M5 crash

[504GL]

I wouldn't slag truck drivers off until you've had a go. Ok, so I've only driven 7.5tonners as I don't have LGV, but they're still limited to 56mph these days. It's a real eye-opener. Car drivers seem to just regard truckers as scum of the road which seems unfair as I can count many more incidents of twats in cars than I can twats in trucks.

 

I certainly wasn't. Far too many people will happily slip into traffic just in front of a truck as they would in front of a car. I hate it when someone turns me into a tailgater, it must be much worse for truck drivers.

 

The thing that pisses me off is that the potential benefit of cutting in front of a truck or tailgating other cars is so miniscule..... the risk reward benefit is just so not worth it.

[eddyramrod]

^^What Dollywobbler said, except I have worked Class 2. You can leave all the space you like in front of you, but some twat, almost always in a BMW 3-series (correct, from long observation; that's not simple prejudice) will always dive into it. The truck is then forced into some kind of evasive action, for which they are not designed, and either folds up or falls over. Then all the other managerial types drop their phones and slam into it. Meanwhile the space invader just romps away, having saved four seconds on his morning commute.

 

The general standard of driving in the UK is foul. Drivers do need re-educating, but will automatically and unanimously a) deny this and resist. The test also needs to be tougher and the Highway Code enforced (not just speed limits by fixed camera). There's no point trying to ban any class of vehicle from the motorway network, the country relies on it too much. In any case, the whole network was originally designed for trucks, so that the railways could be slimmed down. Everything that everybody owns or uses is carried by a truck at least once between initial supplier and end-user, so life needs to be made easier for the truck drivers (not necessarily the operators; I mean the actual men doing the hard work) rather than harder, which seems to be the general mood of the last 20+ years. Truck drivers have homes and families too.

 

Whatever is found to be the cause of this latest crash, the whole thing is pure horror and there aren't many people I would wish it on. My heart goes out to the families of the victims. RIP, or swift recovery, as applicable.

[504GL]

The general standard of driving in the UK is foul. Drivers do need re-educating, but will automatically and unanimously a) deny this and resist. The test also needs to be tougher and the Highway Code enforced (not just speed limits by fixed camera). There's no point trying to ban any class of vehicle from the motorway network, the country relies on it too much. In any case, the whole network was originally designed for trucks, so that the railways could be slimmed down.

 

Completely agree.

 

As a furriner (I am from Australia) the standard of driving here is terrible. Too many people think that firstly they are skilled, and then that this "skill" will somehow keep them safe and they can overcome stuff like snow and ice on summer tyres which other people on summer tyres wouldn't be able to overcome. Not realising that even if they are more skilled, they'll be safer with winter tyres for instance.....

 

http://conversation.which.co.uk/transpo ... -cars-buy/

[eddyramrod]

...And if you think UK is bad, try Cyprus! You really have to be alert here. Bloody hell....

[Guest Len H]

...the UK...

 

That's a bit unfair on Scotland, the standard of driving up here is not great but it's a lot better than England and Wales. I've only spent a week or so driving in England and Wales but it made me want to tear my hair out - tailgating, cars bunching up in groups, drivers constantly tapping the brakes because they're driving too close to the car in front, piss-poor signaling and lane discipline. Not that it doesn't happen in Scotland, but I imagine they're all English drivers.

[504GL]

...the UK...

 

That's a bit unfair on Scotland, the standard of driving up here is not great but it's a lot better than England and Wales. I've only spent a week or so driving in England and Wales but it made me want to tear my hair out - tailgating, cars bunching up in groups, drivers constantly tapping the brakes because they're driving too close to the car in front, piss-poor signaling and lane discipline. Not that it doesn't happen in Scotland, but I imagine they're all English drivers.

 

To be fair I've only spent a few days in Scotland. Didn't do any driving myself sadly.

[worldofceri]

Removing their limiters will just result in more trucks racing and refusing to give way to each other than already happens. If they can't even be trusted to behave decently when they're all limited to 56 mph then there's no way I'd want them doing 65, 70, or 80 mph.

 

I'm too young to have first-hand experience but, the concensus among older drivers seems to be that there was less taligating and snail-racing in the days before limiters. Mostly because you could put your foot down and get a few extra mph in order to get past a slower driver that won't give way.

[Cavcraft]

...the UK...

 

That's a bit unfair on Scotland, the standard of driving up here is not great but it's a lot better than England and Wales. I've only spent a week or so driving in England and Wales but it made me want to tear my hair out - tailgating, cars bunching up in groups, drivers constantly tapping the brakes because they're driving too close to the car in front, piss-poor signaling and lane discipline. Not that it doesn't happen in Scotland, but I imagine they're all English drivers.

 

Absolutely. They're probably all trying to get back to the right side of the border.

[garethj]

Everything that everybody owns or uses is carried by a truck at least once between initial supplier and end-user, so life needs to be made easier for the truck drivers

Bollocks to that, if all the people who cleaned the toilets went on strike tomorrow the country would be crippled by Monday lunchtime. Should we make special arrangements for them too?

 

Agree with the rest of the comments about bad driving though. I've noticed that you can leave a "small gap" where nobody can dive in but you'll probably plough into the back if he brakes, or a "twat's gap" where you could reasonably brake but a twat will pull into it. I tend to leave a twat's gap most of the time, but I do call out "twat" a lot when I'm driving.

[Bren]

The Police no longer call these type of incidents "road traffic accidents" because it is implying that it is a sequence of circumstances beyond anybody's control. Unfortunately the fact is that the incident will be the result of some human factor.

 

That is why they are now called "road traffic collisions". The collision will be the result of poor driving, inattentiveness, poor maintainence, not allowing for the weather conditions etc. I could go on for hours.

 

I drive in excess of 15k a year and I enjoy riding my motorcycle, it never ceases to amaze me the piss poor standard of driving in this country, it does seem to have gotten worse with the extra safety features on modern vehicles and the advent of sat nav, people still using their phones etc.

 

The last couple of winters have shown how poor people's driving and lack of understanding of basic vehicle preperation for winter. They think they can leave the house at normal time and still get to work ok. Well you can't.

 

I think a re - test every five years would get a lot of the poor drivers off the roads and raise the overall standard. Plus as part of working towards a test you should have experience of driving on slippery surfaces, like they do in Scandanavia.

 

It's no coincidence some of the top rally drivers come from these parts.

[eddyramrod]

Everything that everybody owns or uses is carried by a truck at least once between initial supplier and end-user, so life needs to be made easier for the truck drivers

Bollocks to that, if all the people who cleaned the toilets went on strike tomorrow the country would be crippled by Monday lunchtime. Should we make special arrangements for them too?

 

Having done that job too.... yes! My Tesco (for it was there that I had such responsibility) had beautiful toilets you could have eaten your dinner in. I've been to some beautiful restaurants with ghastly toilets, and always cast a professional's eye over them. I'm often disappointed....

[boobydoo]

I do recall a life-like computer reconstuction of that 1991 accident being shown on the Speed Awareness Course I had to do a couple of years ago.

 

A van initially ploughed into the central barrier in thick fog. This resulted in seemingly endless cars and lorries slamming into the back of each other with a sickening bang. You could see people trying to take evasive action onto the hard shoulder only to end up side on to the coming traffic.

 

It made me feel sick to the stomach and it really did bring a tear to my eye. The course instructor would say things like " This Cavalier approaching now is going to plough into the underneath of this truck and the driver is beheaded." Just dreadful.

 

The van driver who caused it, claimed a pigeon flew at his windscreen causing him to instinctively steer into the centre reservation, but this was later disputed by an expert who said birds don't fly in fog.

[Autoplas]

i don't know if this has been touched on so far, but one reason in my opinion why driving standards have fallen in this country is drivers seemingly believing that all of the equipment on their car such as ABS, traction control etc will get them out of trouble regardless of what speed they are doing and if the unthinkable did happen then the plethora of airbags on their car will keep them safe.

 

It is either ignorance or arrogance, but it is not true.

 

For me, Audis have taken over from BMWs as the wankers weapon of choice, be it either tailgating or cutting in front. I don't drive fast and often make use of the cruise control on A or M roads, I am certainly not an old duffer but the amount of people that taiilgate these days is frightening. It made me smile about someone using their washers, if I have a persistent tailgater I often emply the 'Ayrton Senna Brake Test' method in a safe manner and they usually back off. If they persist then rapid acceleration away from them in sport mode before slowing back down to the same speed usually works, if not for the fact that they can't believe that some ****ing great E Class has just made their 1.8 Audi or BMW rep mobile look rather stupid

[Mr_Bo11ox]

WOW i certainly didnt expect this thread to wind up with a general dissing of modern cars & drivers and audis in particular.

[warren t claim]

I thought I'd add a bit to the debate.

 

The police, politicians and the worthless scum at BRAKE are all taking credit for the declining number of fatalities on the nations roads but I strongly believe that the car manufacturers are at least 80% responsible for our roads being safer than ever before.

 

When I'm driving past the scene of an accident where there are cars parked up on the hard shoulder I always apply "Bolans Law" where I try and speculate whether the occupants would still be standing on the embankment telephoning their insurance company if they were driving a 1275GT Mini.

[dollywobbler]

Sadly, I worry that the real problem is that everyone thinks they're a better driver than everyone else. Even on this thread. Yet there are discussions about brake testing and doing things to deliberately upset the car behind further. A few years ago, perhaps I would have been all 'yeah, serves 'em right' but fighting fire with fire rarely leads to a happy ending. I just try to ignore the idiots these days and feel glad that they've usually indicated their idiocy by having their fog lights on for no good reason - a useful warning sign.

 

Being devil's advocate for a moment, from a neutral point of view you have to laugh at all the car drivers who keep rolling the 'get freight off the road and onto the railways.' If freight could speak, perhaps if would think exactly the same thing about passengers. Why should car drivers get priority over freight? Why can't car drivers use the train? (yes, obviously I'd prefer to drive, but the problem is, most people prefer to drive, even when stuck in traffic misery).

 

Back to the smash, have now seen a report about sudden and exceedingly dence fog reducing visibility to mere metres. You could be the best driver in the world, but I'm not sure how you're meant to respond to that. I've hit drifting fog before and it's bloody terrifying. What do you do? Slamming the anchors on is likely to end badly, but easing off isn't going to help you if there's stationary traffic just ahead of you.

 

And no, you can't ignore the fact that modern cars ARE safer. Are people really much worse at driving now or is it just that the roads are more crowded? Len says that driving is better in Scotland, but is that just because there are less cars? Edinburgh in rush hour is still pretty traumatic I must say.

[Autoplas]

WOW i certainly didnt expect this thread to wind up with a general dissing of modern cars & drivers and audis in particular.

 

How unfortunate

[Autoplas]

Sadly, I worry that the real problem is that everyone thinks they're a better driver than everyone else. Even on this thread. Yet there are discussions about brake testing and doing things to deliberately upset the car behind further. A few years ago, perhaps I would have been all 'yeah, serves 'em right' but fighting fire with fire rarely leads to a happy ending. I just try to ignore the idiots these days and feel glad that they've usually indicated their idiocy by having their fog lights on for no good reason - a useful warning sign.

 

Being devil's advocate for a moment, from a neutral point of view you have to laugh at all the car drivers who keep rolling the 'get freight off the road and onto the railways.' If freight could speak, perhaps if would think exactly the same thing about passengers. Why should car drivers get priority over freight? Why can't car drivers use the train? (yes, obviously I'd prefer to drive, but the problem is, most people prefer to drive, even when stuck in traffic misery).

 

Back to the smash, have now seen a report about sudden and exceedingly dence fog reducing visibility to mere metres. You could be the best driver in the world, but I'm not sure how you're meant to respond to that. I've hit drifting fog before and it's bloody terrifying. What do you do? Slamming the anchors on is likely to end badly, but easing off isn't going to help you if there's stationary traffic just ahead of you.

 

And no, you can't ignore the fact that modern cars ARE safer. Are people really much worse at driving now or is it just that the roads are more crowded? Len says that driving is better in Scotland, but is that just because there are less cars? Edinburgh in rush hour is still pretty traumatic I must say.

 

IMO it does. You don't need to drive dangerously, that will inflame the situation, as I have stated you can get an idiot off the rear end of your car quite easily and safely.

[cort16]

Wow I'm Scottish and drive an Audi. I am a menace to society.

As said these things happen and always have. This one seems terrible and I can't think of a worse way to go.

[Pete-M]

The Police no longer call these type of incidents "road traffic accidents" because it is implying that it is a sequence of circumstances beyond anybody's control. Unfortunately the fact is that the incident will be the result of some human factor.

 

That is why they are now called "road traffic collisions". The collision will be the result of poor driving, inattentiveness, poor maintainence, not allowing for the weather conditions etc. I could go on for hours.

 

I drive in excess of 15k a year and I enjoy riding my motorcycle, it never ceases to amaze me the piss poor standard of driving in this country, it does seem to have gotten worse with the extra safety features on modern vehicles and the advent of sat nav, people still using their phones etc.

 

The last couple of winters have shown how poor people's driving and lack of understanding of basic vehicle preperation for winter. They think they can leave the house at normal time and still get to work ok. Well you can't.

 

I think a re - test every five years would get a lot of the poor drivers off the roads and raise the overall standard. Plus as part of working towards a test you should have experience of driving on slippery surfaces, like they do in Scandanavia.

 

It's no coincidence some of the top rally drivers come from these parts.

 

I think Bren has just summed it up.

 

Doing a lot of motorway miles you do see some properly scary things. In the last few weeks I've seen plenty of good examples of people who should not be allowed on the road. On the M6 raceway a few weeks ago I thought there was going to be a massive accident caused by a chap in a seemingly immaculate Sunbeam Alpine who was doing about 90 mph with his nearside front brake disc glowing bright red, smoke pouring from the stinking pads and it was plain to see that the guy was fighting the steering (the roof was down) - yet he was tailgating an Audi A6 that was in a convoy of cars driving at about 85-90 safely. The other cars were all spaced out well, flowing along the motorway in a sensible manner and yet this Alpine driver was a foot or two from the back of the last car in the convoy with seriously dodgy brakes. Another example was on the M6 between J15-16 where I saw a girl in a BMW 120d doing close to 120 in the rain, on the phone, staring at the sunvisor mirror checking her hair. She couldn't have been able to see much past the visor and didn't seem to care. I've seen a geezer in a Merc Sprinter flatback with three motorbikes on the back, no sides, and the bikes sitting on paddock stands with one piece of nylon rope holding the lot down - through the wheels. A bloody huge 30-odd foot Yankee motorhome on the M6 doing 56 mph with a fully laden, roofboxed up, Volvo 850 estate on an a-frame behind it with no lights on or reg plate. Stoners in a Transit Connect filled with smoke with one headlight out in the dark about 6ft from the back of an artic with another artic about 6ft behind the van.

 

All forms of life are out there on the motorway. Never give anyone else on the road the benefit of the doubt because nobody knows what anyone else is thinking. Including you. Give 'em space, stay out of the way, and be vigilant. I'm not saying do 40 mph everywhere as that's not the way to go, get a move on when it is safe to do so, but if you watch what is going on around you, signal and drive in a way so it's blindingly obvious to anyone who's bothering to look at the road what you're about to do and have a good escape route whenever possible then you're being about as safe as it's possible to be when you're surrounded by things that weigh between 200kg and 200 tons* that's all moving at anywhere between 20-100 mph.

 

 

*Some of those big special load trucks with convoys and stuff can weigh in at bloody scary numbers. Get hit by one of those that's doing even 30 mph and it's one hell of a punch. "e = m v²"

[HillmanImp]

 

Whats the black car highlighted? Looks old? Or is it just an illusion?

 

I am also Scottish and drive an Audi. I am a fucking liability though.

[warren t claim]

Maybe we SHOULD get freight off the roads. I quite fancy being the skipper of a barge.

 

Seriously, it's easy for a casual observer to come up with ideas to make the road haulage infrastructure safer but until you've experienced it first hand at cab height you really wouldn't know what's a workable solution.

 

Lets put a scenario into the debate, namely banning trucks from the middle lane of motorways. What would happen? Let me tell you! Just because trucks are limited to 56mph doesn't mean that they're actually capable of maintaining that speed at all times, a 44tonne laden unit is always going to struggle climbing a gradient whereas an unladen unit and trailer would be happy to sit on its limiter therefore we end up with a several mile long convoy of trucks in the inside lane. Now many of you would think bollocks to 'em but lets look at the knock on effect for the rest of the traffic, for example in the middle lane we now have a coach stuck on his 62mph limiter who now is not going to have any clear space to pull into the nearside lane so now we have a middle lane with an effective speed limit of 62mph. This has now forced anyone hoping to travel faster into the outside lane but unfortunately in lane 3 we have Mr Bill and Ben, the self employed removals men in their 15 year old LWB Transit doing a flat out 66mph because they need to get to the post office to cash their Giros. Both the Transit and coach could be in lane 1 but there's now no space for them and the traffic is now an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

[Richard]

Whats the black car highlighted? Looks old? Or is it just an illusion?

 

Fiat 500?

[scooters]

Bloody sheeple in their modern Cavaliers, Sierras, 405s etc, they should be driving Morris Eights, Invacars and Yugos, that'd make them safer drivers etc. etc. zzzzzzzzzzz

 

 

You reverting to form again eh? I wondered how long it would be.

[Lankytim]

Over on the truckers forum a witness recons that the smash was caused by someone bumbling onto the motorway without looking and colliding with another vehicle. The fire was started by a car which hit the back end of the rearmost lorry and burst into flames. Could be total bollocks mind. My money is on motorists driving too fast and too close together for the conditions, nothing more than that.

 

There are a few bad lorry drivers out there, but 99% are very professional, many having driven further in reverse than some of the self appointed "motoring experts" have driven forwards. Some of the comments I have read on the Telegraph website are laughable LORRIES SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THE ROADS AND THE DRIVERS CHEMICALLY CASTRATED e.t.c.

[M'coli]

This terrible accident has been unfortunate to happen on the 4th of November. Driving standards are poorer these days than they used to be, which I believe is a combination of factors - risk compensation because of the increases in safety that modern cars have, but much more so that we now have so many more distractions like sat-nav and mobile phones that demand the road users' attentions - but these accidents will always occur. Dreadful though they are, the motorways still have the lowest mortailty and accident rate of all UK roads.

 

In 1999, I travelled from Huntingdon to Holmfirth (the idea was then to go to Manchester for a gig, but luckily it was cancelled) on Friday of bonfire night and suffered 3 seperate tail-backs due to accidents on the A1 and M1 - all of which could be contributed to people hurrying to firework displays and being inattentive to the roads ahead. It's just going to be a fact of life that these will happen, and that luck will play a large part of not being involved in them.

 

For example, there was a case locally a few years ago of a pregnant woman who joined the A1M and was hit from behind by a Transit-type van - the local media declared an outcry at this disgraceful behaviour, with the pregnancy angle being played particularly heavily. What was the van supposed to do? Having moved out to the middle lane to let this car onto the motorway, how was it supposed to react in time when the pregnant woman's car pulls into the middle lane, right in front of it despite the left-hand lane being clear?

 

I don't have the answer, and I suspect no-one has.

[Guest Len H]

Bloody sheeple in their modern Cavaliers, Sierras, 405s etc, they should be driving Morris Eights, Invacars and Yugos, that'd make them safer drivers etc. etc. zzzzzzzzzzz

 

 

You reverting to form again eh? I wondered how long it would be.

 

I see you're reverting to form by being a MASSIVE FUD.

[dollywobbler]

You've just reminded me of when I had the misfortune to watch a programme about terrified drivers. The woman was petrified of motorways so they get some chap to help her get confidence. He drilled into her that her space is her space and others must respect it. They then filmed her pulling out on a motorway straight into the path of someone! Gee, well done mister. Clearly she's cured.

[504GL]

He drilled into her that her space is her space and others must respect it.

 

That's my view on things too. It's my space and I'll do more or less whatever I want to keep my space.

[dollywobbler]

Yes, but having your space doesn't give you the right to drive straight at people!