10 (US Market) Diesel Cars That Time Forgot

[Erebus]

  On 07/12/2023 at 20:19, 2flags said:

That does sound about right. 

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I drove the van version many years ago.  It was indeed ridiculously slow

[Dyslexic Viking]

  On 07/12/2023 at 15:06, danthecapriman said:

Quite possibly. It was the late 80’s diesel’s seemed to take off more in cars. I don’t know why though? Did something change with diesel engine technology around that time to make them more refined and better suited to cars?? 
Before that it was mainly diesel engines for trucks and vans - generally they were bigger and quite agricultural! Diesel cars were unusual and the engine often came from something like a commercial vehicle or a boat or something!

Or maybe it was tax reasons diesel engines in cars took off more?

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Lack of engine power I would think was the biggest problem with early diesel engines in cars, my Mercedes is nice to drive but on steep hills and on acceleration, the lack of power is noticeable. But I think the lack of power is worth it for the advantages the diesel engine gives.

An interesting fact about Mercedes, W110 like mine they sold more diesel versions than petrol and I think the same was the case with the replacement W115. 

 

[danthecapriman]

  On 07/12/2023 at 20:02, 2flags said:

I remember such paragons of 'excellence' of the Ford York diesel and the BMC 1.5, as well as the Landrover 2.25. Woeful just doesn't seem to do them justice. If they could achieve 45mph then you were going downhill with a following wind. The Peugeot engine was a game changer. They have come on so much. I remember the advert for a Nissan people carrier, can't remember the name but I think it had a 2.3 diesel, might have been the Ford lump? 0-60? 23 seconds!!!  

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The York diesel in the Transit wasn’t actually all that bad an engine… once you got it to actually start! It was dreadful in the cold trying to get them to go, but once it was running and warm it was fine. In context with that era of course! 
The later 2.5 Di ‘banana’ engine was the best. Simple and reliable and with the turbo it was plenty quick enough in a van too. I used to love them! 

[lesapandre]

I think turbocharging diesels was the big step change.

Late 90's UK government was promoting sale of diesel cars and derv was significantly cheaper than petrol 

[garethj]

  On 07/12/2023 at 15:06, danthecapriman said:

Quite possibly. It was the late 80’s diesel’s seemed to take off more in cars. I don’t know why though? Did something change with diesel engine technology around that time to make them more refined and better suited to cars?? 
Before that it was mainly diesel engines for trucks and vans - generally they were bigger and quite agricultural! Diesel cars were unusual and the engine often came from something like a commercial vehicle or a boat or something!

Or maybe it was tax reasons diesel engines in cars took off more?

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The main change at that time was from indirect injection (IDI) to direct injection (DI) which gave better emissions, performance and efficiency, especially when coupled with a turbocharger.  DI diesel with a turbo was a game changer.

As an explanation, IDI squirted the fuel into a separate swirl chamber, but DI put it directly into the combustion chamber more like a petrol engine.

The early Peugeot engines were actually IDI but most manufacturers didn’t get a decent diesel engine until they went DI.

Most of this is taken from remembering my engine thermodynamics lectures from uni in the late 80s.  I passed, and it was definitely a discussion topic at the time from the lecturer who knew his stuff, but I wouldn’t claim it’s 100% accurate.

[Dyslexic Viking]

A strange thing is that tractors seem to get direct injection faster than cars. Here are 4 different tractors from the 1970s and all are direct injection and some of them were developed in the 1960s in the eastern bloc. So why cars lagged behind I don't know.

[jonathan_dyane]

  On 07/12/2023 at 20:57, Dyslexic Viking said:

A strange thing is that tractors seem to get direct injection faster than cars. Here are 4 different tractors from the 1970s and all are direct injection and some of them were developed in the 1960s in the eastern bloc. So why cars lagged behind I don't know.

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It wasn't really possible to get a 'high speed' diesel DI engine with acceptable performance and refinement until the advent of computer controlled injection systems hence why up until that point Harry Ricardo's Comet IDI systems (largely - Mercedes didn't use them but had fairly crap power and economy but good refinement) reigned supreme; the XUD was arguably the finest passenger car IDI engine with what was at the time an excellent power/economy/refinement compromise 

[Asimo]

  On 07/12/2023 at 20:39, danthecapriman said:

The later 2.5 Di ‘banana’ engine was the best.

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But when one of those Transits was driven past you it was cripplingly, shatteringly noisey, even worse than the Maestro’s Prima engine.

[Noel Tidybeard]

peak diesel in the late '70s was Indenor powered CX safari/familiale

[danthecapriman]

  On 07/12/2023 at 23:18, Asimo said:

But when one of those Transits was driven past you it was cripplingly, shatteringly noisey, even worse than the Maestro’s Prima engine.

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It was in the cab too!😆

[garethj]

How things used to be.  Look at those power and mpg figures 😳

[sierraman]

Wasn’t the VM unit the one with four separate cylinder heads? 

[lesapandre]

  On 07/12/2023 at 23:31, garethj said:

How things used to be.  Look at those power and mpg figures 😳

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A window on the past.

Out of those six - the one most likely to still be smoking about would be the 300D - but not great performance at the price.

Huge price difference between the two Rovers - begs the usual BMC question - were they making a decent profit at that money? The Rovers quality issues had spoilt sales by that point.

I remember the Audi 80's selling quite a lot of the various types - now mostly all gone in the UK.

The best is the CX - but fewer found UK buyers. Lots of these survive in France tho.

[Asimo]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126220266021

Try one for yourself, seems to have been a good investment and to have lasted well.  Would be a good friend for Cedric!

 

[jonathan_dyane]

  On 07/12/2023 at 23:19, Noel Tidybeard said:

peak diesel in the late '70s was Indenor powered CX safari/familiale

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The CX never had the Indenor engine, it's diesel was a Citroen design which was a pretty successful dieselisation of the existing petrol engine 

Even today the performance and economy of the latest turbo intercooled iteration of the CX diesel (Turbo 2) is fairly impressive, just don't mention porous blocks...

[D.E]

 

[lesapandre]

  On 08/12/2023 at 08:34, Asimo said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126220266021

Try one for yourself, seems to have been a good investment and to have lasted well.  Would be a good friend for Cedric!

 

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Very rare survivor. I think the idea was for Austin-Rover to export these into the European market - hence the engine and displacement. I'm not sure it was a success.

Not my cup of tea - but this is...for sale here in France.

[sierraman]

I think the 2400SD was designed with the Italian and French markets in mind. Considering cost of restoring one, that one on eBay isn’t bad value. 

[AnthonyG]

I’m pretty genned up on malaise era Yank stuff, still surprised to see a diesel Ford Tempo with a Mazda lump though. 

I can imagine a diesel Chevy Caprice station wagon loaded to the gills with 105hp to drag it all around was a very slow way to go on vacation. 

[grogee]

  On 08/12/2023 at 22:41, AnthonyG said:

I’m pretty genned up on malaise era Yank stuff, still surprised to see a diesel Ford Tempo with a Mazda lump though. 

I can imagine a diesel Chevy Caprice station wagon loaded to the gills with 105hp to drag it all around was a very slow way to go on vacation. 

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Did it matter though? 65mph speed limits, straighter and longer roads. 

At that time petrol/gas was so cheap in the USA you'd have to wonder who wanted to deviate from a V8. 

Growing up in the South-West and working in a rural garage, we'd see plenty of farmer types rattling around in various diesels. I remember a 2.3d Sierra and quite a few Peugeots, all rated by the proprietor as being fairly trouble-free. I guess the farmers had access to red diesel too but I seem to remember the police were fairly hot on checking tanks back then. 

I also remember one of those Mk1 Golfs in yellow with a (1.6?) diesel; the tailgate was permanently blackened with clag.