Motorway speed limit

[AnthonyG]

I do agree that, as it is, the effective motorway speed limit is 80 anyway, raising the offical one to 80 will mean Audi drivers will do 90 everywere unless average speed cameras are operational.

 

I have to ask though - if the UK standard of driving is so shit compared to the Germans, French etc, why do why we have significantly lower fatality rates? IIRC only Sweden and Holland have 'safer' roads than us by this measure.

[Pete-M]

Driving an old vehicle that struggles to get to 60 I would not welcome any increase in the NSL - overtaking HGVS and slow vehicles is tough enough at present speeds but could be impossible if any faster.

!

 

I drove right across Europe a couple of years ago in an N reg LWB, hi top, non-Turbo Transit loaded to within about 15kg of its maximum load. Top speed reached was just over 70 mph, once. It was a doddle even on the properly high speed bits of Autobahn. Just maintain lane discipline and keep out of the way. Easy.

 

A month later I did a 1000km round trip from Czech to Frankfurt and back in the same van towing a car transporter trailer. Top speed reached on that trip was 62 mph. Even in a right hand drive van towing a loaded trailer at night in the rain after 15 hours on the road it was easy to avoid trouble by driving properly. Germans have proper lane discipline on the Autobahn, and because of that, they work. The 170 mph merchants do their bit when it's safe to do so.

 

Also, truckers have to stay in the 'slow' lane for long stretches and seem to get their overtaking done with the minimum of fuss on the bits where they're allowed to pass. Unlike our lot. The M6 near Sandbach seems to hold a 'slow overtaking' contest every weekday afternoon.

[Pete-M]

I have to ask though - if the UK standard of driving is so shit compared to the Germans, French etc, why do why we have significantly lower fatality rates? IIRC only Sweden and Holland have 'safer' roads than us by this measure.

 

Germans on motorways tend to be superb. The Dutch have the same amount of traffic as us and they do ok. Belgians can't drive. Italians only drive stylishly. French drive well when they're sober. All stereotypes, and from my experience, all true.

 

Czechs don't give a toss about speed limits. I've seen more 120 mph commutes there than in Germany, and the Czech Plod don't take kindly to it, but their cameras always get blown up so they only nick who they catch.

[chaseracer]

Also, truckers have to stay in the 'slow' lane for long stretches and seem to get their overtaking done with the minimum of fuss on the bits where they're allowed to pass. Unlike our lot. The M6 near Sandbach seems to hold a 'slow overtaking' contest every weekday afternoon.

European truckers' lane discipline - especially in Germany - and the patience and mutual consideration of road users generally makes a huge difference to the flow of traffic. I drove to eastern Germany and back last summer, including Berlin-Koblenz in one hit, and there was no "elephant racing" at all.

[Volksy]

IMO The Swiss are the worst I have encountered. Rude, impatient, never use indicators etc etc. Although I do live in a tourist resort that seems to remove part of each drivers brain the moment they arrive here.

My car is locally registered, so the tourists think I'm a loony , although the bus is on VD (lease/hire) plates, so seems to get more stick off the locals, including two parking hit and runs...

[Guest]

I may have misread the above but surely if you saw a truck in the left hand lane you'd indicate and pull into the middle lane in plenty of time not to have to worry about slowing down then accelerating again?

The key point I mean is in moderate traffic, it wouldn't matter in light traffic (where you're given loads more time to do everything). Say for example, you come straight off the sliproad and you're between two lorries. You want to get into the middle lane, but there's a steady stream of traffic in your mirror. You're doing 56mph, the cars in the middle are doing 80mph. Whilst you might not need to get up to the full 80mph to get into that lane safely, you still need to find most of it to get into the available gaps without anyone having to brake. You could try backing off to leave a bigger gap for you to accelerate through, but then someone might just slot in front of you and you're back to square one.

 

This leaves a situation in which people in the slow lane are "stuck" there, or they just pull out into the middle lane who have to brake (because there wasn't enough room/time to match their speed). This already happens, but increasing the limit would add another 10mph onto the lane difference as it is pretty much guaranteed that most people in the middle would feel obligated to do 80mph to avoid tailgating. The problem isn't the overall speed, it's keeping them closely matched. Increasing the speeds of lorries by 10mph would fix that, but I'm doubtful of that being a good idea either.

 

I think given the amount of congestion we have on our motorway system, a loosely-enforced 70mph is about as good a balance as can be found. If they put it up to 80mph, I would put money on there being more accidents. Obviously a motorway with an accident defeats the object of being on it in the first place. In any case, the real time saving between 70 and 80mph is negligible really.

[eddyramrod]

The problem with trucks on motorways is that these are the vehicles the roads were originally designed for. The idea was to take freight out of the railway system, which could then be trimmed, as indeed it was. Unfortunately everyone then decided they wanted to take their cars on these lovely wide smooth roads, resulting in the congestion issues we have today. The problem was compounded when UK-market trucks started being capable of some quite alarming speeds; HMG's answer was to require rev-limiters, to be set at 90 kmh. That equates to 56 mph, and is a perfect lullaby speed. The harmonics in HGV cabs at that speed will send the driver to sleep.

 

An unladen truck will shoot up to the rev limit and sit there happily as long as nothing gets in the way. In fact it'll be perfectly capable of sitting at 70, as foreign trucks prove hundreds of times a day. A fully-loaded truck will most likely struggle up to the rev limit, and even on cruise control will probably be doing 55.3 or so. Why then do we see trucks passing each other? Because the driver of the empty truck, doing 56, is 12 hours into his statutorily-limited 9 hour shift and has at least 90 minutes more to do before he can get home, so he wants to get there. Unlike shop or office workers he can't just lock the door and walk away, because he's 50 miles from base and stuck on a road with nowhere to stop (parking facilities being at best woeful, at worst dangerous). He also has a hundred grand's worth of company machinery around him for which he is responsible, and which the boss will be expecting back so it can be loaded up for tomorrow. He'd love to haul up to 70 to pass the loaded truck, but he certainly isn't going to sit tailgating for the rest of the other guy's journey.

 

As it happens I agree with the comments about UK lane discipline. It has ceased to exist, even assuming it ever did. Car drivers repeatedly exhibit a lack of understanding of the basic physics of trucks; I lost count years ago of the 3-series BMWs that leapt into my braking space on busy motorways, usually without warning (and they were nearly always a 3; probably 95%). What does a 318 weigh? Bit over a tonne? Less? My ERF weighed 12 tonnes even without a load. Yeah, go on, take my braking space, I'll still stop. On top of you, without even feeling the bump.

 

OK, anyone want to guess what I did for a living for many years?

[warren t claim]

The problem with trucks on motorways is that these are the vehicles the roads were originally designed for. The idea was to take freight out of the railway system, which could then be trimmed, as indeed it was. Unfortunately everyone then decided they wanted to take their cars on these lovely wide smooth roads, resulting in the congestion issues we have today. The problem was compounded when UK-market trucks started being capable of some quite alarming speeds; HMG's answer was to require rev-limiters, to be set at 90 kmh. That equates to 56 mph, and is a perfect lullaby speed. The harmonics in HGV cabs at that speed will send the driver to sleep.

 

An unladen truck will shoot up to the rev limit and sit there happily as long as nothing gets in the way. In fact it'll be perfectly capable of sitting at 70, as foreign trucks prove hundreds of times a day. A fully-loaded truck will most likely struggle up to the rev limit, and even on cruise control will probably be doing 55.3 or so. Why then do we see trucks passing each other? Because the driver of the empty truck, doing 56, is 12 hours into his statutorily-limited 9 hour shift and has at least 90 minutes more to do before he can get home, so he wants to get there. Unlike shop or office workers he can't just lock the door and walk away, because he's 50 miles from base and stuck on a road with nowhere to stop (parking facilities being at best woeful, at worst dangerous). He also has a hundred grand's worth of company machinery around him for which he is responsible, and which the boss will be expecting back so it can be loaded up for tomorrow. He'd love to haul up to 70 to pass the loaded truck, but he certainly isn't going to sit tailgating for the rest of the other guy's journey.

 

As it happens I agree with the comments about UK lane discipline. It has ceased to exist, even assuming it ever did. Car drivers repeatedly exhibit a lack of understanding of the basic physics of trucks; I lost count years ago of the 3-series BMWs that leapt into my braking space on busy motorways, usually without warning (and they were nearly always a 3; probably 95%). What does a 318 weigh? Bit over a tonne? Less? My ERF weighed 12 tonnes even without a load. Yeah, go on, take my braking space, I'll still stop. On top of you, without even feeling the bump.

 

OK, anyone want to guess what I did for a living for many years?

 

Scrap HGV speed limiters and you cure the problem.

 

Setting a speed limiter way below the maximum permitted speed was always going to cause problems.

[eddyramrod]

PRECISELY!

[Skizzer]

I've spent quite a chunk of time on various European motorways over the years and I've gradually come to the view that the standard of driving is not very high on any of them - it's just that different countries seem to be bad in different ways. The Germans tailgate terribly, as do the Belgians and Dutch; Brits have no lane discipline (and seem to be importing the tailgating with the German cars); the French pull out without looking (and only then start indicating). The Italians and Spanish do some of the above but actually aren't too bad on the autostrada (I've only driven in the north of both countries and hear it gets worse further down).

 

I don't know where you lot are finding these uncongested German motorways by the way, but they sure aren't anywhere near Hamburg, the Ruhr or Cologne/Duesseldorf.

 

I'm in the camp that says pull more people over for shit driving, not photograph technical speed infringements on empty roads. And it seems pretty stupid that not only is motorway driving not tested, you can't even have a lesson on a motorway until after your test - and how many people take an additional motorway lesson after their test? (Actually I did, and I learned a lot.)

 

I'm with you guys (Messrs Ramrod and Claim) on truck speeds, for what it's worth. It's not speed itself that is dangerous, it's things doing significantly different speeds in a confined space. Less difference, less danger.

[dollywobbler]

You want to get into the middle lane, but there's a steady stream of traffic in your mirror. You're doing 56mph, the cars in the middle are doing 80mph. Whilst you might not need to get up to the full 80mph to get into that lane safely, you still need to find most of it to get into the available gaps without anyone having to brake.

 

This leaves a situation in which people in the slow lane are "stuck" there.

 

This is already a HUGE problem for the Tin Snail. The amount of times I get 'mugged' by faster stuff irritates the f*ck out of me. I see a gap behind me, put my foot down and by the time I go for the gap, some modern thing has come belting up behind me, nipped into the next lane and pinched my gap. Pull out early to block this manoeuvre and they nip up your inside, carving you up.

 

As for motorways across Europe, having driven the 2CV through four countries (France, Luxembourg, Belgium, Britain) in one day (over 600 miles) on motorways, the only problem we had was in Blighty when (ironically really) a German truck almost wiped us out on a slip-road!

[wuvvum]

This is already a HUGE problem for the Tin Snail. The amount of times I get 'mugged' by faster stuff irritates the f*ck out of me. I see a gap behind me, put my foot down and by the time I go for the gap, some modern thing has come belting up behind me, nipped into the next lane and pinched my gap. Pull out early to block this manoeuvre and they nip up your inside, carving you up.

I have similar problems in the Innocenti, which isn't that much quicker than a 2CV - it's probably worse in some ways as most people out there know that a 2CV is slow, but nobody has a clue what the Innocenti is, and as it looks vaguely "modern" people tend to assume it's going to perform like any other car on the road. They don't seem to realise that the fact that I'm doing 65 on an uphill section of dual carriageway is not because I'm being awkward but because that is all the car is capable of. I think if the speed limit were raised, motorways would become a no-go zone for the Innocenti as far as I'm concerned.

[chaseracer]

If Wotsisface ToryBloke is serious about everyone getting where they're going as speedily and efficiently as possible, adjusting upward the speed governors on trucks would, as previously argued, be a good start. But not just on motorways, please. This afternoon, I was #4 in a line of traffic - which stretched as far as I could see in my mirror - behind an artic limited to 40 on the A51, a road not noted for its overtaking opportunities.

 

The Anti-Destination League is alive and well...

[Pete-M]

A simple bluetooth type gubbin attached to the tacho system and trucks passing each other for more than a certain amount of time would put an identifying marker onto the digitacho reading which would then be used to prosecute both drivers.

 

That'd improve the motorway network more than widening it at some points, leaving more of it free for everyone else to enjoy a nice high speed, 100 mph limit (to start with) motorway.

[fiatdaft]

and keep trucks to the inside lane during the busy times ,like they do on the continent.

[warren t claim]

If the speed limit was raised to 80 and every car speed limited to 76mph how fast would you drive?????

[messerschmitt owner]

If the speed limit was raised to 80 and every car speed limited to 76mph how fast would you drive?????

I'd drive a shiter cos they couldn't retrospectively speed limit the cars!

[Pete-M]

If the speed limit was raised to 80 and every car speed limited to 76mph how fast would you drive?????

 

Depends on the vehicle, load etc. If the car I'm driving isn't very quick up hills I let other, better climbing, ones pass rather than hold up everyone else on the road. If I'm driving one of the quicker ones I'd be doing the passing but only when I know I can pass in a reasonably small amount of time. If I'm mumbling along the motorway and there's a truck doing the 56 mph overtake I'll slow to let it past and in front of me and then match its speed until I find a good place to pass it quickly if needs be.

[worldofceri]

Getting trucks off the motorway at peak times works.

 

Yeah, that's great, I'll just park up at 4pm and wait two hours for everyone else to go home. Then, after my son's in bed and my dinner's in the cat, I'll trundle back, getting home just in time to go to bed ready for another 5am start. No thanks.

 

A simple bluetooth type gubbin attached to the tacho system and trucks passing each other for more than a certain amount of time would put an identifying marker onto the digitacho reading which would then be used to prosecute both drivers.

 

Prosecute? For what?

 

It would take just one day behind the wheel of an HGV for you to totally rethink your attitude to lorries and their drivers.

[dollywobbler]

It does work though Ceri - a lot of German autobahn restricts trucks to one lane only. And I don't think there's any excuse for covering mile after mile at exactly the same speed as the truck next to you. Either truck needs to lift - it doesn't take much. I learnt that from behind the wheel of a truck as it happens.

 

EDIT - you do make a good point though. I can't help thinking driving standards would improve if everyone had to drive a truck for a bit...

[eddyramrod]

Yeah, fine, let's over-regulate the trucks even more. Let's make it harder and harder for the underpaid unappreciated bloke to do an honest day's work. Let's see how you manage without the goods those trucks are carrying!

 

Some people are as short-sighted as politicians... Remember this: Everything that Everybody owns has been transported on a truck for at least part of the journey from source to user. And you are the user.

 

Now complain about the trucks, as you sit in your comfy chair (delivered on a truck) drinking your coffee (delivered on a truck) from your mug (you might be getting the idea now) and watch your 56" telly (guess how that came?).

 

Motorways were designed for trucks. Cars are the intruders. Get out of the way and let the workers work.

[dollywobbler]

Motorways were designed for trucks. Cars are the intruders. Get out of the way and let the workers work.

 

You know, I've often wondered why we DON'T have a dual-motorway system. Keep the trucks and cars separate in the same way that the Japanese keep their freight and passenger railways separate. Guess the small size of our overcrowded nation means that's unlikely...

[Pete-M]

 

Yeah, that's great, I'll just park up at 4pm and wait two hours for everyone else to go home. Then, after my son's in bed and my dinner's in the cat, I'll trundle back, getting home just in time to go to bed ready for another 5am start. No thanks.

 

Don't like it? Don't drive a truck.

 

Prosecute? For what?

 

It would take just one day behind the wheel of an HGV for you to totally rethink your attitude to lorries and their drivers.

 

I'd prosecute truck drivers for overtaking without due care and consideration. New offence.

 

I've spent loads of time driving 7.5 tonners (which I know aren't the same), and I've spent a fair few days riding in HGVs (a couple of my mates drive 'em) and I appreciate that they're not easy things to drive, that they don't stop well etc etc etc.

 

However, if you can't appreciate when you take the decision to drive one of the bloody things for a living that this may mean you're not going to be home every night in time to watch Eggheads then you may have chosen the wrong line of work. I do around 1000 miles a week at the moment, and I get home when I get home. If the likelyhood of not being able to get home every night was an issue, then I'd find work nearer to my house and I wouldn't do a job which involves travelling far from home..

[worldofceri]

It does work though Ceri - a lot of German autobahn restricts trucks to one lane only. And I don't think there's any excuse for covering mile after mile at exactly the same speed as the truck next to you. Either truck needs to lift - it doesn't take much. I learnt that from behind the wheel of a truck as it happens.

 

Then you'll know it's often not as simple as it seems. Lorries can be badly affected by gradients that most cars wouldn't notice and it's very difficult to second guess how heavily-laden and/or powerful another lorry is. Misjudge it and you can be crawling up a climb at 25mph because you didn't pull out to overtake or sat side-by-side with another lorry, both at 50mph, because you did.

 

Oh and good luck joining or leaving the M1 at rush hour when every lorry on it is nose to tail in lane 1.

[Pete-M]

Oh and good luck joining or leaving the M1 at rush hour when every lorry on it is nose to tail in lane 1.

 

Another use for driving without due care and consideration

 

*Dammit, that'll be two new offences.

[dollywobbler]

Very true Ceri - but I also drive a 2CV, so I'm very used to experiencing the distress of gradient that other vehicles don't notice in the slightest. But I used to get held up by the not-quite-overtaking trucks on the A14 regularly. That isn't a road known for its hills.

[worldofceri]

However, if you can't appreciate when you take the decision to drive one of the bloody things for a living that this may mean you're not going to be home every night in time to watch Eggheads then you may have chosen the wrong line of work. I do around 1000 miles a week at the moment, and I get home when I get home. If the likelyhood of not being able to get home every night was an issue, then I'd find work nearer to my house and I wouldn't do a job which involves travelling far from home..

 

I absolutely do appreciate that. But I don't think it's reasonable to legislate in such a way that I'm banned from the roads just so everyone else's journey into work is unimpeded. You want to be in the office on time? Get up earlier. For those that haven't tried it, 4am is a brilliant time of day to commute.

[eddyramrod]

Where we made our big mistake was in chopping up the railway system. It can't even be reinstated really, as a lot of the land has been sold and built on over the 45 years or so since the tracks were torn up. What's left doesn't go to where goods and people actually need to be, so the goods are sent by road and the people travel the same way. There is no sense in using the railways for only part of the journey, as that means the goods have to be loaded and unloaded (often by hand, not always practical) which adds time and risk. So you load it all on a truck and it doesn't need to be unloaded until it gets to where it's needed. The whole thing can be done by three men, unlike trains which require gangs; it can all take place on public roads, unlike trains which require special huge yards; already the rail-borne distribution costs are adding up.

 

It might help if people would have the sense to live near where they work (and yes, I was guilty too) but that isn't always realistic.

 

I still say, enforcing some lane discipline and turning up the rev limiters would make so much difference.

 

"However, if you can't appreciate when you take the decision to drive one of the bloody things for a living that this may mean you're not going to be home every night in time to watch Eggheads then you may have chosen the wrong line of work." Go on then Pete, tell me how you'll manage without the goods. Any goods, choose a commodity, I don't care. It all comes by truck, as I said earlier. Who's going to put it in the shops for you to buy? The telly fairy? The coffee fairy? The coffee fairy's name is Dave, he has a wife and kids he would like to see once in a while, and when he gets to 45 years old he has to renew his licence at his own expense, including a medical also at his own expense. If he has a boss who will cover these, he's an exception. Investors In People?

And what other career would you advise Dave to take up? Brain surgery? Estate agency?

[Pete-M]

Motorways were designed for trucks. Cars are the intruders.

 

I've only ever heard this argument coming from truckists, never actually seen any documented facts to prove it.

 

Motorways were originally designed to cope with vehicles travelling at around 100 mph, which in the late 1950s was a somewhat unusual feat for a family car, never mind a fully laden Foden or ERF.

 

Trucks cause more congestion than anything else on the motorway, so it's trucks that are the problem.

[warren t claim]

Because we all want products from the supermarket as cheaply as possible all the major supermarkets work on a "just in time" delivery system. If you miss your delivery slot to one of their distribution centres then you can be turned away. Backing off the cruise control can sometimes mean missing your slot and incurring penalties for the haulier.

 

When I was learning to drive my instructor described the middle lane of a motorway as the "HGV overtaking lane". Car and van drivers have the outside lane all to themselves so if you can't make progress the blame the car blocking lane 3.

 

There's a downhill section of the M62 where HGVs can roll upto 65/70mph and you'd be surprised to lean that there's very little bunching of trucks on that section and AFAIK the accident rate is no different on that stretch of motorway.

 

DON'T BLAME THE TRUCK DRIVERS! BLAME THE EUROPEAN POLITICIANS FOR INTRODUCING SPEED LIMITERS!!!

 

I'm surprised we haven't had a rant about us driving at 40mph on 60mph single carriageway A roads yet.