POR 15 Fuel tank renovation........ Moving on to other problems.

[Remspoor]

This work is being carried out on an Austin Westminster. The tank holds around 72 litres  (16 gallons) of fuel when full. It is large. The location is behind the rear seats and at the front of the boot (trunk).

Before this work started I had previously removed some trim as I wanted to ascertain more about the up coming work.

I work in the open with no garage or cover.

The start

 

With the rest of the trim and odds and sods removed I tried to undo the straps holding the tank in-situ.

There are two straps which are bolted to the boot floor. The first difficulty was how to remove the rusted in nuts. Located underside of the car for around 58 years is not going to be easy. Plus I had to lower the spare wheel tray to gain access to one of the bolts. I needed to soak the nuts in oil. But how to gain access to them to do so? I also contemplated using a nut splitter. However, that would mean me using some of my precious hoard of imperial sized hardware.

So I turned my attention to the other end of the strap. I really wanted to remove the tank so that I could finish most of the treatment that day.

The other end of the straps are held position with a small pine held in with very small split pins. Although the split pins were not easy to remove when they came out. All I had to do was remove the wiring, fuel filler tube and the pipe to the pump and the tank was free. I then removed the float.

The tank is removed and this is the space where the tank normally sits.

The tank removed from the car.

The institutions on how to use POR15 can be found on line. The instructions on the some of the containers of this treatment do vary to that in the PDF.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0530/8887/8759/files/Instructions-POR-15-Fuel-Tank-Kit-En-Fr-V2.pdf?v=1615588415

Following their instructions

I had already drained the tank by using the pump. The car has an electric one so  that was easy.

I had a few drops left over and that went into the waste oil for recycling.

Inside the tank before cleaning.

With the tank now empty I proceeded to use the prescribed one to one mix of the POR degreaser and warm water. All orifices were seal using the prescribed duct tape. I did not use any chains or nuts and bolts to aid the cleansing as the tank has two baffle walls thus it may have been possible for something to get stuck behind one of the walls.

I only washed once using the degreaser as I did not see much in the way of contaminates. Surprisingly there was not so much rust.

 

I discovered a filter located just behind one of the baffle walls.  That was a surprise, I have never seen a reference to that before. Above is a photo after degreasing.

Now, I do not know if I have done something silly here. The instructions say that you should remove “ fuel petcock, float, filters, fittings, etc.” That filter is made of  plastic. It was sitting on the floor of the tank, thus could not be removed using a downward force. I used a long screw driver a crow bar and a jack handle it would not budge. Sometimes hitting them with a hammer too. The wife suggested I heat up a metal bar and melt away the filter. This took some time. But eventually it was removed.

 

Photo below with the filter removed. (that should read up up tube)

Photo below of the remains.

The question is will a normal small inline filter located inline between the tank and the pump be a suitable replacement?

like this...

I already have one after the pump.

Because removing the tank and the filter destruction took most of the day I had little time left to go on to the next stage of coating with the metal prep. I did not want to be working in the dark trying to dry out the tank. Day time temps are usually at the moment around 20 deg centigrade. It would be ideal that I could to the final step of sealing the tank during early afternoon. POR’s instructions on two of the liquid containers say ideal temperature should be around 70 or 72 Fahrenheit (21 or 22 Centigrade). That depends on which container you take as being correct. The PDF has nothing about temperature. Nothing like being consistent.

Work has stopped at the moment. Several reasons I had veggies to plant, maintenance on the land, cutting of fire wood, rain and low day time temps. This halt is allowing me time to soak the strap nuts in oil. I hope it will work.

When I carry on I will up date.

[Remspoor]

After a break in the work, I picked up with by “washing” the surfaces with the metal prep.
This was quite easy. Just poor from the bottle and swash around the tank as per the instructions. Obviously you have to seal off any openings before doing this. I used duct tape. Even so leaks occurred. Just wipe off any fluid which escapes.

The instructions on reverse side of metal prep bottle.

 

This is where the instructions and reality go in different directions, part 1.
They say that any bubbles forming in the rusted areas can be smoothed down using a sponge. I do not think they have tried to do that inside a fuel tank where you cannot get a sponge  into parts which you have no access too, like behind baffle walls. Beside how am I meant to control what is happening when I have sealed off the orifices with duct tape?

The inside of the tank after using the metal prep. Form the orifice for the level sender.

The metal prep (de-ruster) can be saved and used again. So what was left went back into the bottle.
Then a rinse with warm water.
The next step was to apply the fuel tank sealer. Instructions say that the tank must be thoroughly dry before the paint is applied. It is suggested using a hair dryer or hot air gun. I chose the latter taking care that I did not burn off the paint on the outside whilst warming up as much as possible the metal. Steam certainly escaped the orifices.

Stirring the sealer took a long long time. It is not viscous.
Again the orifices were sealed using duct tape. And I threaded an old inner speedo cable down the outlet pipe to save that getting total blocked up.

For the sender unit orifice, I choose to place the screws into the threads which hold the float and sender in place. This prevented getting any sealer in those threads and to stop the sealer entering any gaps between tank and lock ring. The suggested method of keeping any screw holes clear of sealant was to wipe away the liquid form the holes. I do not believe that would have been practicable.

This is where the instructions and reality go in different directions, part 2.

The instructions are to roll the tank slowly to ensure you get an even covering of the sealer. The tank weighs a lot and rolling it around was very difficult. Plus you could not see inside the tank due to the tape over the orifices. Most fuel tanks have baffle walls. On this one there is no way to see what is happening in one section of the tank with only the small outlet pipe in it. It was impossible to see what had happened on the roof of the tank too.
Plus not being the most fluid of liquids it seemed to pool in places, cling to some areas and not covering others. This can be seen in the photos.

View from the filler neck.

Inside of tank from the orifice for the level sender.

I left the duct tape on whilst the sealer dried- That was a mistake as it made the duct tape difficult to remove.

The images above speak for themselves. The end results are not great. I do feel that because the sealer is not runny enough. There are no instructions on how to make it thinner. Maybe it cannot be thinner because it would not adhere to the metal.

Next step was the removal of the hold down bolts and straps. There are two straps with a tee shaped thread and a nut. This is located under the car.
One side the Left has easy access, but the right-hand side is located right at the edge of the spare wheel tray. Access is very difficult. This one is the thread is bent.
The threads are way too long.

Below is the right-hand nut and thread. Looking towards the rear of the car. I could not get the phone straight enough to take a decent image. Hence the rotation. The fuel line has been moved to allow me access for welding on a box section under the passenger floor.

Below is the left-hand side, again looking towards the rear of the car.

A close up of the left thread and nut. Covered in oil.

I soaked the nuts, in oil by pouring it through the holes in the boot floor. Then tried to use a socket on one. That did not budge. I also damaged the strap whilst attempting to do this. I removed the nut by cutting it with my “Dremel”. I could not gain enough access to use a nut splitter. In hindsight I should have removed the nuts before I completely removed the tank. I was just too impatient and wanted to get on with preparing it for the coating.

Below is the end result of after the thread extraction.

I now am on a search for some sort of replacement. Maybe a local engineering workshop can make something for me. I have not seen anything like them before.

The top cross is held in situ by what looks like a piece of metal wrapped around it. However I cannot see any joins in that and I cannot see how the thread is joined to the metal holding the cross piece. The strap is made of very thin metal and I split one of the loops holing the thread in place.

Please if you have any ideas on where you can purchase similar threads let me know. Were they used on other BMC cars?

I would still like to hear about suggestions for replacement filter which was located in the tank.

In conclusion on the use of POR15:

I do not feel that this kit is value for money. It may protect the tank, but looking at coverage I can foresee issues in the coming years. But it is cheaper than a new Stainless Steel tank.

I feel the instructions should be the same on the PDF, the bottle of prep and the sealant. They do differ slightly.

The instructions do do conciser real world issues. like baffle walls and not being able to insect all of the inner surfaces.

I am lucky in that the day time temperatures are sufficiently warm to use the kit. Any colder and I would have had to pick work days for this task carefully.

[goosey]

I used the por 15 tank sealer on a small auxiliary petrol tank on my jeep when it had an LPG kit fitted. 
 

I didn’t have the time/ patients to remove the tank, so I removed the sender and pump unit cleaned the tank as best I could through the access whole and just poured the POR 15 in and spread it round with a paint brush then soaked the excess liquid up with a rag.

All this was done outside in the cold

That bodge job I did lasted 8 years and was still ok when I finally removed the LPG kit to put the car back to factory spec 

[Remspoor]

18 hours ago, goosey said:

I used the por 15 tank sealer on a small auxiliary petrol tank on my jeep when it had an LPG kit fitted. 
 

I didn’t have the time/ patients to remove the tank, so I removed the sender and pump unit cleaned the tank as best I could through the access whole and just poured the POR 15 in and spread it round with a paint brush then soaked the excess liquid up with a rag.

All this was done outside in the cold

That bodge job I did lasted 8 years and was still ok when I finally removed the LPG kit to put the car back to factory spec 

That sounds like a small tank. How did you cover the top section?

[tobyd]

I used some over vactan on a Yamaha Divvy tank and it adhered ok. Granted thats much easier than a 16 gallon tank - must have been at most 4 gallons and i use 1 473ml can and had plenty left over.

I left all the bolts in (i had a sacrificial 'filter') and tapped them out (twice, the first tap set was so poor it couldn't cut through the POR15). Everything inside coated fine but since i wasn't on any timescale i left the entire thing for 4 days with an old case fan blowing through it before putting the sealant in.

Maybe Vactan leaves a nicer surface but you'd like to think that the supplied etcher would be the tested and approved version?

Would use again, probably not on a car-sized tank.

[goosey]

3 hours ago, Remspoor said:

That sounds like a small tank. How did you cover the top section?

Think it was about 20ltr, rectangular in shape and no baffles.

as I had the complete sender and pump unit out I had a decent size hole to contort my arm round, hole was about 6 inch wide 

[Angrydicky]

I've used this stuff a few times before, but I've never used it as intended, for the exact reason you mention, it's just too thick to be able to get it to give an even covering over the bottom of the tank. 

I have, however, used it to paint over the outside of tanks, after repairs have been carried out, and it's brilliant at sealing pinholes. Almost like a paintable glue really.

[Asimo]

You can repair that T ended bolt. Clean the threads, and then with nuts on the thread to protect the thread,  straighten with hammer, vice, pliers etc.

then make a new end for the strap from a bit of mild steel. Measure the exact length and then make a template from something like plastic sheet first. Copy the template into steel. Only needs snips, drills and a file. Cut the broken end of the strap and  join the new bit on  with several small pop rivets or nuts/screws. Just like fitting a buckle to a leather belt really.

That filter is actually a screen to keep debris out of the pump. I would make a tube of gauze and slide it over the petrol pickup pipe. Secure with a hose clip. (This may not be possible because of access)

Anyway, Westminster - More pictures please!!!

[rusty998]

My friend recently used this stuff on a 50 year old W115 petrol tank with okay results, the tank had rust inside which needed to be removed before the seal was sloshed around inside, 

I suggested the use of brickwork cleaner Acid and old nuts and bolts, I got an odd look from my mate but assured him that it would work which it did, the tank had baffles inside but we managed to get all the old nuts and bolts out after, rinsed out with water after then fully dried before application of the tank sealant

 

[Remspoor]

Thanks for all the replies.

@tobyd I was not on a time scale either I just did not have a the heater to keep hot air blowing on it for four days.  The old electric bill must have shot up.

@goosey Unfortunately the holes for both the filler and level float are small.  on this tank.I could not even get my hand in side.

@Asimo Thanks for the tip about the strap. I have been giving some thought to the tee thread. Maybe I will attempt to make one from a rod to form the head and weld a thread to that. I wonder if the weld would be strong enough. I may have to butcher  (more than the one in the photo) the  other which is still on the car. Access is very difficult. Or maybe I can cut a small section of the spare wheel tray off.  Images do not give it justice as to just how badly it is located. I do not have measurements to how deep the tank is but adding a filter or similar to the end is impossible. It is too deep.

I present to you The Westie.

@rusty998 The baffles in this tank only have one small gap, which are at the bottom of each wall. One has the outlet pipe in the middle.  I never seen Fertan before.

 

 

[Mally]

The T bolt will be strong enough just welded together.

If not sure , weld a practise one and hit it with a hammer in a vice, to see if it bends or breaks,

End of the strap the same, just form a loop and weld it on.

Filter on the outside of the tank will be fine, but check it often,  in case some of the treatment/rust comes loose in the tank.

[tobyd]

I think it was free* i used on old lawn mower battery (12v) connected to the case fan and just taped it to the filler hole, i just wanted airflow through the tank. Now i think about it, a smol fan heater pointed at it would have probably had it cured in 12 hours...

[Remspoor]

In a previous post I was writing about the difficulties of handling the tank. Here are the approx dimensions. The tank is not right rectangular prism shaped.

Width 950mm

Depth 310mm

Height 390mm

Hole 50mm

Depth from top to filter (at a slight angle 300mm)

It is a large tank and getting my hand into either the filler pipe or the orifice for the level is impossible.

 

Back to the fixings that hold the tank.

The thread and nut on the right-hand side was very challenging to remove.

The image below shows the view on the rear wheel arch, with the wheel removes. The thread sits behind the box section hidden in this view.

To get a spanner on to the thread, I had to reach from the front of the axle to the line marked.

The next image is showing how little access there was. It is looking towards the front of the car. Sorry it is poorly focused.

The following image illustrates how hidden the thread is .  This is looking towards the front with the spare wheel tray lowered.

 

The thread was severely bent and access to the nut was obstructed partly by the spare wheel tray (see image below). Then with all the contortion to get an arm from the front of the axle through the suspension parts and axle damper shock. It was impossible for me to get any leverage on it. So like the left-hand side I ended up cutting it. This time I cut through the thread and nut because it was easier than trying to spin off a sliced up nut passed that misshaped thread.

I purchased some rounded bar the same diameter as the original. I looked through my hoard of nuts and bolts to find something suitable to make the thread up.

I did think about leaving the head of the bolt on and cutting the thread to suit. However, I opted to cut the head off. It would bot sit well with the strap and boot floor. Plus I had a nice starting thread if I cut the head off. I did not want the threads to be the same length as that was on the car. They were way too long.

I followed advice and welded the rounded bar and thread together. I am not a brilliant welder and I have a gasless MIG, because I work outside. Thus, my welds never look great. So a fair bit of grinding was done. At first I used the angle grinder. But that was not very controllable. I ended up using the mini grinder with a diamond grinding burr. Images show the result. I feel I cannot remove any more metal so that it fits snugly in the hole of the boot floor. Welding is strong as is. Maybe I will make the holes slightly larger.

[Remspoor]

I have managed to open one of the straps which hold the tank. This had to be done so that I could insert my made up tee threads.

This is a copy of an image posted above.

The strap is bent around the head of the thread. Then welded to the larger section. There are six spot welds to hold that in situ. In the past someone had applied a coating of underseal to the strap on the exposed side. And then only over the section which covers the side of the tank not the top. All very odd, but some of the work undertaken of this car is odd.

I do not have a photo of this at the moment. But it was a bit of a cock-up. I drilled out the spot welds.  This now makes the end look like a bit of Swiss cheese.

I will post photos later.

I was recommended this video from John Twist renown US based MG expert. Fuel tanks of the B, with the tops cut off. It seems as if they also had that small filter in the tanks. The early ones are just as impossible to remove as the one from the Austin. Even with the top cut off.

 

[Remspoor]

I am find great difficulty in finding a grommet for the tank drain plug.

I am looking for one which is 2" dia. (@51mm) I have searched in several languages but all I can find are wholesalers who want me to purchase hundreds. Obviously 2" is not going to be a size used much there days but even metric ones of a size which is almost the same are proving elusive.

I have thought about cutting a piece of inner tube and sticking it to the boot floor with windscreen sealant. I can if I feel it necessary cut a hole in that for the drain plug.

Has anyone got any alternative tips on how to make a blind grommet?

PS the small split pins that stop the bar at  the top  the straps from sliding out.

I really thought this would be a simple job.

 

[Remspoor]

Forgot to post the last image  of the tank installed.

I just reused the old 2" grommet for the drain plug. Gluing a bit of old inner tube around the hole to protect the plus a bit. I then sealed up the slightly cracked grommet with a small bit of windscreen sealant.