Anyone wishing for an electric car for Christmas?

[Negative Creep]

I dread to think how much that will cost, or who would pick up the bill

[Inspector Morose]

I bet the major changes in transport over the centuries cost a fair packet too but it didn't stop them otherwise we'd still be going around on horsey horses as they are "good enough" and the cheaper option compared to the new fanged combustion contraptions.

 

We really must get away from this culture of cost is king if we really want to change. Conservatism, complacency and mediocrity will always win otherwise.

[catsinthewelder]

I don't mean to sound all Daily Mail but I can't believe that contactless charging isn't going to prove harmful in a similar way to using mobile phones too much.

 

I'd love an electric car,  the Cherry very rarely does more than 50 miles a day. 

 

 

The other thing that always seems to be conveniently forgotten is that you need a driveway or dedicated parking space to charge one, which the majority of people in city centres do not have/ The last government's policy was to deliberately make too few spaces in new builds to "encourage" people to give upo cars. Naturally no one did this and there's just parking chaos everywhere. So where would all these charging points go?

 

 

Once the technology becomes established the free charge points will vanish fairly sharply.  Most urban roads have streetlights and parking meters,  it wouldn't take much technology to add charging points to the meters with the council raking in the extra cash by charging more for the leccy than they pay for it.

[320touring]

That 7 day test drive for the leaf looks good.

 

Need to get my licence dug out

[Negative Creep]

Also, seeing as EVs are being touted as great city cars then just having contactless charging on major roads or motorways would defeat the point. If too many people switch to EVs the Government will loose money, so it will raise it which will again put people off. Or raise the price of electricity which will hurt everyone for the benefit of a few.

[Inspector Morose]

True, it would only work with a radical change in the way that we pay to use the car. I see RFL abolished and motorways and trunk roads becoming toll roads to pay for the "fuel" top ups, the power would be bought by the highways agency, they add a bit to pay for the infrastructure and maintenance so that a status quo is reached. Obviously cars would not need to use these roads to top up, giving the whole scheme a touch of competition to keep prices realistic. As no other fuel would be purchased, the total cost could be balanced out over time. This would then give battery developers the opportunity to develop batteries that could last the life of the car instead of trying to cram more and more capacity into the cells.

 

I started with the problem of battery capacity and life preventing the electric car being seen as a true replacement of the internal combustion car and tried to see if there was a way around it using technology that is progressing fairly rapidly. I'm probably way off but it's exercising the grey cells at least.

[cort16]

A guy at work has a leaf and he left for a meeting late on a full charge so leaned on it a bit to get going and saw his range crash from 80 to 40 miles, which wasnt enough to get back from the meeting. Luckily there was a charging point were he was going .

 

 

In the States tesla are putting money into infrastructure, which which is half the battle when you can do a decent recharge in 20 mins.

[DS20]

A 20-minute recharge is good news for those (like me) who regularly do v long journeys by car, but it comes with difficulties - first, the pressure on the local electricity network (not a problem if only a few are doing 20-minute recharges, but more difficult the more people have access to machines like this); and, second, repeated quick recharges knock the stuffing out of the vehicle's battery, reducing the number of useful charge/discharge cycles it has, and therefore its operational lifespan.

 

I honestly don't think that batteries will be suitable for extra-urban driving for decades; using electricity to produce hydrogen (see the Honda plant at Swindon) and methane, or to synthesise petrol and diesel (see Audi's work in America) is a simpler answer to long-distance journeys. It's a bit perverse to insist on battery-powered everything; a slightly different example being that I'm sure I could convert my washing machine to run on a small petrol or diesel engine, but what would be the point? Electricity is very good for stationary applications, but distinctly compromised if you want to be mobile.

 

And don't get me started on the environmental cost of manufacturing lithium batteries. It's on a level with the destruction caused by exploiting tar sands - on a far smaller scale at present, but ramping up as we all want moar computers, smartphones, Nissan Twizzys and so on.

[dollywobbler]

Tesla is also boosting the infrastructure in Europe. Currently nine superchargers in the UK, five of which are in London. Aiming for 15 by the end of this year, with more to come next year. 

 

I'm getting a Nissan e-NV200 to play with next week, which is going to include a roadtrip to Devon. In a van with a claimed range of 100 miles (which'll be 60 in reality I suspect). Should be interesting.

[DS20]

The more superchargers (and similar), greater pressure on the grid, and more money needed to upgrade the grid and make good. This is an expensive business; hydrogen, synthesised methane, petrol and diesel is simpler, more convenient, and I wouldn't be surprised, cheaper.

[dollywobbler]

Hydrogen isn't free - that takes huge amounts of electricity to produce, as does petrol and diesel come to think of it when it comes to refining. Worrying about electricity capacity is a valid concern though, but it's one that exists even without the electric car. 

[Tayne]

 

 

I'm getting a Nissan e-NV200 to play with next week, which is going to include a roadtrip to Devon. In a van with a claimed range of 100 miles (which'll be 60 in reality I suspect). Should be interesting.

 

Now I want to read about that.

[DS20]

Hydrogen certainly isn't free  The Honda plant at Swindon is manufacturing it at semi-commercial quantities (enough for their own use, and the use of some of Swindon Borough Council's vehicles), using solar-generated electricity, and is selling it at about £6 per kilogram.  To put that into some sort of useful perspective, a Honda FCX takes about 4kg of Hydrogen from empty, and will do nearly 300 miles on that tank.  So - a little cheaper than petrol / diesel for the same amount of range (probably because there's not a punitive duty applied, as there is for petrol and diesel), and more expensive than electricity from the grid - on the understanding that £3 worth of charge will get you about 100 miles.  If Hydrogen were used on a larger scale, I imagine the unit cost would fall somewhat, whereas electricity from the grid is unlikely to get much cheaper, because economies of scale have already happened, and the government has agreed bulk prices to entice generators to put money into new offshore wind and new nuclear (Hinkley Point C).  

[cort16]

Could you not get your hands in a twizy van ?

[dollywobbler]

I'm not sure I'd even want to!

[cort16]

You'd be dissapointed if you'd booked it to move house

 

[Pillock]

 

Common as muck, these 'leccy cars. These two were just knocking about in PC World's car park today.

[jonny69]

I see my local cops have got a Leaf for their knockabout panda car. Doubt they use it for car chases etc but I guess there's no reason why not? They could always get a Nismo version for that

[Matt]

In the States tesla are putting money into infrastructure, which which is half the battle when you can do a decent recharge in 20 mins.

 

I think they've started here too, the M6 Tebay services has not an EV charging station but a Tesla charging station.

[rml2345]

There are four charging points locally (two at the local ASDA and two in Bathgate) and I've yet to see an electric car use any of them. The council have a few of those PSA/Mitsubishi efforts but numbers are otherwise low. Either the good folks of central Scotland are all driving Volvos, or the electric car is yet to make a big impact.

I quite fancy a poke about at one of those Leafs though to see what all the fuss is about.

I think contactless charging will have some sort of future with EVs. Recent developments in electric bus tech favour some sort of boost charging using either a roof mounted pantograph that extends like a sort of massive plug or contactless charging at stops.

[dollywobbler]

Nissan are offering seven day test drives of the Leaf at the moment. Just saying. Prolly best turn up in your nicest Volvo though...

 

I've got my e-NV200 which is like a Leaf-powered van. Horrible driving position, but still enjoying the electric novelty. Currently plugged in so I can turn the heating on before heading out later, without harming the range. Putting the heater on instantly takes 10 miles off the estimated range! (when nearly fully charged).

[rml2345]

Nissan are offering seven day test drives of the Leaf at the moment. Just saying. Prolly best turn up in your nicest Volvo though...

 

I've only got one Volvo and it's still not the nicest Volvo... Still! In for a penny and all that. 

[dollywobbler]

 

Range anxiety. I CAN HAZ IT! We got home with 11 miles remaining. Every hill just eats miles! It was down to nine miles at one point. Couldn't turn the air con off (which saves miles) because the thing just steams up (especially with four of us aboard). Had to resort to driving like I drive a minibus. Smoothly and max 50mph to ensure we got home. I think Wednesday's 200-mile trek could be rather stressful. 

 

Fortunately, I'd plugged it in for an hour before we set off. This allowed me to demist the car initially while drawing from the house's electricity rather than the battery. Total miles covered today = 60, with the one hour charge adding about 10 miles to that total. Not encouraging!

[Inspector Morose]

Just tickles me that Nissans official home charging point supplier is British GAS!

[danthecapriman]

That really is the trouble with these electric cars, the range isn't good enough and you worry about things you take for granted in a (proper!) car like using the heating or aircon or that you probably shouldn't go out later in the evening as using the headlights might mean I'll run out of juice and die of exposure during the night!

 

It says it all for me that I don't have any worries at all using a 7.0 V8 automatic in a very big heavy old car, in these days of mpg concern and rip off petrol prices. Yet, I just couldn't and wouldn't trust the same out of a brand new Nissan Leaf (or similar), in spite of the actual running costs, they just don't seem convenient. It just shows how primitive and backwards they are when it comes down to it. A bit like in the early days of internal combustion engines when you could only buy petrol at certain chemists etc, and regular petrol stations just didn't exist. It's like a backwards step in some respects!

Admittedly, I'm a die hard internal combustion engine fan and would rather give up my driving licence than use an electric car! So I'm most probably missing the point entirely!

I get that you've got to start somewhere, somehow and I don't doubt, however that they are the future of personal transport and will have their day. But that seems a long way off right now. I still think Petrol and Diesel engines still have a lot of life in them yet, just in either hybrids or small capacity high efficiency form.

 

Best of luck with it though DW, it's interesting to see how you get on with it.

[rml2345]

Could you not tow one of those roadside generators around with a Leaf and just plug it into that? It would save a fair bit of worry. Admittedly it does defeat the purpose somewhat...

[cort16]

That's basically what the BMW i3 and Vauxhall Ampera have in them. The range extender is basically an Aldi £149.99 petrol generator hidden in the boot. 

BMW made the right choice by making it an option as it gives you that extra 100 miles or so should you run out of charge.

 

I'm surprised Nissan haven't look at fitting an range extender to the LEAF as it answers a lot of the range questions. Maybe by doing that it looks like they're admitting defeat.

 

I'm all for them if the range is increased, charging time brought down and the charging points are more available then I'd have no problems with an electric car. Anythings better than running a diesel. YUK

[dollywobbler]

Range extenders aren't ideal though. As an interim fix, maybe but otherwise, you're either driving an electric car that's having to lug an engine around, or an engine-powered car with the electric gubbins to haul around. Which is why if you run an i3 just on the engine, you're apparently going to get 35mpg. From a 9 litre fuel tank or whatever it is. 

 

Battery tech is moving forwards all the time. It isn't good enough yet, unless you can afford a Tesla, but give it a couple more years and it will be. What's interesting is how you start enjoying going downhill. It's so wasteful in a petrol car! I barely have to brake in this - I just let it recharge the batteries as I go. 

 

Anyway, off for more of a play now. 

[KruJoe]

So does it just maintain the speed you leave it at?

I mean does it continue at the speed it was going when you lift off the pedals?

[Tayne]

The hybrid Panamera I tried switched the engine off when I went downhill, it was disconcerting at first but then I got DW's feeling of pleasure at using gravity to extend range or get some "free" mileage.

It maintained the same speed but I'd pulled my foot back slightly off the throttle.