The Xantia of Not Many Shitters

[Rust Collector]

2 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Emissions I'd say have a really good dig around the engine bay to look for any vacuum leaks, ensure there's fresh fuel in the tank and cross your fingers.  These use a MAP setup to measure engine load rather than air mass if I remember rightly, so it can only take a tiny leak to throw the mixture out of whack.

It had about an eighth of a tank of old fuel in when I picked it up, this morning I filled it with super unleaded petrol and chucked a bottle of cataclean in as per the bosses instructions 😅 So on the fuel front it should be about as good as it's getting.

I'll have a root around the engine bay - didn't realise it would be MAP on these, I thought most Euro stuff was on MAF sensors back then. This might be a daft question but do you know if this age of petrol Xantia would have an OBD port for diagnostics?

[SiC]

Got a copy of the emissions sheet?

Would be good to see how close (or not) and on what. 

[Zelandeth]

4 minutes ago, Rust Collector said:

It had about an eighth of a tank of old fuel in when I picked it up, this morning I filled it with super unleaded petrol and chucked a bottle of cataclean in as per the bosses instructions 😅 So on the fuel front it should be about as good as it's getting.

I'll have a root around the engine bay - didn't realise it would be MAP on these, I thought most Euro stuff was on MAF sensors back then. This might be a daft question but do you know if this age of petrol Xantia would have an OBD port for diagnostics?

It's quite an old engine design, dating back at least to the XM if not further.

They will have an OBD port, but you really need Lexia/Diagbox to get much beyond very basic codes out of them as they aren't fully OBD compliant.  I think the connector is proprietary as well though I could well be speaking nonsense there as it's been many years - thankfully I never had any reason to plug either of my two in.

[Rust Collector]

14 minutes ago, SiC said:

Got a copy of the emissions sheet?

Would be good to see how close (or not) and on what. 

Emissions:

And brakes whilst we’re here:

13 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

It's quite an old engine design, dating back at least to the XM if not further.

They will have an OBD port, but you really need Lexia/Diagbox to get much beyond very basic codes out of them as they aren't fully OBD compliant.  I think the connector is proprietary as well though I could well be speaking nonsense there as it's been many years - thankfully I never had any reason to plug either of my two in.

I’ll have a poke around when I remove the seat. I just thought I might be able to have a look at fuel trims for anything that might suggest a leak.

[Rust Collector]

I’ve just noticed that the emissions sheet says that it passed?! That’s not what the front sheet says or what the tester said when I collected it…

[SiC]

Fail on CO on fast idle at the top. So running rich? 

Looks like they did the wrong axles for the handbrake if Xantia is front. Tbf they're getting rare now and if a young tester may have no idea it was front handbrake. 

[Rust Collector]

4 minutes ago, SiC said:

Fail on CO on fast idle at the top. 

Looks like they did the wrong axles for the handbrake if Xantia is front. Tbf they're getting rare now and if a young tester may have no idea it was front handbrake. 

But then second fast idle test it came down to 0.22 and the bottom line of the sheet says 'Overall Result : Exhaust Emission Test: Pass' ?

It was a chap in his 40's/50's, he wasn't the regular tester though. The normal chap wasn't flustered with the BX Leader recently and I was hoping it would be him looking over the car today.

[SiC]

4 minutes ago, Rust Collector said:

But then second fast idle test it came down to 0.22 and the bottom line of the sheet says 'Overall Result : Exhaust Emission Test: Pass' ?

Oh yes just saw that. Can't remember, tester on here would know. I'd thought yes it should have passed given it passed on second test? At least it is capable of passing once!

@twosmoke300 / @meggersdog

[Zelandeth]

Yep...that test is a pass.  It just took two attempts.  Natural idle is only *just* a pass, but it's a pass nonetheless.

Imagine it will be a hell of a lot cleaner after a good run though.

[Dave_Q]

Surely they couldn't have recorded any park brake efficiency if they tested the wrong axle?

The report looks like their tester only has the option for rear axle parking brake so is it just reported as the wrong axle?

[Rust Collector]

1 minute ago, Dave_Q said:

The report looks like their tester only has the option for rear axle parking brake so is it just reported as the wrong axle?

I was wondering that. I don't know what a KGF is equivalent to but 50 odd of them sounds like something's going on.

[Rust Collector]

4 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Yep...that test is a pass.  It just took two attempts.  Natural idle is only *just* a pass, but it's a pass nonetheless.

Imagine it will be a hell of a lot cleaner after a good run though.

I'll stop by and ask about it on the way home - would be ideal if they can correct that now.

[beko1987]

I had a fail on the handbrake for the same reason one year... Quick retest later and yes it did have a perfectly working handbrake! 

Good luck! Looking good so far

[Dave_Q]

17 minutes ago, Rust Collector said:

I was wondering that. I don't know what a KGF is equivalent to but 50 odd of them sounds like something's going on.

kgf I think just means kilograms of force, although a kilogram is a mass not a force 1kg would exert a force of (m * g) 9.81N on yer foot, so this is another way of saying how much braking force there is. 

I assume its used along with the weight of the car to work out an efficiency? So if it weighs 1 ton and has 500kgf braking force per axle it's 100% efficient? Summat like that anyway.

[wesacosa]

assuming its same as an xm....  if they did do the correct axle the two brake cables usually meet the one to the handbrake lever in a little bracket under drivers footwell.  if they have been loosened or messed with at the calliper end they can pop out of the bracket.  Or the lever on calliper could be full or crap.  

 

[purplebargeken]

Sounds like they need to revisit this, at least for the recording of the emissions and handbrake or am I just confused.

RC, if you want to pass on the work then no worries mate, you have gone over and above getting it running, briefly checked over and lobbed in for an MOT mate.

[purplebargeken]

Or are you on a holy mission now lol.

[Rust Collector]

It's your car Ken so if you wanted to uplift it or move it on then that's your shout and I wouldn't be offended - I'm happy to get to work and try to get it through the re-test though as long as you're happy for me to do so. I feel like getting an MOT on it at this end would make things cheaper and/or easier in terms of getting the car to you and from a purely selfish point of view I'd get some satisfaction out of getting it over the line 😅

[purplebargeken]

I just wanted to make sure you are OK with doing the bits required Josh.  Don't like imposing/taking the mickey. If you are happy doing it then so am I. Thank you.

[artdjones]

The first thing to do is a clarifying phone call.

[Rust Collector]

3 minutes ago, artdjones said:

The first thing to do is a clarifying phone call.

They're just round the corner from my work, so I'm stopping in on the way back home - I think it'll be easier to have a chat with the paperwork in my hand.

But yes, my gut feel now is that the chap has had a bit of a moment when recording the fail as there's a few bits that don't seem to tally up. Can't see them doing much about how the handbrake was tested (the brakes need looking at anyway) and I think that will have to be chalked up to mistakes happen, but I'd hope that he can sort out the situation with the emissions as the report he's printed doesn't appear to support the refusal sheet.

Either way, the brakes will need attending to and the seat removing, inspecting and repairing.

[artdjones]

4 minutes ago, Rust Collector said:

They're just round the corner from my work, so I'm stopping in on the way back home - I think it'll be easier to have a chat with the paperwork in my hand.

But yes, my gut feel now is that the chap has had a bit of a moment when recording the fail as there's a few bits that don't seem to tally up. Can't see them doing much about how the handbrake was tested (the brakes need looking at anyway) and I think that will have to be chalked up to mistakes happen, but I'd hope that he can sort out the situation with the emissions as the report he's printed doesn't appear to support the refusal sheet.

Either way, the brakes will need attending to and the seat removing, inspecting and repairing.

If the handbrake is still poor on the front I'd have a look at the cables first. They go through some fairly sharp bends, and the plastic sheath of them splits, letting water into the cable and causing seizing. Luckily, the bit that's most prone to doing that is very visible with the wheels off, as it's the first few inches back from where it hooks onto the caliper, so there is some possibilities to unseize them.

[artdjones]

As the service brake on the front isn't very strong the pads may be seized in a bit or the caliper sliders  or the caliper itself may be sticky. 

I have two rebuilt Xantia calipers in a carrier bag somewhere in my garage, but as I'm in a different country that's not much help.

[Rust Collector]

I’ve had a quick chat to the tester, he’s certain he has to record the as a fail if it doesn’t pass the first fast idle test. Apologies to any MOT testers / mechanics here who are currently reading this thread and screaming at me for being the guy who goes back to ask them if they’ve done something right 😅

[SiC]

20 minutes ago, Rust Collector said:

he’s certain he has to record the as a fail if it doesn’t pass the first fast idle test

I'd be interested to see what a resident tester on here says. 

Reading this on the emissions test:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/676700/in-service-exhaust-emission-standards-for-road-vehicles-19th-edition.pdf

"As in the basic test procedure, emissions are assessed during two separate tests. The “fast-idle” test in this case involves running the engine at the speed specified in the Annex to this publication (typically 2500 - 3000 rpm), and the emissions of CO, HC and Lambda values are checked. A check of CO emissions at ‘normal idle’ speed is also carried out. The analyser will require the tester to complete each stage of the test before proceeding to the next. In addition, where a failure is recorded during the fast idle test, the analyser will automatically schedule a repeat test.  "

That last sentence to me reads as if it gets another go? Paperwork saying Pass suggests the same.

Of course doesn't matter until the other issues are sorted and in a retest it might be fine. 

[Zelandeth]

21 minutes ago, SiC said:

I'd be interested to see what a resident tester on here says. 

Reading this on the emissions test:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/676700/in-service-exhaust-emission-standards-for-road-vehicles-19th-edition.pdf

"As in the basic test procedure, emissions are assessed during two separate tests. The “fast-idle” test in this case involves running the engine at the speed specified in the Annex to this publication (typically 2500 - 3000 rpm), and the emissions of CO, HC and Lambda values are checked. A check of CO emissions at ‘normal idle’ speed is also carried out. The analyser will require the tester to complete each stage of the test before proceeding to the next. In addition, where a failure is recorded during the fast idle test, the analyser will automatically schedule a repeat test.  "

That last sentence to me reads as if it gets another go? Paperwork saying Pass suggests the same.

Of course doesn't matter until the other issues are sorted and in a retest it might be fine. 

Yep, second fast idle test won't be carried out if it passes first try.

Pretty sure the whole reason that exists is so you can have another go once the cat is properly up to light off temperature if it wasn't when entering the workshop.

This was always needed on the Ladas as the cat is about a third of the way along the system and took about a week to get up to temperature.

 

Edit:

Here we go - this was an MOT pass.

Failed on lambda on the first go, went through perfectly 60 seconds later once things had stabilised.

I mean it's pretty simple... otherwise why would the sheet say "Exhaust emission test: PASS" at the bottom?

[RoverFolkUs]

Ok... 

"Exhaust carbon monoxide content at idle exceeds default limits (8.2.1.2 (b))"

Err, no indication of that in the above print out? 

"Exhaust carbon monoxide content after 2nd fast idle exceeds manufacturer's specified limits (8.2.1.2 (a))"

Nope, the print out doesn't tally up with that either? 

The clue is in the wording! After 2nd fast idle test.. they're supposed to be given a 2nd chance to give benefit of the doubt for a rogue reading on the first try. A lot of older cars will fail the emmisions test first time round, hence the 2nd fast idle test. So I'm not quite following his thinking that he needs to fail it if the first test was a fail, if that's the case then what's the point of the 2nd fast idle test?

As far as I am aware, the purpose of the 2nd fast idle test is to override the result of the 1st, and if it passes the 1st then the 2nd is skipped? That's what's already been said above and as far as I know that is how it should be done. Put it this way, it's how my tester has always done it. 

50kgf found on the rear is probably just a bind, seeing the parking brake test being done on the rear axle did make me chuckle 😆

Slightly strange usage of the "single line braking system" dangerous RfR, but I suppose being a hydro Citroen they don't have true dual circuit brakes iirc. It's not single line though, but I think the tester could be forgiven in that regard

[Rust Collector]

23 minutes ago, RoverFolkUs said:

50kgf found on the rear is probably just a bind, seeing the parking brake test being done on the rear axle did make me chuckle 😆

For my own curiosity I had to put it in my own handbrake test area* up at the farm

*disclaimer: this is not a scientific test.

[purplebargeken]

So... do we prod the tester with pitchforks then burn him?

[Rust Collector]

I drove it home the long way, to be honest now that the niggles like a lack of lights and indicators, the sagging headline and electrical quirks have been sorted it’s actually quite an enjoyable car to drive. Once the brakes are sorted and the seat back rest tightened up I think it’ll be a really pleasant thing to drive around in.