Anybody know the owner of this Porsche?

[Mr Pastry]

4 hours ago, IronStar said:

Disclaimer: Not UK national nor living in the UK. This is from the stuff I've read online as the subject was interesting to me before this thread.

Wouldn't that give the proper owner a "take a look at your car" call? Additionally, you'd have the previous owner's info on V5 allowing you to tell him that the council wants to tow his car / you have his car and want to give it back to him (cross out the wrong option).

If you actually wanted the car, isn't there a "reasonable attempts to locate the owner" threshold that needs to be passed before you can claim it as yours? There's that story of a guy that claimed E24 from the council garage. He really wanted to give it back, but couldn't get a hold of the owner, so he ended up keeping it.

In the UK at least, the registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner.

If you apply for a V5 for any car, the DVLA will contact the registered keeper and ask them if they still have it.  If there is no reply within (I think) one month and the car isn't marked as stolen or scrapped,  then in most cases the DVLA will issue you with a new V5 in your name.    This makes you the registered keeper, but not the owner.  If the legal owner reappears at any time, he is fully entitled to take the car back.

So it's best not to get involved, really.

[loserone]

1 minute ago, Mr Pastry said:

This makes you the registered keeper, but not the owner.  If the legal owner reappears at any time, he is fully entitled to take the car back.

Seems pretty reasonable way of formally recording where the car is should the owner wish to pick it up after you've ensured is isn't scrapped.

[Mr Pastry]

Just now, loserone said:

Seems pretty reasonable way of formally recording where the car is should the owner wish to pick it up after you've ensured is isn't scrapped.

It does make sense if you think about it.

[IronStar]

6 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

In the UK at least, the registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner.

If you apply for a V5 for any car, the DVLA will contact the registered keeper and ask them if they still have it.  If there is no reply within (I think) one month and the car isn't marked as stolen or scrapped,  then in most cases the DVLA will issue you with a new V5 in your name.    This makes you the registered keeper, but not the owner.  If the legal owner reappears at any time, he is fully entitled to take the car back.

So it's best not to get involved, really.

This is what I was aiming for with the initial post. It’s essentially telling the owner that something is wrong, and if he doesn’t come back that you have his car. Makes sense as the idea is not to have council scraping it.

[Mr Pastry]

1 minute ago, IronStar said:

This is what I was aiming for with the initial post. It’s essentially telling the owner that something is wrong, and if he doesn’t come back that you have his car. Makes sense as the idea is not to have council scraping it.

Yep, but the point is it never actually becomes  your car by this process.

Cases have occurred where someone has applied for a V5 for an abandoned vehicle and got it, spent a lot of time and money restoring the car, then the owner turns up and takes it away.

Or the owner comes looking for the car, finds it is not where he left it, and reports it stolen.   Which puts the person with the new V5 in the firing line. 

Don't know where you are based, but how would it work in your country?

[IronStar]

26 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Yep, but the point is it never actually becomes  your car by this process.

Cases have occurred where someone has applied for a V5 for an abandoned vehicle and got it, spent a lot of time and money restoring the car, then the owner turns up and takes it away.

Or the owner comes looking for the car, finds it is not where he left it, and reports it stolen.   Which puts the person with the new V5 in the firing line. 

Don't know where you are based, but how would it work in your country?

It wouldn’t, my country is out of it’s mind with bureaucracy. Buying a car involves a contract and a notary, paying tax every time a car is bought (not just on the first sale!), then taking the notarized contract, old registration certificate, proof of paying sales tax, paying another tax for new registration certificate and possibly new plates as well. As this process is a PITA for everyone involved, many cars that are worth €notmuch end up with no title as owners can’t be arsed, especially if the registration certificate has been lost or damaged, as that requires going to a police station, reporting it lost or stolen, then applying for another one and waiting for a week or two. Every step costs money and time and sellers can’t be bothered if there’s peanuts money involved. Special limbo is reserved for cars whose owners have died, but haven’t been listed as part of the estate. You have to re-open the inheritance process, and unless it’s something very desirable, it’s as good as title permanently gone. 
 

I own or have owned cars that were parted as a result of every single case above, and my Bravo is stuck in an inheritance case that needs to finish before I can get the title off the guy I bought it off. Thankfully it’s listed as a part of the estate so it’s just the matter of waiting for stupidity long time before it gets cleared. 
 

EDIT: Sorry, forgot, gets even worse. Because people don’t/ didn’t want to pay taxes when car gets sold, granting power of attorney over the car was/is common. This unlocks another level of hell, as this usually didn’t grant the power over changing the owner of the car itself. If you want that car and the original owner changes address, phone number or anything really so you can’t get in contact with them - you’re fucked. Owner on the paperwork can’t be bothered to deal with notary? You’re fucked. Owner on the paperwork died? Yup, guessed it - fucked. Thankfully this is getting less common as the owner is on the hook for traffic violations, so people don’t want it on them once it’s gone, but I had to deal with multipeople chains to get cars registered to my name. I know many cases where people weren’t as lucky.

[andy18s]

28 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Yep, but the point is it never actually becomes  your car by this process.

Cases have occurred where someone has applied for a V5 for an abandoned vehicle and got it, spent a lot of time and money restoring the car, then the owner turns up and takes it away.

Or the owner comes looking for the car, finds it is not where he left it, and reports it stolen.   Which puts the person with the new V5 in the firing line. 

Don't know where you are based, but how would it work in your country?

There's a shiter on here who has experienced this, @sheffcortinacentre springs to mind but I'm probably wrong. 

[loserone]

3 minutes ago, andy18s said:

There's a shiter on here who has experienced this, @sheffcortinacentre springs to mind but I'm probably wrong. 

I think you may be thinking of @scaryoldcortina who had a great* time.

[Mr Pastry]

10 minutes ago, andy18s said:

There's a shiter on here who has experienced this, @sheffcortinacentre springs to mind but I'm probably wrong. 

I have a bit of similar experience myself which is too tedious to go into here but suffice to say, it would have to be a lot rarer than a Porsche 928 before I would chance getting involved.  If it was the actual Blue Mystery Car I'd think about it.

I suspect the most likely scenario with the 928 is that the owner has run out of money and lost interest, and probably moved away and left it behind.  He'll deffo get very interested again if he sees it running around though.

 

 

 

[chancer]

Surely the answer to all of this is to buy a full car cover, the kind that covers the entire vehicle. If i remember correctly, they arent allowed to go peeling back the cover to see whats under it. Car is hidden in plain sight, not a thing they can do. Although i am in Scotland where our laws can differ

[loserone]

Love that idea and happy to put in towards it 

[IronStar]

2 hours ago, IronStar said:

It wouldn’t, my country is out of it’s mind with bureaucracy. Buying a car involves a contract and a notary, paying tax every time a car is bought (not just on the first sale!), then taking the notarized contract, old registration certificate, proof of paying sales tax, paying another tax for new registration certificate and possibly new plates as well. As this process is a PITA for everyone involved, many cars that are worth €notmuch end up with no title as owners can’t be arsed, especially if the registration certificate has been lost or damaged, as that requires going to a police station, reporting it lost or stolen, then applying for another one and waiting for a week or two. Every step costs money and time and sellers can’t be bothered if there’s peanuts money involved. Special limbo is reserved for cars whose owners have died, but haven’t been listed as part of the estate. You have to re-open the inheritance process, and unless it’s something very desirable, it’s as good as title permanently gone. 
 

I own or have owned cars that were parted as a result of every single case above, and my Bravo is stuck in an inheritance case that needs to finish before I can get the title off the guy I bought it off. Thankfully it’s listed as a part of the estate so it’s just the matter of waiting for stupidity long time before it gets cleared. 
 

EDIT: Sorry, forgot, gets even worse. Because people don’t/ didn’t want to pay taxes when car gets sold, granting power of attorney over the car was/is common. This unlocks another level of hell, as this usually didn’t grant the power over changing the owner of the car itself. If you want that car and the original owner changes address, phone number or anything really so you can’t get in contact with them - you’re fucked. Owner on the paperwork can’t be bothered to deal with notary? You’re fucked. Owner on the paperwork died? Yup, guessed it - fucked. Thankfully this is getting less common as the owner is on the hook for traffic violations, so people don’t want it on them once it’s gone, but I had to deal with multipeople chains to get cars registered to my name. I know many cases where people weren’t as lucky.

Another fun* and interesting* tidbit I’ve missed. You can get a registration certificate only for road-legal, taxed, insured and MOT-equivalented, and this certificate is proof of ownership. This brings another challenge - a car is bought off a person A as a non-runner, then got sold to a person B which didn’t get it running either, and then person C bought it off a person B. If person C wants it registered, it needs an entire chain of custody. Registration certificate with person A name on it, notarized contract between A and B, proof of taxes paid for A to B exchange, notarized contract between B and C, proof of tax being paid for this transaction, and all the other documents listed in the previous post. If it goes to person D without being registered, the paperwork adds up. If anyone at any point misplaces the registration certificate, person A needs to get a copy before it can be registered again as police who are in charge of the registration certificates has no idea vehicle has changed hands. There might be a workaround for the last one, but I haven’t tried it personally and knowing local practices mileage may vary. 
Many cars lost title in this kind of BS as well. 

[AnthonyG]

9 hours ago, sierraman said:

It could well be literally scrap, the engine could have pissed it’s chips in which case it’s effectively game over on a car like that. I’m assuming if it’s not claimed the council weigh it in or whatever? 

It depends on who has the contract to remove them, abandoned cars in Cheltenham go (or did a few years ago) to a breakers yard where they were available for parts like anything else. Some will go to EMR or the like where it is baled and shredded. A CoD will be a given though, wherever it goes.

High value vehicles (like a 5 year old Range Rover or something) must end up in a salvage auction, this certainly happens with the higher end of stuff seized by the DVLA  for no tax and never claimed. 

[AnthonyG]

@IronStar, is this in Spain or Italy by any chance?

I remember reading one, or both, had a really limited private secondhand market as it was really involved (and expensive) to change ownership unless through a recognised dealer. Most people on an average income bought a basic new car, kept it for as long as it lasted, and then replaced it when it finally died with another basic new car. 

Scrappage schemes actually worked well in these countries, as people would replace their worn-out Panda or Ibiza or whatever with a brand new version, then wait for the next scrappage scheme to come round 15 years later, and so on. 

[HillmanImp]

1 hour ago, chancer said:

Surely the answer to all of this is to buy a full car cover, the kind that covers the entire vehicle. If i remember correctly, they arent allowed to go peeling back the cover to see whats under it. Car is hidden in plain sight, not a thing they can do. Although i am in Scotland where our laws can differ

Yeah, thats got to be bollocks otherwise everyone would be doing it. 

Not saying its not true but it seems unlikely to me. 

[IronStar]

7 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

@IronStar, is this in Spain or Italy by any chance?

I remember reading one, or both, had a really limited private secondhand market as it was really involved (and expensive) to change ownership unless through a recognised dealer. Most people on an average income bought a basic new car, kept it for as long as it lasted, and then replaced it when it finally died with another basic new car. 

Scrappage schemes actually worked well in these countries, as people would replace their worn-out Panda or Ibiza or whatever with a brand new version, then wait for the next scrappage scheme to come round 15 years later, and so on. 

It’s Serbia. I doubt Italians are waiting for a scrappage scheme either, as they’re exporting a ton of cars over here.

It’s not that expensive, it’s just a faff, and you need a day to do it. To be fair, they have simplified it, it was even more involved and needed multiple days and a physical trip to multiple locations a couple of years back, but it’s still a faff nevertheless. You pay 2.5% of car’s value in tax for every ownership change, but tax authority is literally pulling the numbers out of their asses. It’s not uncommon to have your car overvalued by taxman by 500-1000% on a cheap as chips end of the market. I paid 300€ for my Alfa 155 and it was valued at around 2500€ by the authorities. Now, 2.5% of 2500 is not all that much, so you roll your eyes and pay for it if you’re sensible, but all the paperwork totaled out to a bit under 100€, and that’s without new registration certificate and plates which are 30ish on top. 

[chancer]

9 minutes ago, HillmanImp said:

Yeah, thats got to be bollocks otherwise everyone would be doing it. 

Not saying its not true but it seems unlikely to me. 

Several hundred communal car parks up here (mostly in less desirable areas) say its probably a thing. Back years ago when i was due to have a car repossessed cos i was skint, i kept the car under a cover when not in use. Agents couldnt find it, even though it was right outside the house, and i got to keep it as it cost the finance company every time they came out. Like I said, Scotland and England have wildly varying laws surrounding this

[HillmanImp]

1 minute ago, chancer said:

Several hundred communal car parks up here (mostly in less desirable areas) say its probably a thing. Back years ago when i was due to have a car repossessed cos i was skint, i kept the car under a cover when not in use. Agents couldnt find it, even though it was right outside the house, and i got to keep it as it cost the finance company every time they came out. Like I said, Scotland and England have wildly varying laws surrounding this

Maybe everyone is doing it then and I'm just missing a trick. 😂 

[Dan302]

11 hours ago, MrBig said:

I'm pretty sure the V5 no longer shows previous owner information due to GDPR.

To counter a point further up, the legal definition of theft appears to be "the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it"

IANAL but if you take reasonable steps to show that you are keeping it safe for the owner and can demonstrate you are taking action to contact them, I don't see how you could be guilty of theft. 

Taking without the owners consent. TWOC would be the more likely offence.

[HillmanImp]

5 hours ago, Dan302 said:

Taking without the owners consent. TWOC would be the more likely offence.

I asked a forum member who is a law talking person.

You'd need the owners consent. Or it's a twoc. It's not theft unless it's with a dishonest intention to appropriate the property, which it isn't. But it's still twoc unless consent is obtained.

Or it could be moved in an emergency. 

Or to prevent damage to property. But again it would have to be your property unless you had consent. 

Could consent be implied? THATS THE ARGUMENT. WOULD IT BE IMPLICIT CONSENT IF YOU COULD PROVE IT? I guess that depends on the condition of the car. If it's been well looked after, maybe you could say that it's implicit to argue that the owner would consent to it being moved to a safe place.

Or you could own or require access to land and need to move it. That would grant you rights to deal with property obstructing your peaceable enjoyment of the land.

So it could be possible to take it and suggest that it would be reasonable to expect the owner to consent to it being taken as you were saving it from being fragged but you're still gonna get lifted for the TWOC whilst you try and convince them of that, and theres no guarantee that you will. 

[RichardK]

10 hours ago, loserone said:

Love that idea and happy to put in towards it 

I have a full car cover I will donate

[Back_For_More]

To be an arse..... Apologies n all that. 

As V5 isn't proof of ownership then would it really matter which Tom, Dick or Harry turned up claiming it as theirs? Just because they had/have an old V5 that isn't proof of ownership. 

Bought cash mate - all above board etc.... 

Not saying do this - but it would be 1 word against the other surely? 

I know of a dodgy car dealer that will  buy cars that are on finance from struggling owners and just hides them for (I think) 2yrs...... Then V5 is apllied for and ownership obtained. Apparently the finance firms give up chasing after a certain period. He's bent as a 9bob note though - proper Arthur Daley.... 

[AnthonyG]

As a general argument possibly.

But in the case of this Porsche, it was purchased fairly recently from a reputable classic car auctioneer. Assuming the purchaser then is still the registered keeper, they would have absolutely no difficulty at all proving they were the legal owners, and even if they had lost all the paperwork, the auction house could confirm it all from their end. 

[DodgeRover]

2 hours ago, Back_For_More said:

To be an arse..... Apologies n all that. 

As V5 isn't proof of ownership then would it really matter which Tom, Dick or Harry turned up claiming it as theirs? Just because they had/have an old V5 that isn't proof of ownership. 

Bought cash mate - all above board etc.... 

Not saying do this - but it would be 1 word against the other surely? 

I know of a dodgy car dealer that will  buy cars that are on finance from struggling owners and just hides them for (I think) 2yrs...... Then V5 is apllied for and ownership obtained. Apparently the finance firms give up chasing after a certain period. He's bent as a 9bob note though - proper Arthur Daley.... 

Finance firms usually won't chase a private purchaser for outstanding finance, they will go after a dealer though.

[myglaren]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

As a general argument possibly.

But in the case of this Porsche, it was purchased fairly recently from a reputable classic car auctioneer. Assuming the purchaser then is still the registered keeper, they would have absolutely no difficulty at all proving they were the legal owners, and even if they had lost all the paperwork, the auction house could confirm it all from their end. 

They probably have his details on file and that may be a method of contacting him.