Motorway speed limit

[warren t claim]

Motorways were designed for trucks. Cars are the intruders.

 

I've only ever heard this argument coming from truckists, never actually seen any documented facts to prove it.

 

Motorways were originally designed to cope with vehicles travelling at around 100 mph, which in the late 1950s was a somewhat unusual feat for a family car, never mind a fully laden Foden or ERF.

 

Trucks cause more congestion than anything else on the motorway, so it's trucks that are the problem.

 

Motorway bridges are a minimum of 16' 6" to allow trucks carrying cruise missiles to pass under them without going "BANG".

[dollywobbler]

We have actually Warren... (I think it was Chaseracer)

 

You do learn to drive differently in Wales. If you get stuck behind a truck doing 40, there's sod all you can do about it as overtaking spots are few and far between, and my cars too feeble.

[Richard]

I don't encounter many lorries doing 40 on single carriageway roads, when I do it's usually supermarket lorries.

[Pete-M]

Go on then Pete, tell me how you'll manage without the goods. Any goods, choose a commodity, I don't care. It all comes by truck, as I said earlier. Who's going to put it in the shops for you to buy? The telly fairy? The coffee fairy? The coffee fairy's name is Dave, he has a wife and kids he would like to see once in a while, and when he gets to 45 years old he has to renew his licence at his own expense, including a medical also at his own expense. If he has a boss who will cover these, he's an exception. Investors In People?

And what other career would you advise Dave to take up? Brain surgery? Estate agency?

 

I know it all comes by truck, you're right about it being mental to have broken up the rail system in the 60s.

 

As all this stuff comes by truck this must, by reason, mean there are a shit load of Daves out there doing the job. Not all the Daves insist on doing 5 mile overtaking stunts on the M6 every day - some of the Daves are intelligent enough to realise that if they try to pass something that is doing the same speed as them then they're likely to hold up a couple of thousand other people who're also trying to get somewhere and that it's futile to try and pass something doing 56 mph if their top speed is also 56 mph. There has to be a speed differential between the two Daves, one of more than the 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001 mph that quite a few Daves consider to be enough to mean that they'll get home and see little Dave an hour earlier than if they just sat behind for 5 minutes.

 

This is where the problem lies. Dave doesn't give a toss about the people in cars, because Dave thinks that because he's in a HGV he's king of the road. Dave has a big heavy truck and those who drive cars aren't proper drivers, so Dave is gonna take from Stafford to Thelwall to overtake another truck because he can, and because the law doesn't have anything specific that can be used to stop him.

 

Well, screw Dave. Ban him for being an inconsiderate sod and get another, better, Dave to drive instead. There's no shortage of Romanian / Polish / Latvian Daves who'd keep the fuck outta the way for BritDave's wages.

 

Oh, and as for the bridges being 16'6" - it makes sense that trucks can use the motorway, doesn't mean that they were designed just for trucks. That's like saying that railway tracks are 4 ft 8 1â„2" gauge to suit the Virgin Pendelino.

[wuvvum]

I'm surprised we haven't had a rant about us driving at 40mph on 60mph single carriageway A roads yet.

Now that really is a fucking stupid rule. It was introduced in the name of "safety", but all it's done is give us single carriageways full of pissed off car drivers stuck behind yet another of the 4,837,266 Tesco lorries that are on the roads of this country at any one time, and pulling stupid overtaking manoeuvres to get past said Tesco lorry. I know, I've done it myself on several occasions.

 

There is actually a bit in the Highway Code which says that vehicles that are travelling at less than the speed limit and thereby holding up a queue of traffic are supposed to pull over and let said traffic past when it's safe to do so. Tractors (usually) seem to manage it, but I've never seen a lorryist do it. I don't blame the lorryists for this necessarily - they're usually on a tight schedule dictated by vast corporations and idiot transport managers who have never driven anything bigger than a Yaris. It's still fucking annoying though.

 

There, was that enough of a rant for you?

[wuvvum]

You do learn to drive differently in Wales. If you get stuck behind a truck doing 40, there's sod all you can do about it as overtaking spots are few and far between, and my cars too feeble.

Replace "Wales" with "north Norfolk" and you've described my situation to a tee...

[warren t claim]

I don't encounter many lorries doing 40 on single carriageway roads, when I do it's usually supermarket lorries.

 

That's because they have trackers fitted and they'd get bollocked when their masters look at the printouts at the end of the day.

 

No wonder I always drive for small companies.

[eddyramrod]

I'm surprised we haven't had a rant about us driving at 40mph on 60mph single carriageway A roads yet.

 

You want one? I'll be happy to oblige... No actually that's not strictly true. It makes me extremely unhappy to be able to oblige from personal experience. A66 across Cumbria, to get back to the M6 so I can return to Preston and load up for tomorrow. 40mph all the way although the 18-tonne MAN/ERF is perfectly capable of better. Loooooooooooooooooong queues of afternoon drivers getting ridiculously impatient behind me and not a sausage I can do about it. They want to pick their kids up from school, I want to get out of the county before Hour 13 of my working day, and possibly home within 16 hours of leaving it. Some hope.

 

I'm so glad I left all that behind. The motorway across the south of Cyprus is a dream, only two lanes with a 100kph limit on most of it, but so little traffic I could be fooled into thinking it's the M58. The sunshine gives it away...

 

"There's no shortage of Romanian / Polish / Latvian Daves who'd keep the fuck outta the way for BritDave's wages." Oh dear Pete. Oh very dear. This is exactly the attitude I've met sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times from people who simply don't know what is involved. On another (Cyprus-based) forum, somebody actually used the phrase "driving is not a specialised skill." You can imagine what that did to my adrenaline level!

 

"idiot transport managers who have never driven anything bigger than a Yaris" ...As I was saying: people who just don't know. Unfortunately these are the ones in charge and they can (and do, reliably) make every day total misery for the drivers.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I must say, i'm fuggin glad i'm not a truck driver, it doesnt look like a laugh a minute by any means.

[retrogeezer]

I'm surprised we haven't had a rant about us driving at 40mph on 60mph single carriageway A roads yet.

Now that really is a fucking stupid rule. It was introduced in the name of "safety", but all it's done is give us single carriageways full of pissed off car drivers stuck behind yet another of the 4,837,266 Tesco lorries that are on the roads of this country at any one time, and pulling stupid overtaking manoeuvres to get past said Tesco lorry. I know, I've done it myself on several occasions.

 

 

 

The cynic in me can't help but think that these limits are deliberately put in place to make car users waste more fuel and to catch people on speed cameras when they try to overtake.

[warren t claim]

I'm beginning to agree with the truck haters on here.

 

I think we should open up our canal network for carrying non perishable goods, then I could drive a canal barge like my vocational ancestor "Jerimiah T Claim" who was plying his trade on the Leeds/Liverpool canal (Known as the C62) back in 1885 pausing only to "Strike down ner' do well travellers of Irish descent who attempt to pike thy coal at overnight watering holes" and "Slice the throats of ladies of dubious morals who choose to trade their virtue for a fourpenny kneetrembler".

 

After a look around the Ellesmere Port boat museum I was surprised to note the average canal barge had more living space than any current Topliner/Globetrotter as well.

 

Win/Win all round I think!

[Pete-M]

[Oh dear Pete. Oh very dear. This is exactly the attitude I've met sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times from people who simply don't know what is involved. On another (Cyprus-based) forum, somebody actually used the phrase "driving is not a specialised skill." You can imagine what that did to my adrenaline level!

 

"idiot transport managers who have never driven anything bigger than a Yaris" ...As I was saying: people who just don't know. Unfortunately these are the ones in charge and they can (and do, reliably) make every day total misery for the drivers.

 

Oh, I know they're not easy things to drive - I said exactly that earlier in this very thread.

 

If it was made compulsory for Transport Managers to drive a working HGV for two years before being able to become a Transport Manager - do you think that would make any difference whatsoever? I doubt it, but it may help.

 

Wazza's canal barge suggestion may well be a good way of getting rid of impatient Dave.

[eddyramrod]

The cynic in me can't help but think that these limits are deliberately put in place to make car users waste more fuel and to catch people on speed cameras when they try to overtake.

 

Your cynic is totally correct.

 

Mr B, I know I've been ranting here for a few pages but in all honesty: it's the job I always wanted to do. If you find that, then you take the rough with the smooth and just learn to enjoy whatever moments you can. A590 westbound at 6am in August is pretty magical, and through the windscreen of an EC11, perfectly framed.

 

Trucks pull over to let traffic past? Sure, where, exactly? Not only are there not enough laybys anyway, councils are closing them hand over fist. There is almost nowhere for a truck to stop between starting point and destination. The UK road system has been criminally mismanaged for decades. And once Dave has pulled over, how does he rejoin? You seriously imagine ANY "driver" of an X5 is going to let him into the stream? NFW.

[Pete-M]

You seriously imagine ANY "driver" of an X5 is going to let him into the stream? NFW.

 

That's not just a problem for trucks.... X5s don't let anyone out, ever!

[eddyramrod]

I've deliberately made a further posting for this one....

 

Is this thread getting too rant-driven? I can see some quite heated comments here (many of them from me). Do we want that? Would we all feel better if we drifted back to topic, which wasn't actually about the HGV's right to road space.

[Richard]

A Scottish truck magazine did a test where they did a circuit including the A9. On the first day they stuck to 40 on the single carriageway sections, and on the second day they did 50. They counted the heart-stopping overtaking manoeuvres by other drivers and noted the fuel used/time taken. The 50mph trip gave a significant improvement on all three counts.

 

It might be an urban myth but the police are supposed to have told the big operators not to stick to the 40 limit on the A9.

[wuvvum]

Trucks pull over to let traffic past? Sure, where, exactly? Not only are there not enough laybys anyway, councils are closing them hand over fist. There is almost nowhere for a truck to stop between starting point and destination. The UK road system has been criminally mismanaged for decades. And once Dave has pulled over, how does he rejoin? You seriously imagine ANY "driver" of an X5 is going to let him into the stream? NFW.

If a tractor & trailer can manage it, logically a truck should be able to as well (I'm talking about fairly major roads here, not country lanes where the tractor can pull onto the nearest patch of mud - I wouldn't expect a fully laden Axor to go off-roading). And again, if said tractor can rejoin the traffic stream (which presumably it can, or it wouldn't stop in the first place) then a truck, which is no slower off the line but has a terminal speed 15mph higher, shouldn't have too much of a problem. The worst road that I ever drive on for getting stuck behind lorries is the A17, and that has plenty of places to pull over (and very few to overtake).

[Lankytim]

 

Yeah, that's great, I'll just park up at 4pm and wait two hours for everyone else to go home. Then, after my son's in bed and my dinner's in the cat, I'll trundle back, getting home just in time to go to bed ready for another 5am start. No thanks.

 

Don't like it? Don't drive a truck.

 

 

You are forgetting that this problem of snail racing only pisses off car drivers, not truckers, so why should they park up and wait for all the motorists who cannot handle life on modern roads to get home?

 

Don't like it? Catch a train.

[eddyramrod]

Ceri, 5am? Bloody part-timer...

[warren t claim]

Sad to say it, but I love driving trucks for a living. Recently I've been double manning with another driver and clocking up 16 hour days for shitloads of overtime. Every day I go somewhere different and see parts of the country I've never seen before whilst getting paid for it. Wherever you live the chances are I've been within a few miles of your house sometime over the last 12 months. I've chased the midsummer setting sun up north to Scotland on the 21st of June, I've been treated like a hero for battling through blizzards in winter to deliver food to a CO-OP in the Lake District. The amount of grade 1 tat I see through my windscreen is phenomenal!

 

Life on the road suits me fine!

[eddyramrod]

Sad to say it, but I love driving trucks for a living. Recently I've been double manning with another driver and clocking up 16 hour days for shitloads of overtime. Every day I go somewhere different and see parts of the country I've never seen before whilst getting paid for it. Wherever you live the chances are I've been within a few miles of your house sometime over the last 12 months. I've chased the midsummer setting sun up north to Scotland on the 21st of June, I've been treated like a hero for battling through blizzards in winter to deliver food to a CO-OP in the Lake District. The amount of grade 1 tat I see through my windscreen is phenomenal!

 

Life on the road suits me fine!

 

Total agreement with most of that!

 

I have to pick on two points though. 1: overtime??? Who the fck are you working for, that pays actual overtime?

2: You haven't been past my house... (I know, facetious....)

[Justin Case]

I've never driven anything bigger than a Transit, but my sympathies are very much with the truckers. It can't be much fun driving any HGV on our pathetic and overcrowded road system. I've covered thousands of miles on Continental roads of all types, mainly in a coach (and it's nothing like Coach Trip thank God ) and the roads are so relatively empty that everyone seems to have enough space. Upgrade the roads by increasing their capacity, after all we pay enough in tax and the economy would benefit in any case; a few more motorway lanes and dual carriageways would soon cut the problem down to size

[warren t claim]

An HGV is rather like a big American car from the 1970s, i.e they may be a bit chintzy with velour and plastic wood trim but there's no more comfortable way of cruising along at 55mph for hundreds of miles a day. Aircon and electric sunroofs are now fitted as a matter of course these days along with surround sound stereos, cruise control and the most comfortable drivers seat you'll ever park your arse in.

[CreepingJesus]

A Scottish truck magazine did a test where they did a circuit including the A9. On the first day they stuck to 40 on the single carriageway sections, and on the second day they did 50. They counted the heart-stopping overtaking manoeuvres by other drivers and noted the fuel used/time taken. The 50mph trip gave a significant improvement on all three counts.

 

It might be an urban myth but the police are supposed to have told the big operators not to stick to the 40 limit on the A9.

 

Tried the first one myself, on the A1 between Berwick and Purdy Lodge, and found much the same. Used that stretch 'cos there's only one camera each way, and Northumbria police don't seem to mind too much.

There used to be 5 cameras each way between Perth and Inverness on the A9; now there's only one each way. Take from that what you will (they're both in Tayside's area fwiw). I'd heard that rumour too, how true it is, I know not. Let's just say, neither Tayside nor Highland's finest seem to mind either. Done that run for various companies, including all the supermarkets (except Sainsbury), and none of them ask how you got there and back in that time...

...Except for Tesco. They use the same 'Isotrak' system as Asda, but they will send a message intimating that they know what you've been up to. At some point in the near future, you'll be asked to explain yourself to the senior TM (also counts for deviating from the prescribed route), and the new digital tachos have only made them more fanatical.

Tesco now, in their infinite wisdom, have limited all trucks to 50mph (some CC's will only go to 49). Because 'The Tesco Way' is to drive at 48 tops; almost no-one obeyed it, so now in the name of fuel efficiency and road safety, 49/50 it is.

Strangely, Somerfield/Co-op's motors are limited to 53, which causes secondary problems in overtaking. Night before last, I got past a Tesco motor (with my extra 3mph) to find a PO motor waiting behind to pass me, with his further 3 extra. Thankfully, it was at 3am, but I can see what the consequences would be at 8am/5pm on that road. It wouldn't matter if the speed limit for cars was 70,80 or 180: they'd be bunching up.

If it's going to cause that kind of trouble, personally I don't do it. I do pull over on A-roads to let queues by (the A7/701/702 and A68 are good examples). But it's down to the driver's personal choice: whatever it says in the Highway Code, it isn't enforcable. On motorways, I'll sit in, and probly use the silent sixth down the hill to get by. I praise the days I get a motor with scads of power - overtaking effortlessly uphill! Cor...the luxury.

Yeek, this is a long one. To sum up...ish; I don't see the point of raising limits. The roads are in very poor condition, and a significant number of all drivers simply don't drive well enough to make it realistic.

And I really do not appreciate the threat of finding an Eastern European driver who'll do the job. Nothing against them, they're just bods looking for work, same as me: but I have lost work and hourly pay because of that kind of nonsense. And put in the same position as me, they'll take the same risks, make them same choices etc., etc. La plus ca change, eh?

[Pete-M]

Tesco now, in their infinite wisdom, have limited all trucks to 50mph (some CC's will only go to 49). Because 'The Tesco Way' is to drive at 48 tops; almost no-one obeyed it, so now in the name of fuel efficiency and road safety, 49/50 it is.

Strangely, Somerfield/Co-op's motors are limited to 53, which causes secondary problems in overtaking. Night before last, I got past a Tesco motor (with my extra 3mph) to find a PO motor waiting behind to pass me, with his further 3 extra. Thankfully, it was at 3am, but I can see what the consequences would be at 8am/5pm on that road. It wouldn't matter if the speed limit for cars was 70,80 or 180: they'd be bunching up.

If it's going to cause that kind of trouble, personally I don't do it. I do pull over on A-roads to let queues by (the A7/701/702 and A68 are good examples). But it's down to the driver's personal choice: whatever it says in the Highway Code, it isn't enforcable. On motorways, I'll sit in, and probly use the silent sixth down the hill to get by. I praise the days I get a motor with scads of power - overtaking effortlessly uphill! Cor...the luxury.

 

Right, this explains a lot.

 

At night the motorway network almost works, even though it's mainly trucks out there. I've noticed that at night even if there are two lanes of trucks they tend to flow reasonably well. I do appreciate that a lot of that is down to there being a lot less cars on the roads, but I've also noticed that the overtaking seems to work better for the wagons than it does during the day. I have never noticed Tesco trucks as being particularly slow, but I've not kept an eye out for it. I've seen the big Zeppelinesque trailers they use more than how fast they're going, but now I think about it I don't think I've ever seen one try to overtake anywhere other than through roadworks. If they're limited to 49 but have a bit of poke behind 'em then that'll be where they can hold their own.

 

You can imagine how much it pisses me off when I'm on the M6 heading north from Brum most nights, miles of tailbacks through from J11 in the 50 zone then ok to about J14 then the Snail GP from J15-17. Near enough every bloody night.

 

Yeek, this is a long one. To sum up...ish; I don't see the point of raising limits. The roads are in very poor condition, and a significant number of all drivers simply don't drive well enough to make it realistic.

And I really do not appreciate the threat of finding an Eastern European driver who'll do the job. Nothing against them, they're just bods looking for work, same as me: but I have lost work and hourly pay because of that kind of nonsense. And put in the same position as me, they'll take the same risks, make them same choices etc., etc. La plus ca change, eh?

 

I agree that there are a lot of bad drivers out there, I'm probably one of them as I don't hang about, but I don't tailgate, rarely brake unless I need to (leave enough distance to not have to brake a lot of the time), and try to keep as much lane discipline as possible (like most I do get pissed off with Lane 3 dawdlers who're doing the same speed as Lane 2 and have plenty of space to maintain it there). I'm not always in quick stuff either, towing the 604 with the Heep meant that 50 mph was about right for a fair bit of the trip, but any truck that wanted to pass was given room to do so as soon as possible and their life was made as easy as it could be. Fighting it out for 56 mph would have cost me more in fuel and patience than anything else anyway. I watch what is going on in the distance and use anticipation and experience to flow, in much the same way a good HGV driver would, I should think.

 

As for Polski Dave and his mates, it's not a threat, it's competition. Polski Dave can make that money go further than English Dave, and he can't make that money in Poland doing the same job. He's also used to staying out of the way of Klaus Porsche and Mikhail Mercedes doing 180 mph, so he's not gonna spend the day in L2 if he can possibly avoid it. It'd be easier to abolish UK motorway speed limits if everyone else did the same.

 

Irish Dave on the other hand.... he's still trying to work out what these limiter things are all about. His don't seem to work.

[Rhythm Thief]

Also, truckers have to stay in the 'slow' lane for long stretches and seem to get their overtaking done with the minimum of fuss on the bits where they're allowed to pass. Unlike our lot. The M6 near Sandbach seems to hold a 'slow overtaking' contest every weekday afternoon.

European truckers' lane discipline - especially in Germany - and the patience and mutual consideration of road users generally makes a huge difference to the flow of traffic. I drove to eastern Germany and back last summer, including Berlin-Koblenz in one hit, and there was no "elephant racing" at all.

 

 

I would say that elephant races annoy no one more than lorry drivers (not "truckers", incidentally ). None of us like being hung out to dry in the middle lane and personally, I knock my cruise control off, drop down to 50 or so and let whoever's overtaking me go. If only more lorry drivers did that, there'd be no problem.

[Rhythm Thief]

Trucks cause more congestion than anything else on the motorway, so it's trucks that are the problem.

 

Of course, there are roughly the same number of trucks going up and down the motorway network at night as there are during the day, but hardly any cars. Congestion is far worse during the day when the cars are around. Trucks may be the bricks in the wall, but cars are the mortar.

[Rhythm Thief]

This is where the problem lies. Dave doesn't give a toss about the people in cars, because Dave thinks that because he's in a HGV he's king of the road. Dave has a big heavy truck and those who drive cars aren't proper drivers, so Dave is gonna take from Stafford to Thelwall to overtake another truck because he can, and because the law doesn't have anything specific that can be used to stop him.

 

 

This is annoying, but it's not always the fault of the chap in the middle lane. I once started to overtake an Asda truck on the M6 at Stoke; he was doing 52 or so to my 56. I got to a point where the back wheels of my tractor unit were level with the front of his cab when he finished cleaning his ears out and put his foot down. There we both stayed until Wolverhampton. I couldn't slow down and drop back in behind him (which would have been my preferred option) because there were trucks right behind me, and he paid no attention whatever to my left hand indicator winking away at him. However annoyed anyone behind me was, they weren't as annoyed as I was ...

[chaseracer]

I don't encounter many lorries doing 40 on single carriageway roads, when I do it's usually supermarket lorries.

Indeed. The one I was stuck behind was from Tesco.

 

But my comment was less a rant, more an observation. I have no issue with individual truckies, just the sometimes inane and counterproductive regulations they have to comply with.

[retrogeezer]

This is where the problem lies. Dave doesn't give a toss about the people in cars, because Dave thinks that because he's in a HGV he's king of the road. Dave has a big heavy truck and those who drive cars aren't proper drivers, so Dave is gonna take from Stafford to Thelwall to overtake another truck because he can, and because the law doesn't have anything specific that can be used to stop him.

 

 

This is annoying, but it's not always the fault of the chap in the middle lane. I once started to overtake an Asda truck on the M6 at Stoke; he was doing 52 or so to my 56. I got to a point where the back wheels of my tractor unit were level with the front of his cab when he finished cleaning his ears out and put his foot down. There we both stayed until Wolverhampton. I couldn't slow down and drop back in behind him (which would have been my preferred option) because there were trucks right behind me, and he paid no attention whatever to my left hand indicator winking away at him. However annoyed anyone behind me was, they weren't as annoyed as I was ...

 

This is the whole point though isn't it......why bother overtaking in the first place?? The 4mph (max) difference in speed will make virtually zero journey time difference, you have proved that with your post. Stop at 2 sets of lights and you will have been held up for the same amount of time.

However, all the cars behind you that could have been doing 70 are now only doing 50 and you have caused a huge bunching up of traffic and then the possibility of rear end collisions from people not paying attention.

 

If all lorries are limited to 56 make them stay in lane 1 during the day would be my solution. And prosecute anyone deliberately doing less than 50 on the motorway like those old fogeys you see on police camera action.