A series budget engine rebuild

[Talbot]

3 hours ago, lisbon_road said:

I think we have a time served machinist here @Talbot

I've done some machine work in the past, for a few years building race engines.  Not exactly "time served" but I appreciate the thought!

Those engine parts.:  Pistons are definitely quite badly scored and will need renewing.  It's then very much up to your finances as to whether you go down the re-bore-and-oversize-pistons route, or just give the bores a good hone and go with standard size.  If you do get a re-bore, that removes any concern over wear.  The bores don't look too bad at all, but it can be difficult to see on a photo.  Is there much of a wear-ridge at the top of the bore where the top compression ring stops?  That's usually a good measure of how worn a bore is.

The crank.. again is hard to tell without seeing in person.  There's definitly some scoring on it.  How bad are the bearing shells?  if all the white metal has gone and you're down to the copper, it's likely the crank will have gone a bit undersize and it'll need an undersize grind and oversize shells.  Again, is there a ridge between the bearing surface and the oilway area?  In general, if you can feel it with a fingernail, it's fooked.  If your nail glides over without snagging, then it's fine.

The machining prices you've quoted so far are really quite reasonable.  Can you get over-size pistons for a decent price too?

[Stinkwheel]

This was a 1098 right? If so, pistons...

https://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Block/Piston_liners_Rings/P20397-20.aspx?100110&ReturnUrl=/shop/classic/Engine/Block/Piston~liners~Rings.aspx|Back to shop

 

[garellikatia]

9 hours ago, tooSavvy said:

@garellikatia.. "I've also asked on a well know mini forum. Great to get as many opinions ,and loving the learning process!"

Good on you 👍

You'll never be short of 'enthusiasm for spending other people's dosh' 🤣

Among all the wise words will be nuggets of true vision..... THEY will save you a pile ££ 😉

..... I've knocked up my fair share of IMP motors, using scrappy salvaged parts. Rebored @930cc with scrap pistons .. £60 all 4.

Cord ridge-dodgers rings fitted [upside down] in the pistons as they were much cheaper than stock...

Ahh....... I'm well past all that now, AVAS!

🚙💨

 

Wow that sounds a load of fun. Im always reminiscent of the past. Things always seemed better back in the day.  Remember when you could actually just walk around a scrap yard and actually pick what you wanted and taken a load of bits to the counter at the end haha fun times 

[EyesWeldedShut]

21 minutes ago, garellikatia said:

Wow that sounds a load of fun. Im always reminiscent of the past. Things always seemed better back in the day.  Remember when you could actually just walk around a scrap yard and actually pick what you wanted and taken a load of bits to the counter at the end haha fun times 

Places I used to frequent started searching your 'toolbox' on the way out, then they banned toolboxes, then they all went to 'take off' only (H&S innit M8)
Thing is, I'd wander in looking for some shite part like a battery tray or a door handle and walk out with that, plus an exhaust, a bellhousing and, maybe, a dipstick.
Fun times indeed.

[garellikatia]

7 hours ago, Talbot said:

I've done some machine work in the past, for a few years building race engines.  Not exactly "time served" but I appreciate the thought!

Those engine parts.:  Pistons are definitely quite badly scored and will need renewing.  It's then very much up to your finances as to whether you go down the re-bore-and-oversize-pistons route, or just give the bores a good hone and go with standard size.  If you do get a re-bore, that removes any concern over wear.  The bores don't look too bad at all, but it can be difficult to see on a photo.  Is there much of a wear-ridge at the top of the bore where the top compression ring stops?  That's usually a good measure of how worn a bore is.

The crank.. again is hard to tell without seeing in person.  There's definitly some scoring on it.  How bad are the bearing shells?  if all the white metal has gone and you're down to the copper, it's likely the crank will have gone a bit undersize and it'll need an undersize grind and oversize shells.  Again, is there a ridge between the bearing surface and the oilway area?  In general, if you can feel it with a fingernail, it's fooked.  If your nail glides over without snagging, then it's fine.

The machining prices you've quoted so far are really quite reasonable.  Can you get over-size pistons for a decent price too?

Really appreciate your help mate. I've decided I'm probably going to go for a rebore then. The cost isn't too expensive,  and I guess will net me a couple of BHP with a good flowing head. 

Pistons are around £250 it seems, for oversized ones although I've checked with the local classic car parts place and they confirm they're the same size as morris minors and midgets in the 1098 variant. 

As for the crank, the bearings seem really good and not hardly worn. So after your advice I'm still on the fence. I will set up the DTI at some point and check for any intolerance in the lobes.

For some reason the crank grinding seems like the most expensive job, when I've called around they seem to be around £180 near me. I've also noticed not many machine shops offer crank grinding any more. 

 

[garellikatia]

8 hours ago, Stinkwheel said:

This was a 1098 right? If so, pistons...

https://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Block/Piston_liners_Rings/P20397-20.aspx?100110&ReturnUrl=/shop/classic/Engine/Block/Piston~liners~Rings.aspx|Back to shop

 

Yes they're the ones, thanks mate 

[garellikatia]

1 hour ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

Places I used to frequent started searching your 'toolbox' on the way out, then they banned toolboxes, then they all went to 'take off' only (H&S innit M8)
Thing is, I'd wander in looking for some shite part like a battery tray or a door handle and walk out with that, plus an exhaust, a bellhousing and, maybe, a dipstick.
Fun times indeed.

Absolutely,  you'd always end up leaving either more .... you might as well get a spare exhaust.... just in case

[Matty]

13 hours ago, garellikatia said:

Block and a few other grubby bits have been in a Caustic solution for 12 hours now. Will probably end up having the jet wash it properly clean to remove the sludge but it seems to be working OK. 

 

 

 

Flash bugger. I wire wheeled mine back to bare metal (I like the misery)

[garellikatia]

2 hours ago, Matty said:

Flash bugger. I wire wheeled mine back to bare metal (I like the misery)

Looks lovely!! I love the mowog green colour! What is the disc looking thing on the far left? Is that the oil filter housing? 

[Matty]

9 minutes ago, garellikatia said:

Looks lovely!! I love the mowog green colour! What is the disc looking thing on the far left? Is that the oil filter housing? 

It's a later 1275 block from a Marina but with 1275 midget internals (stronger crank and rods). Marina blocks had the filter up where you've identified. Absolute fuck on for oil changes as even with the quickest hands it pisses oil all over the dizzy 🤣  

[Merryck]

I think I've got a set of 1098 pistons knocking around somewhere. I'll have a look.

[tooSavvy]

9 hours ago, Matty said:

Marina blocks had the filter up where you've identified. Absolute fuck on for oil changes as even with the quickest hands it pisses oil all over the dizzy 🤣  

Hmm.... I have just popped my cherry, with Vx 'screw canister' oil filter 🙄.

I'm impressed with the concept, however 'snapping out the old filter' *should be done in an old rag...

*or OIL splatters all over YOU + grille 😕.

Keep it up 👍

🚙💨

 

[warninglight]

On 30/10/2024 at 14:53, comfortablynumb said:

Following with interest.

We've just discovered that a 'rebuilt' 998 engine that's in the van mk2 son is putting back together doesn't have any oil pressure 🥺

Looks like we'll be using you as a Haynes manual then......

Does it have a new oil pump? 15 years ago I refreshed the 1098 in my Austin 1100, and couldn't get any oil pressure. After a 'few' weekends home from uni, engine out, strip and rebuild, back in on Sunday, and repeat... I found that the new oil pumps were slightly thinner, so the original 3 oil pump bolts would torque up into the block, but were bottoming out before squeezing the oil pump gasket, allowing it to pump air. 

Pop the big nut off at the top of the oil gallery, pour some oil in there to prime and get it turning over. If you don't get any squirting out I'd be checking that.

[Merryck]

1 hour ago, warninglight said:

Does it have a new oil pump? 15 years ago I refreshed the 1098 in my Austin 1100, and couldn't get any oil pressure. After a 'few' weekends home from uni, engine out, strip and rebuild, back in on Sunday, and repeat... I found that the new oil pumps were slightly thinner, so the original 3 oil pump bolts would torque up into the block, but were bottoming out before squeezing the oil pump gasket, allowing it to pump air. 

Pop the big nut off at the top of the oil gallery, pour some oil in there to prime and get it turning over. If you don't get any squirting out I'd be checking that.

Are you serious? I reckon that’s what killed the 1098 in the Midget. We couldn’t work out what had happened as everything looked good (except for the crank, which looked like it had been running without oil).

Definitely good to know for future reference!

[comfortablynumb]

Thanks for advice @warninglight, I've passed it on, he's going out to check and I'll let everyone know what the outcome is.

I'd have never thought of that in a million years!

[Matty]

47 minutes ago, comfortablynumb said:

Thanks for advice @warninglight, I've passed it on, he's going out to check and I'll let everyone know what the outcome is.

I'd have never thought of that in a million years!

When I built mine utter paranoia had me checking all the new parts against the old!

[comfortablynumb]

Years ago, I sold a 2 litre pinto to a mate, who rebuilt it for a Capri.

He had no compression, so I went round to see if I could help.

"Its got new rings!"

Like the ones sitting on the bench?

Ah, yeah that'll be it then🤦

[warninglight]

5 hours ago, Merryck said:

Are you serious? I reckon that’s what killed the 1098 in the Midget. We couldn’t work out what had happened as everything looked good (except for the crank, which looked like it had been running without oil).

Definitely good to know for future reference!

Yep - spent my meagre savings and a few consecutive weekends as a student trying to fathom that.

Eventually speaking to a chap who had been building rally Minis for years, he told me to check that. Shortened each oil pump bolt by a couple of threads and instantly sorted. Well not instantly, it's a prick of a job to haul the engine out, take the flywheel off etc etc. I had it down to a fine art, when I swapped back to the original rebuilt engine from the tired used one for the last time, I had the engine out on the floor whilst still too hot to touch.

[New POD]

8 hours ago, warninglight said:

Does it have a new oil pump? 15 years ago I refreshed the 1098 in my Austin 1100, and couldn't get any oil pressure. After a 'few' weekends home from uni, engine out, strip and rebuild, back in on Sunday, and repeat... I found that the new oil pumps were slightly thinner, so the original 3 oil pump bolts would torque up into the block, but were bottoming out before squeezing the oil pump gasket, allowing it to pump air. 

Pop the big nut off at the top of the oil gallery, pour some oil in there to prime and get it turning over. If you don't get any squirting out I'd be checking that.

Aren't you supposed to fill them with grease on assembly. Or did I dream that. 

[New POD]

22 hours ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

Places I used to frequent started searching your 'toolbox' on the way out, then they banned toolboxes, then they all went to 'take off' only (H&S innit M8)
Thing is, I'd wander in looking for some shite part like a battery tray or a door handle and walk out with that, plus an exhaust, a bellhousing and, maybe, a dipstick.
Fun times indeed.

I am too honest. I'd go in for something unobtainable on a Sunday afternoon, spot something else but my Methodist upbringing wouldn't allow me to lose it in my tool box so I'd be asking the owner how much and they'd quote me a price far in excess of the value of a new one, so I'd decline and leave with just the part I was desperate for. They probably threw it in the bin. 

[tooSavvy]

The old joke "What did you bring back from your tour, your Majesty?"

"6 wire coat hangers!"

.... Scrapyard version....

"6 brake/stop lamp bulbs!" 👍

🚙💨

[garellikatia]

Cheers so far for all the help chaps,  not a great deal of progress over the last couple of days.

I did buy a few goodies. Including a 1000lb engine stand for a measly £45. I can't believe how solid it is and how something can cost so little knowing it's come half way across the world. I'm going to make or find some spacers to allow me to fit the plate to it properly as I don't trust just the oil filter housing nuts to hold the whole weight of the block. 

The block its self is looking nicer and I stuck an old gear cable on a drill and spun it around knocking quite a bit of crud out. 

I've got some soda crystals so I will be trying a bit of electrolysis tonight to see of that cab shift some rust out of the water galleries. 

 

Ive had a look at pistons and if i need to buy some ive seen some +0.020 ones in Greece  ebay, for £100 posted. Id take a punt on them but im worried id be hit with some kind of import tax. They have already added VAT on their end, but im unsure if anything else would be added. Theyre under the £139 threshold,  but still not sure. 

For a little bit more I can get 0.080+ flat top ones, but I don't want this spiralling into a 3k engine build its meant to be fairly budget 😂 

[Merryck]

@garellikatia I had a look at my mum's today but couldn't see them. I'll have a look in the shed tomorrow and see if I can dig them out. I can picture the fuckers, they're in a carrier bag and have the rod caps cable tied in place.

I also have the majority of parts for a Midget 1098 (the one with the oil starvation issue) and a set of core plugs. If there are any bits you might need from that let me know and I'll see if I can find them.

[EyesWeldedShut]

13 hours ago, New POD said:

I am too honest. I'd go in for something unobtainable on a Sunday afternoon, spot something else but my Methodist upbringing wouldn't allow me to lose it in my tool box so I'd be asking the owner how much and they'd quote me a price far in excess of the value of a new one, so I'd decline and leave with just the part I was desperate for. They probably threw it in the bin. 

Went into a scrappy in Rugby (may have been either the old Truckbusters or a site next door to it) around 1998 where I was gradually stripping an ex-council Landie Ser 2a which had remarkably straight body panels (albeit bright yellow). I was walking out with a complete set of v.rare sill panels when I espied an SD1 V8, popped the bonnet to find a set of K&N air filters on top of the engine.
On the way out the guy on the desk priced them the same as a new set - sod that. 

The V8 109" they would have been for blew a gearbox shortly thereafter in any case  

[garellikatia]

14 hours ago, Merryck said:

@garellikatia I had a look at my mum's today but couldn't see them. I'll have a look in the shed tomorrow and see if I can dig them out. I can picture the fuckers, they're in a carrier bag and have the rod caps cable tied in place.

I also have the majority of parts for a Midget 1098 (the one with the oil starvation issue) and a set of core plugs. If there are any bits you might need from that let me know and I'll see if I can find them.

Ah thank you I appreciate that. Cheers 

[garellikatia]

Had the block in the 'electrolysis tub" over night. Really pulled some rust from it. I've put it back in this morning to see how much more I can get out of the water galleries.

I've also inspected my 1275 head a bit more as that's another viable option if I dont go with the 12g202

The 1275 head should fit With a standard camshaft. With a high lift cam or rockers the exhaust valves would hit the block.

I'd either have to pocket the block or recess the valves in the head. Worked out the CC of the Chambers and the head thickness and deck height. 

All standard so not messed with. I'd obviously have to dry build the engine to work out valve lift of the 1098 cam to see whether I need to work on the  block or head. 

[garellikatia]

Looking a lot better now, might give it a coat of acid etch just to stop it flash rusting in the mean time

[MiniMinorMk3]

4 hours ago, garellikatia said:

Had the block in the 'electrolysis tub" over night. Really pulled some rust from it. I've put it back in this morning to see how much more I can get out of the water galleries.

I've also inspected my 1275 head a bit more as that's another viable option if I dont go with the 12g202

The 1275 head should fit With a standard camshaft. With a high lift cam or rockers the exhaust valves would hit the block.

I'd either have to pocket the block or recess the valves in the head. Worked out the CC of the Chambers and the head thickness and deck height. 

All standard so not messed with. I'd obviously have to dry build the engine to work out valve lift of the 1098 cam to see whether I need to work on the  block or head. 

 

 

You will need to pocket the block even with standard cam and rockers for the 12G940 1275cc head.

The 12G202 is the same head that was fitted to the 997 Cooper. In standard for it has a chamber volume of 26.1cc

Identification by casting number

TECHNICAL INFO

Clicking on th eabove link will probably result in a lot of time lost due to all the rabbit holes it will send you down, but there is a wealth of information to be found on there.

[warninglight]

On 02/11/2024 at 18:21, New POD said:

Aren't you supposed to fill them with grease on assembly. Or did I dream that. 

Vaseline was the recommended, from memory.

Another option to prime the pump on an A series is to remove the oil gallery nut (13/16"?) and pour some oil down to the pump just before turning over.

[garellikatia]

On 03/11/2024 at 15:42, MiniMinorMk3 said:

You will need to pocket the block even with standard cam and rockers for the 12G940 1275cc head.

The 12G202 is the same head that was fitted to the 997 Cooper. In standard for it has a chamber volume of 26.1cc

Identification by casting number

TECHNICAL INFO

Clicking on th eabove link will probably result in a lot of time lost due to all the rabbit holes it will send you down, but there is a wealth of information to be found on there.

Thanks mate I've been trauling through the articles. Particularly the 1098 build one.