Bus Shite

[mk2_craig]

YR isn't it? Which would make it ex-London.

[cms206]

It was indeed YR; they were a cancelled order IIRC, three ended up in Singapore.

 

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[quicksilver]

YR isn't it? Which would make it ex-London.

IIRC they were cancelled order for Manchester, leased for 3 years by London Buses for the Bexleybus operation and then sold on. I think Busways snapped up most of them. A couple of others (913 and 926) used to appear at my school when owned by inMotion of Dunstable.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

YR isn't it? Which would make it ex-London.

Ah, so it is. Said Leyland dead in 2008.

[Felly Magic]

Oh dear an ECW B51 Leopard, how not to make a coach body, ECW blamed Leyland, Leyland blamed ECW, when both should have known better

[Zelandeth]

Oh dear an ECW B51 Leopard, how not to make a coach body, ECW blamed Leyland, Leyland blamed ECW, when both should have known better

 

I was wondering what on earth that was!

[Soap Distant]

Nobody blamed anybody. The B51 was a rebuild and update to the original ECW coach body based upon the original frame design. In fact the prototype (which still exists in preservation) was a rebuild of an existing coach. This is where it went awry. The rebuilt coach was a Bristol RE with a rear engine as the intended market was the rebuilding of RE coaches for certain NBC operators so no structural problems would become evident. However Leyland caught wind of this scheme and offered the operators Leopard and Tiger chassis at below the cost of the rebuilds. To throw a crumb to ECW Leyland used the bodybuilder to body these cut price chassis. Now,the Leopard and Tiger was mid engined and the ECW body was stresses for a rear engined design. Subsequently the rear end design of the body was just not strong enough and bodies were sent back to ECW en mass for rectification numerous times before the product was anywhere near useable.

Ah, but the previous body on the same frames as the B51 was used to body leopards too and they didn't have issues, did they?. Well, surprise surprise they did. In fact exactly the same issues as the later B51. There was a difference as on some bodies, the rear emergency door was much shorter than others and the smaller hole in the side helped the strength of the rear body no end. Unfortunately the rebuilt RE B51 was of the long emergency door variant and so the lesson learned before went unnoticed.

It's all a shame as the B51 body in rebuilt form was a great looking body that gave (eventually) little trouble. The stronger short door ECW body that the B51 body should have been based upon was good enough to be taken off its original chassis (leopard) and used to rebody an ex-midland red chassis.

[Felly Magic]

They argued about which plant would foot the bill for the warranty work, Leyland built shedloads of Leopards for stock to use up parts, but by then, Volvo had launched the B10M, and DAF's MB200 was pinching customers like Smith's Sheerings, so the Leopard was now very old hat, so they saw the B51 as a great excuse to shift them, and by then, the RE was massively outdated, no power steering, and nowhere near as powerful as rivals, many still had 6HLX's rated at just 150bhp, or Leyland 0.680s rated also at around 150bhp, so would all need their chassis massively updating, with PAS, and new engines. Imports were also starting to feature, especially the likes of Bova. ECW built the B51 on the cheap, from very low grade materials dictated by the price per unit, and thanks to GMPTE not telling them about the arse end issues, ECW were clueless that their design wasn't up to the job in hand, even windscreens fell out as the flimsy GRP frame failed, it showed up that all wasn't well in Lowestoft, even the stalwart VR was suffering from flooring woes, as water would flood in when the bus went through puddles. The B51 body was a typical case of a vehicle built down to the lowest possible price from low grade materials

[Soap Distant]

The REs due to be re-bodied were ex air sprung coaches converted to coil and to be fitted with Leyland power plus 0.680s rated at 200bhp. PAS was never an issue with the RE as the steering was sufficiently light unassisted (although the weight distribution of the chassis was never as bad as the rumours led people to believe). I have a copy of the specification sheets somewhere for the re-builds.

Leyland needed to shift chassis in the early 80s that's for sure, Volvo was starting to eat at its main core business and a good part of this was the withdrawal from the market of the AEC Reliance; many operators who bought them switched to Volvo or DAF, Leylands introduction of a Leopard with manual gearbox did nothing to appease the old AEC stalwarts . Leyland knew the B43 (Tiger) was in the wings and thought it just needed to fire fight.

GMPTE not releasing the details of modifications to the rear of the ECW bodied Leopards certainly didn't help matters with the structural problems that beset the B51 later on but ECW knew about the issues in the earlier body solved them then forgot all about it when building the B51.

Leaky floors? I've yet to find a body built at the same time as the VRs that did't leak like a sieve. MCW with it's dissolving body frames, East Lancs with, well, lots of things really as their fanatical desire to tailor build each bus individual to the whims of each operator meant that nothing was standard nor fitted together properly. Alexander was not immune with the inevitable rattles and major body weaknesses in the panoramic windowed double deck body amongst others. Put in to context, ECW was one of the better builders out there.

[Yoss]

Well that's an interesting few posts. I never knew any of that. Makes me even more pleased I own a Routemaster. Proves the point I was trying to make a couple of pages back (posts #1386 & #1391), when you lot were slating the RMs, better than I ever could. #trying not to feel too smug.

 

 

Of all the stuff you mentioned above I'm quite familiar with East Lancs stuff being Southampton born and bred. The Atlanteans were always a bit rattly even when new but it was interesting watching SCT/CityBus/First trying to keep them running. First these little angle brackets started appearing around the window pillars, riveted to the aluminium frames either side. Then, upstairs at the front, big bits of angled ally were riveted between the top of the bulkhead and the front window frame.

 

Best of all when these external tree deflectors on the front nearside upper deck became fashionable on other buses it gave CityBus an idea. They got bits of handrail from scrap buses (and you could see it was old handrail when you were sat upstairs because it had that diamond pattern in it) bent one end ninety degrees and fixed one end to the roof framework behind the fibreglass roof dome and the other end just under the front window. Hey presto what looked like a tree deflector was actually holding the roof on. The game was given away somewhat when they started fitting them to the offside as well. Of course tree deflectors weren't necessary when the buses were still council owned because the same council were responsible for cutting the trees back but that's another rant for another time.

 

Back to the downstairs of our Atlanteans and you could see the whole staircase and luggage area over the nearside front wheel moving independently of the rest of the bus. Quality. Bet it didn't take too much effort to break them up when they got to Barnsley.

 

Having said all that, I was rather fond of them.

[Soap Distant]

Sthuctural issues were not the sole province of east lancs but they were up there with the best of them! Reading back on the routemaster bashing rather proves the point. Why bother with a tricky restoration of a flawed design when slapping LT red on a superannuated, ex Scottish back loader and bobs your fathers brother. Those who don't toe the line and does something different get slated and shunned. That's the way of preservation as I see it.

[Felly Magic]

NBC looked at the costs involved, brand new chassis were cheaper than the cost of stripping down and refurbishing the RE's, plus they qualified for bus grant, so you cannot blame them for taking the Leopard option, plus Bristol was on life support, and many spares were already becoming unobtanium. ECW was under huge pressure from parent Leyland to slash costs, so cheaper, thinner materials were being used, and this was biting them very firmly on the arse, the RE/LH family of bodies did suffer quite badly from nose droop too, so it is a bit of bunk really that they made decent quality vehicles, when in reality, they were no better than anyone else, there are just a lot of rose tinted memories, and they always seemed to run into problems with windscreens, the high driving position Atlanteans causing the same issue as early flat front RE & LHs, the top of the screen was in the driver's eyeline, so they had to be driven with a stoop

[Soap Distant]

Strange. I ran a small fleet of REs in the early 90s and I found:

 

A) spares were not really difficult to obtain.

ECW bodies were far better than the rest available, apart from maybe Marshall.

[Yoss]

A small fleet of REs in the early 90s? Wasn't this lot was it? Probably not, I think there were still lots of small companies still running REs then. There were several in Dorset as this little selection shows.

 

 

This was Blandford Bus. One of many small operators around Dorset. And like most of the others they ran different services every day of the week based on whenever market day was in the nearest town. Between them they managed to serve most villages once or twice a week. I've no idea if this is still possible.

 

Careful study of the timetable was necessary to try and make a day out of it. There was no point just turning up you could be waiting two days for a bus.

 

So we worked out an itinerary based on driving to Bere Regis. Where this arrived.

Ok, so not an RE but who wouldn't be over moon if an LH turned up on your bus now? I think we were a bit disappointed at the time but it's still a great bus for the rural lanes.

 

Arrival at Blandford.

 

Where this was waiting!

I don't even know who owned this. It seems to be on a Blandford local service.

 

But this was what we were waiting for. I love this picture.

 

And what's this?

My brain tells me it's also an RE with a different body but it was 25 years ago so it may not be. It may also belong to Damory Coaches as it has that sort of turquoise colour to it. They are now part of Wilts & Dorset and largely responsible for the demise of many of these smaller operators (allegedly, I should run that past my lawyers). Anyway this one says Pimperne on the board in the window which is only about five miles away.

 

 

In the coach park round the corner was this Bedford OB.

Belonging to another local company, Victory Tours of the delightfully named village of Sixpenny Handley (there are still some old signposts nearby that say '6d Handley' which our pre decimilisation readers might find mildly amusing). With another of their more contemporary coaches behind.

 

The LH is off again with added Meastro action.

 

This our next bus to Mappowder.

And that's the driver wandering off for her break.

 

And this is the bustling metropolitan terminus of Mappowder.

 

Now before we got on this I had noticed there was no return bus so we asked the driver if it came back empty and she said she had to do a school bus first. We asked (there were three of us) if we could tag along and she was fine with that. I can't see that being allowed now but I guess she could see we were just three harmless bus cranks. It was a primary school too and no-one even gave us a second glance. Perhaps it wasn't the first time somebody had asked.

 

Return to Bere Regis was by Wilts and Dorset VR.

[mk2_craig]

Looks like eight stud wheels on that K reg Duple coach, so almost certainly Bedford?

[Yoss]

Thanks. Like I say the memory is a bit hazy now and I would never have known that in the first place. Very well spotted too as the picture's not even that clear.

[quicksilver]

That looks like a totally different world so it's hard to believe it was only about 25 years ago. LNP 254K was a Bedford YRQ with a Duple Viceroy Express body and did indeed belong to Damory. It had a long life with them and survived long enough to be taken over by Wilts & Dorset, which is very good going as they weren't very well built and few lasted into the 1990s.

 

Oh, and the brown RE belonged to the Stanbridge & Critchel Bus Company, whoever the heck they were.

[Felly Magic]

Strange. I ran a small fleet of REs in the early 90s and I found:

 

A) spares were not really difficult to obtain.

ECW bodies were far better than the rest available, apart from maybe Marshall

 

Marshall had issues with corrosion, quite badly in many cases, ECW were fortunate in having a captive market due to who owned them, but really, by 1981, there was just simply too much capacity in the industry as a whole, and what Leyland should have done was closed Lowestoft & Roe at the same time as Bristol, as all these plants were in need of dire investment, and had a very militant workforce, and they had a state of the art factory lying all but idle as demand for the National evaporated. I think it would have made real sense to be honest using the Leyland trucks plant in Leyland for all commercial & PSV building, and ceased body building, it would have been far more cost effective than having factories all over the place, and Workington was created under very false pretences, which in reality shouldn't have been built in the first place. Alexander & Northern Counties & East Lancs would have been easily able to cope with what the market demanded at the time, it's a wonderful thing is hindsight. Also by 1981, Leyland finally had real competition, we had Dennis cleaning up the municipal sector, and MCW selling in quantity to the PTE & SBG, and in the coach sector, Volvo was leaving everyone for dead, with the versatile B10M. 

 

And when you look at the typical 1970s ECW product, it was very, very dated inside, small windows, with clinical panelling inside, and choosing olive drab & insipid shades of brown didn't help, on a cold, damp day, the inside of a VR or indeed an Olympian ECW is as inviting as a council lav, crap heating on both decks didn't help, and whoever came up with the interior layout of the dual door VR body should have been forced to ride on them, very, very passenger unfriendly. 

 

People have rose tinted specs when it comes to nostalgia

[Yoss]

That looks like a totally different world so it's hard to believe it was only about 25 years ago. LNP 254K was a Bedford YRQ with a Duple Viceroy Express body and did indeed belong to Damory. It had a long life with them and survived long enough to be taken over by Wilts & Dorset, which is very good going as they weren't very well built and few lasted into the 1990s.

 

Oh, and the brown RE belonged to the Stanbridge & Critchel Bus Company, whoever the heck they were.

That's why I come here. I learn stuff about pictures I took 25 years ago! I've never heard of Stanbridge and Critchel either but I put them in Google maps and found a Stanbridge and Crichel Moor and lake near each other just north of Wimborne so that makes sense.

 

 

I know the chap who runs Shaftesbury and District, mainly because he's always had ex London stuff in his fleet and he collects Triumph Dolomites. We once thought we'd pay him a surprise visit and turned up at some small Dorset village, I forget where now but I can still picture the pub in my mind, only to find an old coach from a completely different operator arrive. We asked where Roger was and the guy said he was on holiday.

 

Talking to this guy, and to Roger afterwards, it turns out all these little operators helped each other out rather than being in competition with each other. And it seemed very little money changed hands, it was more of a barter system. If you cover my route next Wednesday I'll do yours the week after, that sort of thing. I like the idea that that sort of world still existed until quite recently.

[Vantman]

[Yoss]

Was one old penny a lot for a timetable in 1940? It seems like it to me. It's not like it's their whole network, it's just Ashford Hastings. Couldn't you buy a fish supper, a night at the pictures and still have change for the bus home for 1d.

[rml2345]

With regard to ECW bodies, the VRT style was an evolution of the original aluminium framed bodies from the very early 50s and didn't seem to suffer from the structural maladies that some did so I don't think it's all nostalgia and if you think they were uninviting then half an hour on an Alexander AD would have you screaming for the door.

Interior finish was an operator matter so the blame for uninspired interior hues can be laid squarely at the champion of taste that was the NBC. ECW bodies for others were much cheerier with Eastern Scottish standardising on a cheery light blue for a time in the 60s and 70s.

The bus building industry had been artificially inflated by the bus grant throughout the late 1960s and 1970s so there's no doubt that there was excess capacity but the industry was movingeven then towards complete vehicles and Leyland would never have given up it's bodybuilding capacity without a fight, hence them shifting production of the Olympian body when ECW shut. Just abandoning the sector to Alexander, East Lancs and NCME would have also given MCW a big advantage over their rival.

[Soap Distant]

Also by 1981, Leyland finally had real competition, we had Dennis cleaning up the municipal sector, and MCW selling in quantity to the PTE & SBG, and in the coach sector, Volvo was leaving everyone for dead, with the versatile B10M

 

Bwahahahahaha!

Yes leyland didn't have the monopoly it once did but seriously?

In 1981 Dennis were selling penny numbers, admittedly better than the loline days but to say they were cleaning up the municipal marker is well wide of reality. MCW? Apart from London and WMPTE they were selling low figures to anybody else (but more than Dennis). SYPTE and GMPTE took a fair number but others only took them in tiny batches and most a good number didn't come back.

 

The B10M was not the holy grail that you make it out to be either. Early chassis suffered many problems and a good number of operators who still wanted the simplicity of the B58 and operators moved elsewhere around Europe. The main gains for the B10M were from operators who were changing from buying lightweights. Bedford and Ford could not be bodied with the heavy continental bodies that were becoming popular at the time (yes, a sort of keeping up with the Jones') the alternative was the leopard (seen as old fashioned) or the Europeans (Volvo, DAF and Scania in the main). Bova did well out of the movement away from the lightweight chassis too as their product was cheap to run and distinctive even though they rotted like no tomorrow.

 

Your last statement is just insulting to those who saw the developments from the inside first hand. To dismiss views opposing to yours as just nostalgia belies an ignorance to what actually went on.

[Zelandeth]

Never been a passenger on an RE that I'm aware of, nor a VR...which I'd love to rectify someday, especially if it's on a run up to some speed given the tendency for the drive line to be rather vocal.

 

I have driven one RE though, can't for the life of me remember which body was on it, but the thing went like the proverbial.  Unfortunately didn't stop half as well as it went and had well warped brake drums so tried to shake itself to pieces.  In fairness I think it had just been dragged out from under a tree where it had been sitting for many years.  Sounded lovely, sadly no photo as that was one victim of the great hard drive corruption of 2007 (now I have a rigid backup system!), but I do remember it was on an M plate and I'm pretty sure by sound alone was Gardner powered.

 

I've had the misfortune too to experience an early B10M with a full height Van Hool Alizee body on.  The Bedford YNT Duple Dominant II I nearly bought (twice, despite the intergalactic mileage and things like a back axle with play measured in inches) even fully laden could leave that thing for dead if it was empty.  It was seriously the most underpowered vehicle I think I've ever driven.  Hill starts seriously were a case of bouncing it off the rev limiter and praying.

 

Some operators who stuck with the more traditional bodies on the heavier chassis though resulted in some right flying machines.  GIB7513 was one such example, a very late B58 (1981 I think, don't have the original reg to hand) with a Supreme IV body on, that thing went like the clappers.  Rubbish heater though.

[Yoss]

You want to try Alton bus rally. They always have a good selection of NBC stuff running. That's not too bad a drive from Milton Keynes on a Sunday morning either. Obviously you're not going to get one in normal service any more.

 

I always thought VRs, whilst being rather Spartan felt fairly well put together. Noisy inside though but some of us didn't see that as a bad thing.

 

Here in Southampton it was Atlantean (CityBus) vs VR (NBC) and as I mentioned earlier the East Lancs bodies were comically bad which made the VR seem good quality.

 

Though oddly whilst the Atlantean was noisier on the outside (on a quiet morning I could hear them travelling the whole length of Lordshill way, about four minutes with stops, before it reached me) it was quieter inside. I think this was because the engine was basically on the outside of the bus with just a light fibreglass cover over it. And also because the banging and crashing of the body masked the engine noise.

 

The VR seemed to direct the engine noise inwards.

[CreepingJesus]

Whenever I think of Atlanteans, I think of a bunch of them routinely being held at full revs to get their air up, at the top of Hope St in Glasgow city centre. By the time they'd done the length of it - there's about ten junctions from memory, and several stops - the brakes were getting lazy to release, and the drivers were sighting their exit from the city centre.

To be fair, I don't recall many buses in Glasgow Corpy or SBG (or McGill's or any other) that didn't need a recharge there.

[Soap Distant]

Talking about Bristol REs got me to get my scanner out and scan pics of the REs we operated way back when. Enjoy!

 

 

STC928G A Bristol RESL-1/East Lancs  This was the second bus we bought after JRE526K, a Willowbrook bus bodied Ford, new to G and G, Leamington Spa. This bus put us on the course of buying REs as they were strong,cheap and plentiful at the right price! This was also the last RE we owned after progressing onto Nationals, sadly going for scrap around 1991-2.

 

 

 

 

YTB945N Bristol RESL-?/East Lancs  Nice machine this one. DP seating and higher speed diff but Gardner engine so it had the grunt to pull the higher gearing. I did put it aside after service but life got in the way and it went around 1990.

 

 

 

UHL936J and VHN783M UHL was a RELL/ECW ex West Riding and was the backbone machine. Totally reliable, went to work day in day out and lasted forever. Survived a repaint in our ownership and we even re floored it. 

VHN was a RELH/ECW high floor model. This and MHN57K were two of a miniscule amount of United REs that went for further service elsewhere. United liked to play around as this one came with an air throttle and MHN had parabolic rear springs (instead of multi leaf) and a Gardner 6HLXB unit and went like the proverbial but it did bounce a bit! Good machines but hated by the oldies so off they went to the bus yard in the sky.

 

 

 

Another of UHL after its second repaint.

 

 

 

 

OAE959M was one that didn't make it to service. After stripping, we called in the local tatters and I asked for the chassis plate. Most of a day later, all that was left was a pile of metal, wood and fiberglass. The chap in charge of the torch wandered over with a piece of the chassis in his hand with the chassis plate still firmly attached, handed it to me with the question "will that do?" It did and I still have the piece of chassis in my shed.

 

 

 

 

We did operate other types too but being a company of much enthusiasm but little cash we tended to buy things others wouldn't touch hence this:

 

 

 

WHN461M and its sister WHN464M were Pennine bodied Seddon RUs from Datrlington. Man, they were weird things. Air assisted steering, a parking brake that operated on both axles (Front and rear drums were the same size too - balanced) and a weird chassis design that sort of stopped half way round the rear. Great condition wise with healthy engines but fought us all the way. Needless to say, we didn't tame them and their stay was short. In fact I'm sure we didn't operate both together (that might have been for another reason I won't go into here).

 

 

HEF379N and it's sister HEF378N came in and out of our fleet like yo-yos. We had built a relationship with Martin Perry in Bromyard and dealt and swapped buses on a daily basis depending on our whims of the day. 378 finally settled down with Martin and was painted into his red livery but this one stopped with us. The complaints of high steps finally put paid to this fine steed. Leyland Leopard/Plaxton express re-seated with bus seats and rebuilt front dome. A pretty unburstable machine but just not popular with the public.

 

 

 

We had buses on demo from time to time on the proviso of buying some for service. Yeah, it usually meant we could do with a spare bus for a while while one was away for MoT work at Carlyle Works. We did buy new eventually (Two Merc 811D, Reves Burges that were nearly the first Reves Burges bodied Darts but we couldn't wait and after they but us off with various demos we lost our rag and changed the order for G989/990OHE) This was the Metrorider demo from Optare as they had not long taked over the design from MCW. Never a serious contender for us but the salesman was ex MCW and told us many horror stories on what went on in the final days. UHL puts in an appearance again and the bus on the left was one of two (we liked buying in twos for some reason) Bedford/Duple Dominant service buses, ex Maidstone. Fitted with Allison autos, they went like the clappers but ate engines on a monthly basis. A soon as they started to use a lot of oil, they were pulled and an engine rebuild commenced. After a while we got fed up of Bedford engine rebuilds and this one was sold on to an operator in Wales. The other became our office and we ran with the legal address for a time of Dominant House, Tividale.

 

 

 

 

Well, that'll do for tonight, I can see your eyes drooping. I may put up some more of the fleet another day if anyone's still awake to be interested. Oh go on, have a service van:

 

[rml2345]

Very interesting stuff, I'd like to see more if you have the inclination. Interesting comments about the oldies disliking steps as we had Seddon Pennine VIIs and the odd Leopard on local service buses well into the late 90s at least. Even the Scania N113s First ran into the mid noughties here weren't exactly oldie friendly so their rejection of REs seems a bit harsh.

[AndyW201]

Yay! Nice to see ex-Cleveland Transit HEF 379N in later service, almost in it's original colour scheme. They did like their Plaxton bodied Leopards! Here she is in her heyday, with bonus United Bristol LH..

 

 

All Cleveland Transit green/jasmine Plaxtons were coach body/bus spec from new. The orange ones from their coach operation were very much dual purpose though and it was common to see coach spec ones doing stage service, as with 379's close sister here,

 

 

Saying that, it wasnt unusual either to see a few of their orange coaches re seated with bus items when they were nearing the end of service. Dont even mention their Willowbrook of many guises...

 

Those United REs bring back some memories as well. United REs and LHs were a common sight in Middlesbrough.

[Vantman]