Driving pre 1970 cars on...

[warren t claim]

I've never understood that taxi rule. Is it really such a ballache to put a belt on? I always belt-up in the minibus, even when I'm effectively multi-dropping passengers. Given that most injuries (not deaths) occur on urban roads, it seems a bit odd. Not sure what the rules in Mallorca are now, but last time I visited, seatbelts were not legally required in town. Also odd!

I can assure you that having a few coked up pissheads kicking off behind you would make you understand.

[dollywobbler]

Fair point! Not an issue with the elderly folk on our buses. We have a strict 'no coke' rule.

[scooters]

One of the things I like about my XJ40 is that it was one of the safest cars of its generation. They're solid old things. I'm sure it will be less strong and less safe than a modern equivalent, but I'm not sure modern cars are quite so indestructible as many of their tailgaiting owners believe. Suffer a major accident at full motorway speed and you're most likely skewered in anything.

 

Long ago I was a passenger in a car in Italy, waiting in standing traffic on a motorway. The car in the lane next to us was a Mk3 Ford Escort. It would have been a fairly new car at the time. For some reason, the driver of a Mercedes W126 S Class didn't notice that the Escort in front of him had stopped and drove into the back of it without slowing. There was nowhere for the Escort's driver to go, whether he had seen the Mercedes or not.

 

The 'S' Class hit the Escort so hard it ploughed right through the car, crushing it. The car was so damaged, it is inconceivable to me that anyone could have survived in it. Someone told my father the driver and passenger of the Escort were dead and that the driver of the Mercedes suffered only a broken leg (or foot?). I was a teenager at the time and decided there and then that I was never going to own a small car.

 

Equally though, I had a friend who once rolled his absolute flea pit death trap of an MG Midget on the M6 and walked away without a scratch. The car was disintegrating even before the accident, so there was not much left after he stuffed it into a crash barrier, then rolled it. He blamed mechanical failure (which was fully believable). I think he fell asleep!

 

On a slight tangent, I picked someone up from the airport recently, fairly late at night, which involved driving down an 'A' road with a 60 mph limit. The road isn't particularly straight, so I was doing about 50-odd. I came up behind a newish Audi diesel thing which was travelling very slowly indeed. Twenty odd. After about a mile of this, I reached a long, straight bit of road and decided to pass him. When I was parallel, he floored it. I let him go, pulling in behind him. He then braked, dropping his speed back to twenty odd. I followed him at this speed for about two miles to the motorway junction.

 

At the junction for the motorway, he made the traffic lights, whilst I had to stop since they had turned to red. A couple of minutes later I saw the same Audi on the motorway, doing about 50 in the inside lane. I attempted to pass him in the middle lane, since even at night, I don't think 50 mph is fast enough on the motorway. Again he floored the accelerator and having more power/performance than me, undertook my car at quite a rate. I pulled in behind him; I had no desire to race and my junction was only a mile or two down the motorway in any event. Predictably, he again slowed down to 50-odd. Isn't this strange!

Fucking idiot was looking for a race very dangerous. I had a similar in Scotland 2 years ago with some ned in a subaru. Simply called the police and gave his number. turns out I was the 2nd person that night to report him for this. Report went to fiscal who prosecuted him for dangerous driving. Section 2. Ned pled guilty and the Sheriff disqualified him for 12 months and fined him 2000.

[overrun]

I drive my mk3 Escort, knowing that it has the structural rigidity of a corned beef tin and if anything were to happen,I will receive a lap dance from the engine.

 

 

So, despite front and rear seat belts, I treat it as the potential death-trap it is.

 

The brakes are also woeful. If I am on the motorway and the traffic in front drops anchor, it has been known to cause twitchy bum moments - even after leaving a massive gap.

[Crusty Sills]

Being a Retained Fire fighter I have been to my share of RTC's some very minor, some fatal.

I was told in training that the problem is becoming cars being to safe, not just the complacency of airbags, ABS and traction control but there are 3 motions to a collision;

Hard object to Hard object Eg car to barrier

Soft object to Hard object Eg face to steering wheel

and Soft object to Soft object Eg internal organs bouncing around inside you.

The last one being the biggest problem.

 

This is to say that although we have stronger, stiffer vehicles which stop and handle better you can't stop the human body from moving in it's entirety! "An object in motion tends to stay in motion"

where as before people got thrown through windscreens now they stay put whilst all the soft bits inside damaged.

Cars are stronger yes, but to the point where the only thing that moves now are the occupants inside a protected box.

 

Of course seat belts work and prevent a huge amount of death and serious injury but you can't take away the human element of driving, meaning people make mistakes, sometimes very costly and dangerous.

I think being drivers of older cars we and the classic car community are more aware of the dangers that exist knowing our vehicles are not designed with the same regulations as cars have been in the last 15 years or so.

 

Unfortunately not all on the roads are as considerate, attentive or forward thinking.

[scooters]

Very good post crusty.

[panhard65]

I saw on the news last night that they are going to allow driverless cars onto the road. Is it just me who thinks this is a good idea ? They will be perfect for the school run so yummy mummy's can apply their make up without having to worry about actual driving any more. Let all the morons who see driving as a chore have the driverless cars whilst those of us that actually enjoy driving have proper cars safe in the knowledge that we are less likely to get hit by some twat in an Audi texting his mates whilst eating a sausage roll.

[Lukas]

Driverless cars will be great, if it works. I´ll even use one myself for long Autobahn-trips.

 

Reading the newspaper, working on the laptop, drinking a glass of juice...Like riding a train, just without the nerv-wrecking folks that are in the train too.

[dollywobbler]

I hate the idea of driverless cars. After all, how often does my computer crash?

[plasticvandan]

Having driven many reliants long distances on the motorways,including some pretty awful Regals,id be a nervous wreck if i thought about the crash consequences!

[Bren]

The police no longer call collisions accidents because it implies there is nobody at fault when there is a "human" factor in every incident.

 

We can question the safety of old cars all day, I think the biggest problem is the attitude of drivers. In short, fucking awful in most cases. People suddenly grow a pair behind the wheel of a vehicle, the same people would cross the road if they saw someone getting a kicking. Somebody near me just found guilty of murder for running somebody over in a HGV following an argument.

 

Just because your latest new fangled shit has a NCAP 5 star rating and ABS / Electronic stability protection doesnt mean you can take unnecessary chances - however a great deal of brainwashed fucktards seem to believe they can.

 

For me personally, the biggest learing experience I have had was learning to ride a motorbike - I learnt the definition of the word defensive.

[CortinaDave]

I find people give me a lot less grief in the MG ZT or in my previous Saab than smaller cars. Have borrowed my mums micra a few times when mine has been off the road for whatever reason and couldn't believe how differently people drove around me.

 

It's a good little car and surprisingly swift for what it is - but other drivers are DETERMINED not to be behind you.. Whether that means doing a dangerous overtake or pulling out right in front of you at junctions. To me - that makes it a far more dangerous car than an old barge.

[Squire_Dawson]

Yes, many of us have served our time on two wheels, and it would be a good thing if all people did this before getting in a car.

[Richard]

I think everyone should serve time on two wheels. They kind of did until legislation was introduced to discourage it. Now even motorcyclists don't really serve time on two wheels before being let loose.

[Angrydicky]

My 1953 Austin Somerset doesn't have seatbelts, airbags, ABS, crumple zones or an NCAP safety certificate. It does have toughened glass, drum brakes, and a steering box mounted right at the front of the car, so in the event of a major frontal collision the whole steering column, plus the steering wheel, is forced straight into the drivers chest. Have seen the results of an Austin Hampshire involved in a major accident, the results weren't pretty.

However, I trust my driving skills enough to be able to avoid most situations. I drive defensively, knowing that if I was in an accident in this car I probably wouldn't be getting out without serious injuries. It does have flashing indicators (as of this week) as I've fitted a towbar and need flashers for the trailer electrics. For several months I've been driving with just trafficators and a small warning sticker in the back window.

Driving cars this age on modern roads is definitely comparable to riding motorcycles. Everyone who does it knows the risks and tends to develop much better road skills as a result.

[scooters]

My 1953 Austin Somerset doesn't have seatbelts, airbags, ABS, crumple zones or an NCAP safety certificate. It does have toughened glass, drum brakes, and a steering box mounted right at the front of the car, so in the event of a major frontal collision the whole steering column, plus the steering wheel, is forced straight into the drivers chest. Have seen the results of an Austin Hampshire involved in a major accident, the results weren't pretty.

However, I trust my driving skills enough to be able to avoid most situations. I drive defensively, knowing that if I was in an accident in this car I probably wouldn't be getting out without serious injuries. It does have flashing indicators (as of this week) as I've fitted a towbar and need flashers for the trailer electrics. For several months I've been driving with just trafficators and a small warning sticker in the back window.

Driving cars this age on modern roads is definitely comparable to riding motorcycles. Everyone who does it knows the risks and tends to develop much better road skills as a result.

 

I think you can buy a collapsible steering wheel column for these - there is a generic one - I think Fuzz bunged one in  Dart once

[Justin Case]

Don't forget that there are about 30 serious injury  and 300 minor injury accidents for every fatal one (these figures are for industrial accidents but the road accident figures are similar) I would always prefer a newer classic because not only is primary safety (brakes, handling etc) better, but so is secondary safety (seatbelts, deformable structures, etc) The likelihood of  bruised ribs rather than broken ones in  a moderate accident is a more important factor than what would happen if 44 tonnes of Latvian Volvo Globetrotter rear-ended me while I was stuck in a motorway traffic jam.

 

[scooters]

I saw on the news last night that they are going to allow driverless cars onto the road. Is it just me who thinks this is a good idea ? They will be perfect for the school run so yummy mummy's can apply their make up without having to worry about actual driving any more. Let all the morons who see driving as a chore have the driverless cars whilst those of us that actually enjoy driving have proper cars safe in the knowledge that we are less likely to get hit by some twat in an Audi texting his mates whilst eating a sausage roll.

Today programme concluded that practical ones were decades away but the change in legislation is required to ensure the technology reach the required standards.

I could see how it could work on the motorway. .ie you have a lane that is specifically for driverless cars but in town? Can't see it evar working

[Albert Ross]

I drove home from a Wedding tonight. Not a long journey, and it involved going through Doncaster. Young lad in front was super keen to beat everyone else to each junction. SO keen, that he went through a red light. He stopped in the middle of the junction, as an approaching Bus didn't give him any room. I followed him for a further mile, him under and overtaking everything. I ended up next to him at a major junction. I cast a glance over to him as I pulled up (I was in my Dark Blue V50) Did he think I was Plod? I was wearing a black cap and a blue button up shirt. He opened his passenger window, and said "What the fuck's up like??" My response, said loud and clear, was "Calm down" His response? "I am fucking calm!" (Screamed) The lights turned green, we went our separate ways. I wonder what he learnt.....

[barefoot]

...there are 3 motions to a collision;

Hard object to Hard object Eg car to barrier

Soft object to Hard object Eg face to steering wheel

and Soft object to Soft object Eg internal organs bouncing around inside you.

The last one being the biggest problem.

 

This is Ralph Nader's, 'it's the third impact that will kill you'.

 

I drive a t2.

I sometimes wonder if, in the event of impending collision, I'd be safer jumping out of my seat and making a run for the back rather than sitting there right at the front, exposed to buggery and pushing on the rather feeble brakes.

[forddeliveryboy]

Driverless cars will be great, if it works. I´ll even use one myself for long Autobahn-trips.

 

Reading the newspaper, working on the laptop, drinking a glass of juice...Like riding a train, just without the nerv-wrecking folks that are in the train too.

 

I'd use one/the app for my car for navigating a city with lots of congestion, multiple lanes, confusing junctions and high traffic density. But out on the open road, there's no chance I would hand over to anything else other than my brain! Love driving too much. If I wanted to do work on a long journey, I'd take the train.

 

..there are 3 motions to a collision;

Hard object to Hard object Eg car to barrier

Soft object to Hard object Eg face to steering wheel

and Soft object to Soft object Eg internal organs bouncing around inside you.

The last one being the biggest problem.

 

This is to say that although we have stronger, stiffer vehicles which stop and handle better you can't stop the human body from moving in it's entirety! "An object in motion tends to stay in motion"

where as before people got thrown through windscreens now they stay put whilst all the soft bits inside damaged.

Cars are stronger yes, but to the point where the only thing that moves now are the occupants inside a protected box.

 

Of course seat belts work and prevent a huge amount of death and serious injury but you can't take away the human element of driving, meaning people make mistakes, sometimes very costly and dangerous.

I think being drivers of older cars we and the classic car community are more aware of the dangers that exist knowing our vehicles are not designed with the same regulations as cars have been in the last 15 years or so.

 

Unfortunately not all on the roads are as considerate, attentive or forward thinking.

 

It's good to read so much common sense. I think some of the stronger cars in the past survived almost intact after relatively low-speed crashes, but their occupants' internal structure, wiring and plumbing had been fatally rearranged.

 

The argument for a long vehicle makes sense, where the driver is well back from the start of the impact - so long as the structure collapses progressively. But to what speed/force can you make it safe before the more jelly-like occupants suffer fatal internal damage?

 

I see one massive problem with many modern cars, the suspension. Because it's cheap and can be made to work acceptably well, MacPherson struts are popular. The bigger the car, the bigger this assembly needs to be. The whole thing needs to be located at its upper end into as strong as possible bit of shell. Yet in an offset frontal, the stronger and heavier this whole assembly is, and the better it's located in the shell, the more of a problem it becomes as a killer. Before shell bulkheads and A-posts were strengthened to what they are today, the strut assembly and other bits would often end up sitting where the driver had been, in a bad crash. It's still a problem, today, though less so. But in the wrong sort of crash, it's not a good thing to have between you and the impact. Remember, the NCAP is a very predicatble test, and manufacturers can make the best of it.

 

Far better that suspension components, which need to be strong and stiffly located aren't something for the over-burdened monocoque to has to prevent reaching the front seat occupant zone. Some cars have even managed to use suspension bits as part of their general crashworthiness, using large wheels as the punchbag to transfer impacts away from the passenger cell to the stronger chassis elements of the car, via suspension arms.

 

The BMW i3 appears to use a very clever, if not novel, approach to achieving crash-worthiness, with its lightweight shell, stiff chassis and tall, narrow wheels. I think that's the first time I've ever praised a modern BM.

[forddeliveryboy]

 

Unfortunately not all on the roads are as considerate, attentive or forward thinking.

 

I hugely enjoyed seeing a 20s Bentley (open) in the fast lane of a motorway, perhaps 10 years ago. It had a full load of passengers and was storming along at 95+ in the outside lane, pushing white can and 5-series drivers aside - like a whale in a shoal of minnows. It was doing so by intimidation, which was quite a sight. Safe for the Bentley's occupants? Maybe no less so than the amounts of fine wine they may have enjoyed later that evening.

 

It was good to see the roles reversed - a 90 year old scything through aggressive, fast-moving modern traffic. I must add it was being driven impeccably, other than exceeding the speed limit (who else obeys this in good conditions on a motorway?) by a reasonable margin.

[wuvvum]

 

I know the 2CV's stoppers have saved me from trouble a few times. (though they've also caused it - a Mondeo smashed into the 2CV as it didn't expect me to stop that quickly when carved up by a truck on a roundabout).

 

Dollywobbler, yesterday:

 

[Junkman]

Unfortunately not all on the roads are as considerate, attentive or forward thinking.

 

EFA.

[wuvvum]

 

On a slight tangent, I picked someone up from the airport recently, fairly late at night, which involved driving down an 'A' road with a 60 mph limit. The road isn't particularly straight, so I was doing about 50-odd. I came up behind a newish Audi diesel thing which was travelling very slowly indeed. Twenty odd. After about a mile of this, I reached a long, straight bit of road and decided to pass him. When I was parallel, he floored it. I let him go, pulling in behind him. He then braked, dropping his speed back to twenty odd. I followed him at this speed for about two miles to the motorway junction.

 

At the junction for the motorway, he made the traffic lights, whilst I had to stop since they had turned to red. A couple of minutes later I saw the same Audi on the motorway, doing about 50 in the inside lane. I attempted to pass him in the middle lane, since even at night, I don't think 50 mph is fast enough on the motorway. Again he floored the accelerator and having more power/performance than me, undertook my car at quite a rate. I pulled in behind him; I had no desire to race and my junction was only a mile or two down the motorway in any event. Predictably, he again slowed down to 50-odd. Isn't this strange!

 

See, it's the (omni)presence on the roads of cuntflaps like this that make the Rover of Doom so amusing to own (when it's running right).  By the time the VAGina has realised that this battered, multi-coloured shitheap can actually accelerate, I've usually had time to get past.

 

I sometimes ponder taking it to the next level - maybe by finding an accident-damaged 620ti and dropping the mechanical bits into a 200 bodyshell, that should make for quite a beastie.  Or maybe tracking down a battered old '70s Volvo 245 and fitting a tuned B230ET.  Then I realise that such shenanigans are almost certainly way beyond my mediocre chod-fettling capabilities.

[garethj]

I came across the same thing about a month ago - some bloke doing 20mph in a 60 limit.  He was in a 1990s BMW 3 series, not a 1910 Horsey Horseless so it's not as if he was on the ragged edge.

 

The only thing I can conclude from someone like that is they've either just taken a lot of drugs or are mentally unhinged for some other reason.  Someone that unpredictable on the road is a bit scary I think.