Bus Shite

[LightBulbFun]

I knew of the Wearsider but what is the un-godly awful contraption next to it?! we need a puke emoticon on here I think!...

[busmansholiday]

I think (probably wrong) that HGVs were also allowed black and white plates until the last change but nobody actually did that. The Alexander Regent V I used to be involved in had backlighted rear black and white reg plates. Only problem I remember was the technicallity that your not allowed to display white lights to the rear. Think there was some exemption in one of the rules allowing this.

As for Leyland Nationals, the less the better!

[busmansholiday]

The thing to the left is the Tynesider. A 27 foot PD2 rear entrance that was rebuilt to see what could be done in terms of one man operation. Not only have I driven it (semi auto but no power steering ) it was preserved last time I knew.

Somewhere I have a picture of it on it's first outing at a bus rallly in 1972/3 ish.

[Inspector Morose]

As for Leyland Nationals, the less the better!

You are dead to me.

[Inspector Morose]

Not only have I driven it (semi auto but no power steering )

You are now more dead to me.

[LightBulbFun]

haha (liked for humor not National hate, I dont have much of an opinion either way on those... what does that make me to you then?  )

 

I once read that the Wearsider had some messed up steering linkages which made it a bit fun to drive apparently...

[mk2_craig]

One of the weird anomalies of the PSV world was that white on black number plates were permitted until the last style change, I believe. Although perfectly legal across the country, only London (and Edinburgh, I believe) perpetuated with this style.

The black painted aluminium plates had the numbers painted on, using a stencil set before the ubiquitous vinyl lettering took over.

I moved to Edinburgh in 1997 and there was still a batch of X-reg Atlanteans in service, these all had reflective white front plates but the backlit black rear plate as described.

 

Over in Dublin a few years later and there were lots of double deck buses built well into the 1990s with black rear plates, though presumably legislation was or is not necessarily identical to the UK.

[quicksilver]

That Mazda is epic. There can't even be many vans left so a PSV version must be unique now. Quite a few firms had them back in the day but they didn't last long and I've never seen one, nor even many photos of them.

[Felly Magic]

Nice to see another Robin Hood bodied Daily preserved, driven another preserved example belonging to friends of mine up north

[busmansholiday]

It's a close call as to which was the worst to drive, a Mk I National or the Tynesider.

 

MkI Nationals had absolutely no feel in the steering, and the early ones were shit scaring if the road was in any way damp. Plenty ended up in walls, ditches etc. I'd far rather have had a Swift, Panther or RE. The MkII was a better machine, but.

 

The Tynesider had an Atlantean dash system and wheel, but no power steering made it heavy. It's also odd having a bonnet sticking out in front of you.

 

I'll try not to get too upset about other people's views.

[Yoss]

Well, thanks for the replies about number plates. I've learnt something there. I just assumed it was LT being a law unto themselves again. My number plates are hand painted because I did it myself. The transfers started dissolving and it seemed the easiest way to re do them.

 

As for Nationals, I used to hate them at the time. The basic wipe clean interiors just seemed awful compared to our local Atlanteans. But these days I seem quite pleased to see them for some reason. A bit like songs you hated in the 80s seem to sound better when you hear them on the radio now. I guess it's because they remind you of your youth. But rose tinted, nostalgia etc... It only reminds of the good bits.

 

I liked the Mazda too. It was being largely ignored by the general bus cranks but it's only when you see one you realise you haven't seen one for years. I used to see a red normal van, F157 TRU every morning walking to work. Must be long gone now.

 

 

EDIT. Ha, just did an MOT check on the above van. Last MOT in 2006 has a very impressive failure list with excessive corrosion mentioned twelve times!

[Inspector Morose]

Mk1 nationals were indeed set up badly from the factory with over light steering and too much brake force applied to the (over egged) front shoes. BUT it was all adjustable and with a bit of nous, all of its bad habits could be tamed quite easily. The main issue was similar to the transition from steam to diesel on the railways. Bus engineers were used to adjusting by feel and back in the day, the large sledge hammer ruled over all, maybe apart from the oxy-acetylene torch. Nationals didn't respond well to this kind of treatment and what was a technicality complex machine (direct power assisted rack and pinion steering on a bus was a UK if not world first) could be spoilt by trying to maintain it like a panther or swift.

Nationals didn't suffer neglect well, unlike the more simple previous generation, and promptly failed to proceed or smother the streets in black smoke with amazing regularity. Leyland was, well, being Leyland and parts and tools to repair properly were scarce compelling the hard pressed engineers to push buses out that were not at their best.

Oh there were faults a plenty, but there were just as many with the Routemaster when first released and like this, they were overcome in time either by the factory (the phase 2 national was a far superior beast - the Mk 2, however was always a compromise plus build quality was never as good) or by engineering facilities that took the time to understand the bus properly. In a mixed fleet, however, this time and expertise was something that most cash starved companies could ill afford.

Come deregulation and timing meant the National became the go to cheap bus for the small independent who didn't have the time nor resources to maintain such a complex bus properly and so the Nationals reputation of a bad bus was further cemented into the minds of those who had to drive, ride or maintain them. There were a few exceptions and they succeeded where others failed in taming the beast but it was too late. The minds of many were set.

 

BMH, you do realise I'm just jealous about you having a shot at the Tynesider, don't you? It still is preserved and I nearly bought it many years back but just didn't have the funds at the time but I'd part with a few limbs to get it in "the book".

[sierraman]

Did any of the London Titans survive? MASS Transport had a dual door one until about 5 years ago.

[LightBulbFun]

 " but I'd part with a few limbs to get it in "the book". " for the Tynesider...

 

this truly is autoshite 

 

IIRC a few of the titans have survived I know T1 and T2 are persevered or so, I highly recommend you check out the Awesome ians bus stop website I have been reading and following his website since i was about 4... http://www.countrybus.org/Titan/Titan.html here is his page on the Titan there is a indvidual bus histories page too so you can see what each and everyone is up to

[busmansholiday]

I guessed jealousy was behind it, not many people have managed a go in it. As for that picture, I have an almost identical series of shots of those two together at that depot.

 

The one thing you can credit the MkI National with is the idea of a bus kneeling. South Yorkshire PTE fitted the feature to one, 88, after it hit a shop when it didn't go round a wet bend one evening. It even appeared on Tomorrow's World. Must have been about 1977.

[LightBulbFun]

I guessed jealousy was behind it, not many people have managed a go in it. As for that picture, I have an almost identical series of shots of those two together at that depot.

 

The one thing you can credit the MkI National with is the idea of a bus kneeling. South Yorkshire PTE fitted the feature to one, 88, after it hit a shop when it didn't go round a wet bend one evening. It even appeared on Tomorrow's World. Must have been about 1977.

 

nothing wrong with wanting a vehicle of any kind no matter how weird, trust me, my own Vehicular wish list would prolly make most people cry  (I prolly dont need to be saying this considring the forum we are communicating via   )

 

BTW hope you dont me being that 1 guy but London Transport had a kneeling Routemaster just before then http://www.countrybus.org/RM/RM7.html#top in 1975/78   (scroll to the bottom of the page for the details )

[Inspector Morose]

RM 116 did have the hydraulic suspension fitted but as far as I know, they didn't implement the kneeling setup. As per LT, the way the bus was to kneel was that a larger hydraulic cylinder was to be placed above the suspension cylinder thereby collapsing the rear suspension when fluid was allowed into the top one. The resulting jump at the rear when fluid was eventually released would be quite a sight!

116 had the active ride removed after about a year or so after wear in the suspension cylinders allowed copious amounts of fluid to escape.

 

Hydraulic systems were quite the thing at LT. It experimented with a complete hydraulic system for everything for the FRM and QRM projects. Brakes, suspension, doors, heater motors, gears and even wipers would be motored by hydraulics. The alternator was also to be hydraulically driven so that the alternator could be placed close to the batteries reducing voltage losses over long cable runs.

 

If you ever find the book 40 years with London Transport by Colin Curtis - it is a facinating insight into the experimental department of LT in it's heyday.

[busmansholiday]

I had a dig in my archives about SYPTE 88. Turns out it was new in July 1975, seriously lost an argument with a tree in October 1975 and was off the road for over 6 months. It was fitted with the kneeling system and was on Tomorrow's World in June 1976 (being kept overnight at Chiswick) but the Traffic Commissioners wouldn't let them use the kneeling feature in service until September 1976.

 

As for LT and hydraulics, they converted a DMS to hydraulic brakes as it was trialed in Sheffield on the 95 route.

[Felly Magic]

Later on on TW, an SYPTE Dennis Detonator was on the screen with the short lived Maxwell gearbox. There are quite a few Titans in preservation, and I think they missed a golden opportunity with that, with the IFS, it could have easily been made as a low floor bus, Volvo still use a very similar set up in their low floor bus range today, so clearly Leyland did something right, the Titan went down like a lead brick though with operators, the inflexibility of it, being full height only, and integral put customers off, plus the unrest involving it, with orders being cancelled, and Leyland to do a rapid rethink, and bring out the less complex Olympian, which isn't a bad old tub really, Volvo refined the driving experience with better ergonomics, but somehow made the suspension softer, so they wallowed much more when hooning

[Inspector Morose]

A lot of the Leyland design engineers went to Volvo after the takeover hence when looking at Volvos IFS you'll see much the same as the Titan. A good percentage of the B7 low floor decker was Leyland design.

When the Volvoisation of the Olympian took place, they managed to kill the chassis member quality and protection - just about every Volvo Olympian I've been under hid some pretty scary chassis rot not seen in the older Leyland product. And don't talk to me about Volvos Z cam brakes!

The Titan was Leylands double deck National. They tried the same trick of replacing every model in their repertoire with one standard bus but without a large customer willing to take it on. Plus the industrial strife at Park Royal who's workforce hated the idea of buses being built by.semi-skilled labour really killed it for everyone who'd ordered trial batches. ECW was touted as an alternative builder after the Park Royal fiasco but this eventually came to nought. Being a full height bus limited the marked even more and there was little chance of large export orders as few countries ran double deck fleets. Good bus that it was, it was a bus too far. Too complex for the needs of most (shades of National again), inflexible specification and unable to meet what little demand there was. It took the chassis designers at Bristol to provide the solution in the B45 with its son of FLF Lodekka perimeter frame and much simplified layout and componentry. The bonus was that it was a chassis that could support full or low height bodies of the operators choosing. The Olympian won, not by being the better bus but by being what the customer wanted. Even then there was resistance by operators, many still choosing the ancient Atlantean for orders until it was no longer available in the UK.

The U.K. has always been hugely conservative in its bus technology compared to western Europe. In the 1960s many European bus drivers had air sprung integrals with powerful engines mounted out of the way of the driver and passengers, driving through fully automatic gearboxes and power steering while the UK was still subjecting theirs to low powered engines right by the side of the driver, crash gearboxes, no power steering and all suspended on huge heavy cart springs - all for the benefit of simplicity and economy of operation and screw the poor passenger. Just by that measure alone, it's no wonder that bus travel has had such a poor reputation and the but of many a joke for years.

[busmansholiday]

I remember being in Paris in about 1971 and seeing their trial with double decks ( I do have a picture in b&w somewhere). Front engined, horizontally mounted under the driver (virtually two Saviems on top of each other), auto box, etc etc. We had only stopped producing Routemaster, FLFs, PDs and Regents three years before.

[jon.k]

I know there's loads of footage like this about, but this one had a good selection of bus and car chod, I thought.

 

[Yoss]

Excellent. Good Scottish weather too.

[Felly Magic]

I used to regularly drive an F reg ex Lothian R type Oilican, and the bodywork leaked badly in the rain, one side of the upper deck saloon lights didn't work due to them being fried. If it was parked outside overnight, and it pished it down, the upper deck floor would be soaking. 

[busmansholiday]

Found this old picture I took in good old black & white.

 

No prizes (I'm a Yorkshireman), but who's the first to identify the middle coach, the outside ones are easy.

 

Just to piss you off I've blanked out the reg to stop you looking at bus lists on the web.

 

[rml2345]

It's an MCW "Metropolitan" bodied Bedford VAM but which one I can't say.

[cms206]

I used to regularly drive an F reg ex Lothian R type Oilican, and the bodywork leaked badly in the rain, one side of the upper deck saloon lights didn't work due to them being fried. If it was parked outside overnight, and it pished it down, the upper deck floor would be soaking.

Have you ever driven anything that wasn't either fucked or given a twattish nickname?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[davidfowler2000]

I used to regularly drive an F reg ex Lothian R type Oilican, and the bodywork leaked badly in the rain

 

 

It's an Alexander. They do that. Most importantly with Alexander bodies that leak, they leak the water back out again unlike something like a Metropolitan which leaks in to ungalvanised steel box section and doesn't let the water back out.

[Inspector Morose]

MCW rot. Ugh. Yes let's design a body using "u" section channel steel painted pink with the lightest of coatings known to man then mount it so it resembles a body frame made up of guttering but don't allow any means of that nicely collected water to escape.

Been there, rebuilt that. Never again. Give me alloy framed Alexander's any day.

Whilst on the subject of Alexander's, was there someone at the factory who's job it was to put several rivet ends in the space between the roof skins on every bus built? I don't think I have never ridden or driven an Alexander that doesn't do that rattle rattle rattle as the bus corners, accelerates or brakes.

[busmansholiday]

It's an MCW "Metropolitan" bodied Bedford VAM but which one I can't say.

Bloody hell, that was quick. I thought i"d be struggling for correct answers.  It's actually HNK158G, photographed in the Castle Coach park in Southsea, round about 1971.