Bodger

[Joloke]

& Badger

[Honey Badger]

Adhesives have come a long way recently, for non structural panels a joddled edge bonded on with an MMA adhesive will last as long as welded patch as long as the steel is back to bare metal and degreased, some joints will take a 20 ton load before letting go.

 

Not a fan of GRP and metal as it doesn't really bond that well and grp is really stiff, any flex in the panel will pop the GRP off. Metal patches bonded into place with an adhesive will give you a longer lasting repair. also as your not putting heat into the join it shouldn't warp.

 

A lot of modern cars actually bond the tubs with polyurethane adhesives, which are not pleasant to use (quite toxic).

[Faker]

I agree to a point. I think we've all hit that point of "I'm not doing this any more". You're happy with your present motor, but at some point you'll maybe find that it's just not enough and the ocd will kick in. Enjoy the mini for what it is.

[Slartibartfast]

I think you're preaching to the converted here, chap.

[Lankytim]

My 1956 Minor appeared very solid, with great floors and sills.. however after a bit of investigation discovered everything had been repaired in the 80s with brazed in patches, bits of dexion shelving and fibreglass. Uurgh!

[DodgeRover]

It's funny was discussing pop riveting cover cills on and brazing stuff in place with the MOT man last time I was in, he was saying he is still occasionally finding stuff like that which was done back in the day when someone brings something in and the undersealing has fallen off.

[xtriple]

I must admit I am considering doing a 'bodge job' on the sill(cill) of my MX5. it has a tiny little patch right under the car at the back of the sill(cill) and to me, it looks like the car has had a new wheelarch on that side. Why? I have no idea! There is rustproofing stuff everywhere on the car as it was done professionally when it was imported and it is the cleanest MX5 I have ever seen underneath - they always have surface rust everywhere especially on the suspension, but not this one.

 

I think it's had a wheelarch because in certain lights and angles you can just see where its been joined, I think 'accident repair' rather than rust. But, right at the bottom there is that little patch. I have had a dig with a screwdriver and the outer skin is about 5 microns thick and went straight through but underneath that is perfect! Very odd.

 

Any ideas? 

[Eddie Honda]

 

(clicky pic for the rest )

[danthecapriman]

I'm possibly going against the grain on here a bit.

Bodging is fine with me on a car I'm not bothered about as long as it's not stupidly dangerous. I've done a few works of art on old shitters before with filler and chemical metal!

 

However, on a car I like and want to keep it gets done properly no if's no but's.

If the damaged area was metal originally it's repaired with metal. If the joins were originally spot welds it's repaired using spot welds as a minimum. If a welded repair goes in it's seam welded and done right, you get the idea!

I've spent a lot of time on my 'keepers' fixing them properly because it's the right way to do it. I've done loads of welding on the Granada for example, yes, stuffing filler in certain places would probably of done ok but I'd know it was there and I just can't do it or live with it.

 

This is another example of doing it properly!

I did consider doing the Capri at home but decided against it in the end and instead go all in for a full on bare metal resto. Cheap it ain't, but it's getting the treatment and it'll be far better than what I could do at home and that's what I want.

I'm sure there's many on here that don't agree or think I'm mad but I want things done right and done once.

The other thing here is the safety aspect. Filler and adhesives or chicken wire, or substandard repairs do not behave well in an accident. Old cars aren't ever going to be good here but some of the past MOT style bodges I've seen wouldn't hold up at all if it came down to it.

My Capri above had patches on top of patches, spot welded (bird shit welds) and seam sealer and under seal covering structural rot and I didn't know it was there, even after owning the car 15 years. It so far hadn't got any worse but in the event of a crash it would of just crumpled and made a bad situation worse. Like I said, I want things done well and done once!

That's not to say I don't like rough old cars, I do and my Granada is a battered rough old thing but it's good and repaired properly where it matters.

[r.welfare]

^^^ AA Book Of The Car, 1970 edition! What a tome.

[mat_the_cat]

I think you're preaching to the converted here, chap.

 

Chapess...

[Asimo]

What is supposed to be wrong with brazing as a technique for sheet steel repair?

The only body repairs that I have ever done were brazed and I was told the brazed lap joints would be stronger than the spot welds the brazing was replacing. That was a long time ago, what has changed and why?

[danthecapriman]

Think it depends what it is and old Fords are on the up

If its something that's worth it like your Capri I get that but I just enjoy my old Merc as it is a bit like your Granada

Fair enough, but even on my Granada I wouldn't for example, find a small rust hole in the sill and stuff some fibreglass into it as a fix. It's just not good enough IMHO. I'd cut the rust out and seam weld new metal into the hole. Then cavity wax the inside of the repair and patch paint the outside.

The repair is proper, but the paint finish outside still reflects the make do and mend approach the rest of the car has. If that makes sense!

 

I don't think brazing is a suitable repair tbh. As it's not actually fusing the metal surfaces together. It's more like soldering in that respect as your laying two steel sections together then bonding them with the molten filler rod. I guess that if there was enough flex or impact in the area of the brazed repair it could separate?

Obviously welding does melt and fuse the steel surfaces together so they effectively become one piece.

I can't say I know much about brazing though, I only did a bit of it at school and quickly got into mig welding instead.

Having said this, there are old cars where brazing was used from new. I'm sure the E type used it on the front end sections?

[D Spares & Tyres]

Definately agree

 

Im in the middle ( well, nearer the beginning to be honest ) of a restoration on a 1958 Wolseley but I have lost my mojo a little lately, it is never going to be perfect nor anywhere near.

 

I haven`t touched it for a while but I am seriously thinking of just doing all the structural welding on it and then just bodging the rest. Im not selling it and it will be kept undercover so even the bodges should last a while. I will at least get to use it much sooner and I will feel happier having a shiny complete car that I can actually use. I can always re-do the bodged bits in the future as and when I feel like it. It will never be a concours winner anyway and even if it was I wouldn`t enter!

 

This is Autoshite after all so yes I fully endorse fibreglass so long as it is safe. Just use hardener. I bought my first car aged 16 ( mk1 Fiesta two tone beige and brown ) and fibreglassed the front wings. Nobody told me anything about hardener......... 

[Bfg]

I'm having my '74 Citroen worked on at the moment.. an ongoing situation.!  I had specifically asked for the replacement inner panels to be spot welded in - as the car had originally been constructed.  And where he (the professional restorer) couldn't get a spot welder in ..then he was to drill holes in one panel and 'plug weld' through to the other..   The reason for this being five fold. These being ; 1) the heat from continuous weld distorts the panels being welded. And wobbly panels look crap and are not very good for transferring loads (they are more prone to buckle).  2) continuous welds look shit unless they are really high class welds..  And then, 3) what's the point in using plated-against-corrosion sheet metal if the edges are ground back to get a good weld and otherwise the excessive heat burns all that protective plating off ?   4) the heat from continuous weld changes the adjacent metal's molecular structure and weakens it.. quite like a continuous fault line.  And 5) the stiffness of continuous edge welding is very different to the (usually) staggered pattern of spot welding. And as the car's structure was designed for spot welding then changing those characteristics can cause excessive stressing at other junctions.    Unfortunately the first photos sent of the work done on my car showed that the restorer had completed ignored this request ..and the car is patched with zips of continuous weld.  And that pisses me off.!

 

Regarding other points mentioned in this topic. 

 

         Brazing ..of overlapped metal is a good joint - only if both surfaces are  cleaned back to bare metal and tinned, and are a sliding fit together.  Motorcycle frames and many car parts were originally brazed and have lasted decades. When the sleeved joint is done well then no air nor water can get inbetween, which means no corrosion in those joints.    My 1940's and 1950's motorcycles are a good example of an all brazed frame. No part of these frames were originally welded and most being restored sixty or seventy years later are perfectly fine.    However, where car panels are being repaired then often both surfaces cannot be accessed well enough to clean back to bare metal.  And then also the panels are not such a good sliding fit  (there are gaps inbetween).  And then again amateurs tend to braze edge to edge butt rather than overlapped joints..  And then any brazed joint is only as strong as the brass - which is of course not as strong as the steel.   

 

       Fibreglass (grp filler,  fibre reinforced paste,  or impregnated glass mat) is most often Polyester resin.  Polyester resin shrinks as it chemically cures by between 2% (if mixed to cure slowly) to as much as 6% if a 'hot' mix is applied.  So for example..,  if the steel being stuck to is 100mm long then the filler will shrink to just 94 - 98mm long - so it's being stretched like a too tight an elastoplast (is stressed and tries to peel off).   And if the steel is cold, oily, rusty, dirty, or in any way damp (humidity in the air) then the polyester doesn't adhere very well because it sticks to whatever there is and not to the metal.  Either way the joint is liable to pull apart.  Metal also expands more when it get's hot (rising heat from summer tarmac, in an engine bay or near the exhaust, or from direct sunlight on the panel).  And it is also not very tolerant of higher temperatures (it goes soft).  Either or both together can also cause the bond between the metal and plastic to fail. 

       And then polyester resin is also hydroscopic.  That means it absorbs moisture. It needs painting with a waterproof paint (not just primer) to keep the moisture out, otherwise that &/or ice particles will also contribute to it coming away along one or more edges.  It is also softened by different chemicals such as the additives in petrol (which will dissolve it in time), and some brake / clutch fluids, and to some extent oil. 

      Epoxy resins & fillers are much better insomuch as the shrinkage (as it chemically cures) is usually between 1 & 2 %.  Epoxy molecules are very much stronger than polyester too. And epoxy is for all intense and purpose water and chemical proof (it is not hydroscopic).  It is also very much more tolerant of extremes of temperature. In fact to get it to fully cure needs heat applied.  Painting over epoxy can be more of a nuisance though. Two pack paint is generally required because the chemicals in the paint which help etch the bond really don't effect the epoxy !

 

All in all though.., filler, grp, brazed joints, rivets, gaffer tape or whatever is legally fine where it's not MOT structural, ie not near parts of the chassis structure / body mounting, nor nearby suspension, steering, brake parts, nor seat-belt mounts,  and not presenting a hazard to others in the event of accident.    I had an MOT advisory on my old Jag not so long ago because the inner wheel arch panel which the servo was mounted to had a loose overlap at the bottom.  I cut the overlap off,  So.. no flap, nothing loose, no longer an advisory.! 

 

Of course filler and other bodged repairs devalue a car, so that may determine your course of action.  I recently looked at a car that had 'continuously welded' repairs, and I didn't buy it because of this.  Had he instead overlapped the repair panels and spot or plug welded them, then filled the edges with PU sealant before paint - then I would gladly have paid the full asking price.  Instead ' NO  SALE  '   ..Food for thought perhaps ?

 

Hope something in the above is useful

[sierraman]

I have, in my junior days, filled a hole in a sill with P38. Also once made a wheel arch lip again from some biscuit tin, self tappers and filler.

 

Now I'm older and (not much) wiser wouldn't fuck about like that.

[DodgeRover]

What is supposed to be wrong with brazing as a technique for sheet steel repair?

The only body repairs that I have ever done were brazed and I was told the brazed lap joints would be stronger than the spot welds the brazing was replacing. That was a long time ago, what has changed and why?

Brazing on of repair panels (unless the originals were brazed) isn't an acceptable repair for MOT purposes (for quite a long time now), or so I was told.

[captain_70s]

Plenty of fibreglass and filler in the non-structural parts of the yellow Doloshite. Not really fussed to be honest, if it looks half decent (or better than a rusty hole) then that's good enough for me. Some of the welding to the floorpans is fairly horendous as well and much of the underside is mostly made of 2 inches of underseal. Certainly a "MOT worthy but I'd not want to crash it" type deal and that's all I plan to maintain it to, trying to actually improve it would be a complete waste of money and time on a worthless and undesirable car. Easier to strip it and buy a better one.

 

The 1300 has an interesting (Possibly period) repair to the wheel arches where they seem to rivited over the rusted ones and have then rusted themselves in really odd places, probably due to trapping water. I've not dared to take the paint off and assess what lies beneath the bubbling yet...

 

Yellow Dolly will most likely transfer in ownership at some point in the future, probably to the bloke who's doing my welding and he's fine with it's condition, green Dolly will be staying with me for the forseeable future so no worries there! Although, if I was repairing cars for the sole purpose of historic preservation or with the intent to sell I'd probably... Not bother at all and leave it to some other bugger!