Ambitious towbars

[Barry Cade]

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

from here:

https://www.barlowtrailers.co.uk/the-basics-of-towing-a-trailer-or-van

This company has it right.  Most other trailer websites make the statement about GVW and GTW but are very wooly on the matter

@Barry Cade The argument is thus:

Vehicle has a 2310KG GVW and a 4410GTW rating.  my argument is that as long as both of these are kept to, then there is no issue.  If the car was laden to 2000kg, you could tow a 2400kg trailer if you wanted to.

@Faker's argument is that by subtracting 2310 from 4410, you get a trailer weight of 2100kg and you must not exceed that under any circumstances.

I believe he's wrong, and that the 2100kg limit is ONLY when the vehicle is laden to it's GVW of 2310kg.

Even the .gov website is not clear.  I believe that if the law stated that the maxiumum trailer was indeed GTW-GVW, this would be made very clear, and it is not.  All they do is state that GVW and GTW must both be adhered to.  In my example above, the vehicle would be 2000kg, and hence under the GVW.  The combination weight would be 4400kg, and you would be (just) inside the GTW, and hence legal.

With all the other bollocks online about the 85% rule (which some websites claim is law.. it isn't) and the 100% rule (trailer should not exceed the weight of the car, also not law) it is very hard to find the exact legal situation.

It's an interesting debate, and not the first time this has come up.  I'm particularly invested, as I irregularly do tow a trailer of about 2500kg on my W210, but ensure that both the GTW and GVW are not exceeded.  I believe this is legal.

Away from legal stuff. You are exceeding the rated capacity of the towbar if you have 2500kg on a W210. 

My take on this is..  the car is rated for a towing capacity, which you cannot exceed. It is formulated by the manufacturer through testing mounting points, braking capability etc. Towbar manufacturers work off the vehicles manufacturers spec. The axle weights on the car cannot be exceeded either, so you can't load the car up to above its max weight because the trailer is lighter. You can't exceed the trailer weight because the car isn't loaded up. 

Dealt with this with DVSA on the breakdown trucks , they are really hot on 3.5 ton beavertails towing trailers now. There was a big push about it because some were properly flouting the law. And still do.

This is a W210 bar from brink. Max is 2200kg. Towtrust bar is 2000kg. Max. 

 

 

This is a page from the new E Class handbook. Simple and straightforward.

 

[chaseracer]

The Dyane has had a towbar for as long as I can remember.  The Donald is a more recent addition.

I have never yet used it to tow anything.  Car + me = approx. 750kg, so wouldn't be able to tow much anyway!

[High Jetter]

35 minutes ago, Faker said:

I do enjoy a good debate!!

IIRC you posted you work in compliance? Interested to know more, but appreciate you may not wish to share on a forum such as this. 'Tales from a VOSA operative' would be an interesting thread, have seen some tuucks in shocking states on TV documentaries. I wonder if GTW is sometimes taken to refer to trailer weight, rather than train - though gov.uk refers to train.

[Faker]

Ok. So I will try and explain the difference between Gross Train Weight, and Gross Combined Weight.

Gross train weight refers to cars, (some) jeeps, and vans etc that use a towbar.

 

Gross Combined Weight one can use a jeep with a 5th wheel.

Using a 5th wheel, the tow vehicle carries up to a 1/3rd of the total mass of the trailer directly over the rear axle of the tow vehicle, and the combined mass is actually calculated by axle weights.

So the jeep above can be driven on a car license with grandfather rights or a trailer test. It has a “tow bar” towing capacity of 3.5t, and has a 1t bed payload. However if using a 5th wheel… it can tow more than it’s 3.5t limit as a third of the trailer mass is being supported by the jeep bed… the jeep can avail of its one ton payload capability, and tow a 4t trailer. That’s a combination weight with shared load.

 

Gross train weight solely refers to ball hitch towing. The documentation and legislation is murky at best… but it is simple to understand when you delve in to it.

 

Most places do cite at the bottom of their advice that it’s their interpretation of the law…

 

Talbot if you screw the boot lid off your merc and bolt a 5th wheel to the floor, you may well be able to avail of unused tow vehicle load and pull more that permitted (joke). You’re applying GCW theory’s to a vehicle that has a GTW. Basically a W210 can’t carry, share, or support the extra KG as you have done in the past, as you can’t avail of unused tow vehicle payload. 

[Barry Cade]

8 minutes ago, Faker said:

Ok. So I will try and explain the difference between Gross Train Weight, and Gross Combined Weight.

Gross train weight refers to cars, (some) jeeps, and vans etc that use a towbar.

 

Gross Combined Weight one can use a jeep with a 5th wheel.

Using a 5th wheel, the tow vehicle carries 1/3rd of the mass of the trailer directly over the rear axle of the tow vehicle, and the combined mass is actually calculated by axle weights.

So the jeep above can be driven on a car license with grandfather rights or a trailer test. It has a “tow bar” towing capacity of 3.5t. However it using a 5th wheel… it can tow more than it’s 3.5t limit as a third of the trailer mass is being supported by the jeep bed… the jeep can avail of its one ton payload capability, and tow a 4t trailer. That’s a combination weight with shared load.

 

Gross train weight solely refers to ball hitch towing. The documentation and legislation is murky at best… but it is simple to understand when you delve in to it.

 

Most places do cite at the bottom of their advice that it’s their interpretation of the law…

 

Talbot if you screw the boot lid off your merc and bolt a 5th wheel to the floor, you may well be able to avail of unused tow vehicle load and pull more that permitted (joke).

So that explains the sentence in the Mercedes handbook where " The tongue weight is not included in the trailer load" ?

[chaseracer]

4 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

So that explains the sentence in the Mercedes handbook where " The tongue weight is not included in the trailer load" ?

If you say so! 😀

[Faker]

4 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

So that explains the sentence in the Mercedes handbook where " The tongue weight is not included in the trailer load" ?

Tongue weight is the downward force exerted on the ball hitch, 

[Barry Cade]

7 minutes ago, Faker said:

Tongue weight is the downward force exerted on the ball hitch, 

Yes, or noseweight. But if you take the noseweight off the trailer and add it to the car, then you can pull a heavier trailer than the max tow weight . I know what you mean, and what I mean and it makes sense!

[Barry Cade]

I listen to American podcasts often, and there are many questions about towing there.. it makes our systems seem almost simple 😦

Different classes of hitch, tow haul mode, electric trailer brakes, towing diff ratios. They're mental! But some of their pickups tow 12 tonnes. 

[Barry Cade]

9 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

Yes, or noseweight. But if you take the noseweight off the trailer and add it to the car, then you can pull a heavier trailer than the max tow weight . I know what you mean, and what I mean and it makes sense!

The difference between an articulated truck and trailer or a wagon and drag...

[Faker]

4 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

I listen to American podcasts often, and there are many questions about towing there.. it makes our systems seem almost simple 😦

Different classes of hitch, tow haul mode, electric trailer brakes, towing diff ratios. They're mental! But some of their pickups tow 12 tonnes. 

Cummins dodge ram can tow 12t on a 5th wheel. Not legal in uk though 

[Faker]

3.5t Iveco Daily chassis cab that has a kerb weight of 2t and can be driven on a car B+E license.

Daily has a GCW. Check out the photos and promo below them.

 

Trailer and digger = 6.7t

Iveco = 2t

Combined weight = 8.7t

Payload carried by Iveco means trailer and digger now weigh 5.7t because of the shared / combined weight.

 

[Barry Cade]

Like this..??

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/19B9xoVKkt/

[Faker]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

Like this..??

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/19B9xoVKkt/

Fark sake!!! Have I not done enough shit stirring 🤣🤣🤣

[Talbot]

4 hours ago, Barry Cade said:

Away from legal stuff. You are exceeding the rated capacity of the towbar if you have 2500kg on a W210. 

My take on this is..  the car is rated for a towing capacity, which you cannot exceed. .......  You can't exceed the trailer weight because the car isn't loaded up. 

This is a W210 bar from brink. Max is 2200kg. Towtrust bar is 2000kg.

Just to add complexity to this... the towbar on my W210 is home-made, which is legal on a pre-1998 vehicle as a type-approved towbar is not needed.  It's *chuffing* massive, and has a 3.5tonne rated ball/pin hitch on it.  It would probably be good to about 5 tonnes.

What I can't work out here is where the legislation is on there being a maximum trailer weight regardless of how heavily (or not) the car is laden.  The car rating plate has two weights on it, neither of which are a maximum trailer weight.

[Barry Cade]

8 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Just to add complexity to this... the towbar on my W210 is home-made, which is legal on a pre-1998 vehicle as a type-approved towbar is not needed.  It's *chuffing* massive, and has a 3.5tonne rated ball/pin hitch on it.  It would probably be good to about 5 tonnes.

What I can't work out here is where the legislation is on there being a maximum trailer weight regardless of how heavily (or not) the car is laden.  The car rating plate has two weights on it, neither of which are a maximum trailer weight.

You do know a w210 type approved towbar is attached with 4 M10 bolts?  All the mounting points have to be drilled in a specific place.

I see your point, but I go on the 2nd line minus the first line equals max tow weight. Simplifying the language and a proper paper from DVSA could put all this to bed easily.

 

[Talbot]

8 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

You do know a w210 type approved towbar is attached with 4 M10 bolts?  All the mounting points have to be drilled in a specific place.

I see your point, but I go on the 2nd line minus the first line equals max tow weight. Simplifying the language and a proper paper from DVSA could put all this to bed easily.

The one I made mirrors the (later) type approved towbar and mounts similarly to the box-section structure either side of the car.  Mine also has mountings to the rear crossmember.  It's probably overkill, but I'd prefer it was that way.  I should note it's also a 5-seat W210, were it a 7-seat one where the rearmost passengers feet are in the area that the towbar mounts, I would absolutely be using a towbar that is approved, rather than something lobbed together by me!

The situation with towing really does need proper guidance from the government.  There is a lot of bollocks online regarding different "rules" that are nothing more than opinion (the 85% rule being a prime example of this).

I tend to stick to the "if it looks right, it's right" rule.  Also, "if it doesn't look right, move it at night". 

[chaseracer]

27 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Just to add complexity to this... the towbar on my W210 is home-made, which is legal on a pre-1998 vehicle as a type-approved towbar is not needed.  It's *chuffing* massive, and has a 3.5tonne rated ball/pin hitch on it.  It would probably be good to about 5 tonnes.

Don't mention the A-frame! 😁

[Six-cylinder]

Not only did our Alfa 156 V6 substitute for our broken again Range Rover to move our boat, but the trailer had a stuck brake that had to be broken free.

The 1370 kg car towed the 2000kg trailer with ease but don't worry it was only on the farm road where it was stored at the time.

[BorniteIdentity]

6 hours ago, Rustybullethole said:

Does it look right?

Yes; It'll probably be alright then.

No; Proceed with trepidation.

Does it feel right? 

Yes; Let's see how fast it will go. 

No; Proceed with caution.

 

If it's on, it's gone.

[Homersimpson]

I do very little towing these days and when I do its only a small trailer on my fiesta.  Back in the dim and distant past I used to have a car trailer that I used for moving various projects around and I found that the  towing weight of a car bore very little resemblance to whether it was good to tow with.

The main thing seemed to be the distance between the rear axle of the car and the tow ball, this might have been a result of the trailers twin axles being quite close together, if it had a long overhang like the S Type jag I had then you could get it wagging quite a bit but something like a transit with a shorter distance was much better.  It would be interesting to have tried a proper trailer to see if this was just an issue with that trailer which I bought from the person who made it.

[High Jetter]

48 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

Not only did our Alfa 156 V6 substitute for our broken again Range Rover to move our boat, but the trailer had a stuck brake that had to be broken free.

More Clout! (#obscure)

[Barry Cade]

1 hour ago, BorniteIdentity said:

If it's on, it's gone.

You must have been a recovery driver at some point...😆

I remember meeting one, who insisted if he lifted a car with the Hi-Ab, but kept the weight off the suspension when he lowered it down, then he could carry more weight as the weight of the car wasn't actually on the bed. 

I didn't know what to say.

 

I have towed static caravans, with both a Shogun Pinin, and a Kia Sorento. Both pulling more than 6 tonnes on grass. Main tow tug was a Disco 3 with made it look easy.. 

[Supernaut]

I agree Kia Sorentos are nice tow vehicles.

I've been moving a lot of soil / compost recently with a 2012 one.

Twin axle Ifor Williams on the back with a good tonne of compost in there. While it's a bit slower than it is unladen it still drives silky smoothly.

[Barry Cade]

28 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

I agree Kia Sorentos are nice tow vehicles.

I've been moving a lot of soil / compost recently with a 2012 one.

Twin axle Ifor Williams on the back with a good tonne of compost in there. While it's a bit slower than it is unladen it still drives silky smoothly.

I was gutted when I found out mine had the rear chassis rust at the back axle. Just missed the recall too.😧

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

A Transit Smiley 230 I owned had a gross weight of 3995 ton, 5500 ton train weight and was 2300 ton unladen with the winch, spare wheel, basic recovery equipment and half a tank of fuel.

The extra half ton carrying capacity was usefull whenever I had  a Land Rover, Volvo 940 or something similar on it, although I never did get a pull from the Ministry to check the weight.

It didn't have a towbar, just a towball and bracket bolted to the rear chassis X-member, never did get to try it out towing a trailer.

[Faker]

3 hours ago, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

A Transit Smiley 230 I owned had a gross weight of 3995 ton, 5500 ton train weight and was 2300 ton unladen with the winch, spare wheel, basic recovery equipment and half a tank of fuel.

The extra half ton carrying capacity was usefull whenever I had  a Land Rover, Volvo 940 or something similar on it, although I never did get a pull from the Ministry to check the weight.

It didn't have a towbar, just a towball and bracket bolted to the rear chassis X-member, never did get to try it out towing a trailer.

That extra half ton would have been a massive help, although C1 license category. A lot of folk don’t realise that they have a very limited towing capability. DVSA are seriously clamping down now. So many light recovery vehicles towing a transporter trailer are over weight. 

[Faker]

I really should be ashamed of myself… “poacher turned gamekeeper”  and all that!!

Early 2000’s this was my first transporter….

was made from really heavy duty angle iron and very strong. No brakes, no suspension, no mud guards - but had silly buffer type extensions that sort of covered the wheels to offer some sort of protection for pedestrians (I suppose)… no jockey wheel.. had a boat winch too! Marvellous thing!! Towed it with a SWB semi high roof smiley transit… which had a towing capacity of 1.5t 🤣

 

Mates escort and van with the transporter

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

1 hour ago, Faker said:

That extra half ton would have been a massive help, although C1 license category. A lot of folk don’t realise that they have a very limited towing capability. DVSA are seriously clamping down now. So many light recovery vehicles towing a transporter trailer are over weight. 

Indeed, as are many 3.5 ton transporters when carrying anything bigger than an average euro-box.

The transporter man I currently use has sold his Sprinter and recently bought an Iveco 6.9 ton slide and tilt.

[Talbot]

6 hours ago, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

 

 

Very interesting that on that form, from a pull at the side of the road, the only thing they are checking is axle loads, vehicle weight and train weight.  At no point do they consider the trailer weight as a separate item.