyone?

 

Then the rot set in, we'll go common rail, electronic this that and the other, electronic injectors that cost a fortune, pumps made of cheese..oh and we'll stick a DMF on just to make sure your clutch costs induce a heart attack, then bollox the bastards have started buying torque converter auto Diesels and those same bastards don't believe our sealed for life gearbox wheeze, so i know we'll really fuck 'em over by sticking a filter in the exhaust manifold and for good measure some piss flaps inthe inlet manifold that the engine should ingest shortly after warranty expires, and if thats not enough we'll stcik an unfit for purpose EGR valve on and bury it right down the back of the engine....kerbleedingching.

 

I sold our last Diesel about 4 years ago and i see no reason to buy another.

 

LPG is the fuel of choice for us.

 

Cost is only part of it, here's a few of my reasons.

 

You can run proper 6+ cylinder torque converter auto boxed motors for about the same running costs as a same sized Diesel, with the benfits of reasonable cost without the downside of modern Diesel driveability or lack of it, no turbo lag and none that frustrating 2000rpm power band which has the typical Diesel driver changing gears more often than i used to with  a Foden 12 speed crash box.

When you go and fill up you can stick two large fingers up at dick turpin the chancellor, gives you a well earned semi every time...currently 56.9p at Morrisons Wellingborough and i've bought  some a few months ago from Leicester Flogas for about 45p.

My two conversions are proving reliable, oddly enough the Polish system fitted to the MB (by a British old school converter) has been nothing but a complete success, i get around 250 local running fast miles to a tankful.

 

 

Most modern Diesels are 4 cylinder and quite honestly they belong in tranny vans and fuckin tractors, they're shit, they sound bloody awful and invariably have no low engine speed torque worth mentioning, i hate the bloody things with a vengeance.

It wasn't always like this, had a old school 3.0 litre turbo Diesel 4 pot in an old Landcruiser which was smooth and sweet sounding, you literally could not stall it the bloody thing would climb a near vertical wall on tickover and you'd still hear the turbo spooling up as the mechanical pump fed more fuel in, brilliant engine, on the road you could barely hear the engine, you'd drive it on the whine from the blower, so why do modern 4 pot Diesels have to sound so bloody awful.

 

LPG for me for the forseeable, i hope it stays a niche market cos if too many jump on the bandwagon the govt of the day will cash in.

[outlaw118]

Thanks for the input chaps...and Mr Gordon-bennet....that was pretty much exactly my argument re running costs and shizz. 

 

I'm right, pub bloke RONG.

 

Now; what... (searches for V6 Alfa 156 with lpg on ebay...)

[andy18s]

The 3.9 V8 Disco I've just sold to Skizzer would do 15-16mpg on petrol on my rural commute,12-14 whilst on lpg.

The lpg meant I could afford to run it as a daily as it worked out as cheap (?) to run as the Mrs' Tdv6 Disco 3

The diesel p38 I've now got does the same 25ish mpg as the D3 as well but is nowhere near as quick tho........

[cros]

Does anyone know why LPG cars aren't allowed on Eurotunnel ? They've got no problem with gas bottles in campers and caravans, but there are signs refusing to take LPG cars.

Its because Mr Eurotunnel is worried about badly fitted LPG systems. Properly fitted and set up they don't leak and the car runs right.

Put a blow torch on a plastic tank and an LPG tank, see which goes up first. As for not welding a car with a gas tank, why wouldn't you remove it first?

[New POD]

Having done 70K in 4 years in a 2.2 Honda diesel, I'd like to point out that unless the alternator clutch is on the way out they are quite. But then given the amount of sound proofing, you'd expect that. And quick. Or rather quick enough. Acceleration in 5th from 70 mph upwards is fecking great. So motorway cruising is so easy.

 

But in the back of my mind is that for less money I could have got a 2.4 petrol version and converted it to lpg.  And which would anyone prefer ? The 2.4 version.

[outlaw118]

HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION FATMAN!!!123!!!

 

I am now a Scotch, therefore need a Volvo.

 

I've been looking at V70 D5's and V70 2.4 Pez.

 

The first issue is that anything within my price range (2k) appears to have been to the moon, or been driven by Stevie Wonder. Or both.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOLVO-V70-2-4-LPG-AUTOMATIC-ESTATE-COMPLETE-WITH-M-O-T-HPI-CLEAR-INC-WARRANTY-/321838434096?hash=item4aef10c73003 plate, badermatic 145k, on gas. £1795.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VOLVO-V70-2-4-ESTATE-2002-D5-S-DIESEL-/291548534067?hash=item43e1a59533same money, 2002 51plate 174k.

 

I donb't use the car every day; however it's the vehicle of choice for a long distance run, ie holidays, visiting grandparents and ill-advised trips to visit the AS Midlands Massive.

 

I like a bit of poke, but am not daft enough to expect set-your-trousers-alight performance. 

 

Which one?