The oldest Land-Rover Series 3 around - new boots arrived

[mat_the_cat]

This week has been crazily busy, but yesterday I got an hour or so to work on the gearbox. By selecting 1st and reverse at the same time, I could lock the shafts and tighten the layshaft bolt (also loctited in). Also bent over the tabs securing the layshaft bearing carrier.

Then I could install the cover plate. I'm not usually a fan of gasket sealants - I generally prefer a light smear of grease on the gasket - but in this case given the hassle a leak would cause, used a sealant instead. It came in a handy 'pen' applicator, so easy to only apply a thin layer.

In place inside the bellhousing...

...and one more job ticked off.

The forecast is set to get warmer, which is good news as I was worried about manipulating a split seal over the crankshaft when cold. Don't want to risk straining it and causing damage.

[mat_the_cat]

Crank seal - that is officially a nightmare job! The recommended way of doing it is to fit the top seal retainer to the engine with crank out, fit the seal to the crank, then lower the crankshaft into the engine. Googling it seemed to give the consensus that it was a fiddly enough job with the engine out, let alone laying on your back doing it from below. And one chap who replaced it twice  and it still leaked. He didn't post back up with a happy ending, which didn't fill me full of confidence! 

So, what does the job entail? First of all the slightly awkward job of looping the spring around the crank, and joining the ends without stretching the spring too much.

OK, that wasn't too bad. Next, open up the seal and fit over the crank, making sure the split is at the top (more on that later).

Then, tease the spring into the groove of the seal, keeping the join at 90 degrees to the split in the seal. Again, fiddly but doable.

The worst part is fitting the seal retainers (which give the seal its shape) and keeping the seal square to the crank. The difficulty is attaching the top retainer to the block, as to insert the fixing screws you need to rotate the crank. And if you rotate the crank, the upper bearing shell can spin. I settled for loosely locating the upper retainer on its dowels, and bringing up the lower retainer to meet it, attached to the  bearing cap.

But first I needed to fit the T seals to the cap.

Then make up some plastic guide pieces, to stop the cork seals being damaged sliding into the block recess.

These have a slight taper to compress the seals as the cap moves upwards.

Part way in, and I can fit the lower retainer. Gradually tapping the bearing cap upwards, checking with a mirror that I haven't trapped the crank seal.

Eventually the cap was in place, and I could fit the seal retainer screws. I rotated the crank so that the cut-out was in line with the screw holes - and the seal promptly span inside the retainer

All apart again, and repeat. This time keeping the seal retainers tight to the block, and once the bearing cap was in place, I tightened up the lower retainer and secured the seal before rotating the crank.

The sump is now on, and I still have a bit of reassembly to do before I can start the engine and find out whether I've been successful. If it leaks I think I will cry!

[Tickman]

Fingers crossed for the seal.

Quite in-depth tinkering especially with cold fingers.

[warch]

Shit! That looks properly nasty, what an awful design. Proper five spanner job as we Haynes aficionados like to say. 
 

My Landrover has had a slightly weeping rear seal for decades but having seen your post I’m not minded to consider renewing it. I did do the front crank seal a few years ago, that dumped a load of oil after I started it but has been oil tight ever since.

[catsinthewelder]

Well done Mat.  I remember having an awful time replacing the crank seal on the ex DW Discovery.  What I learnt was that I could start and run the engine before refitting the gearbox to check for leaks.  

[mat_the_cat]

5 hours ago, warch said:

Shit! That looks properly nasty, what an awful design. Proper five spanner job as we Haynes aficionados like to say. 
 

My Landrover has had a slightly weeping rear seal for decades but having seen your post I’m not minded to consider renewing it. I did do the front crank seal a few years ago, that dumped a load of oil after I started it but has been oil tight ever since.

I was slightly weeping when the seal span round! The later 5 main bearing engines are better in this respect, as they have a more conventional one-piece seal. I'm guessing yours is still the original engine though. I started about 10, had a brief stop for lunch and only got back into the house at half 7, so now you have a target to beat  I was going to do the front seal too if I needed to change the bearing shells, but as I can't see an obvious leak I will leave for now.

2 hours ago, catsinthewelder said:

Well done Mat.  I remember having an awful time replacing the crank seal on the ex DW Discovery.  What I learnt was that I could start and run the engine before refitting the gearbox to check for leaks.  

Thanks, yes, I will definitely be checking for leaks before reattaching the gearbox! It might be nice to have a warm lump of metal to work around too.

[mat_the_cat]

You can see from the photo above that access to the oil filter is easier without the flywheel cover in place, so that was the next job. It was due a service anyway, and at least I know the sump is spotless!

I'd already cleaned the flywheel cover, and re-loctited in the studs which had wound out.  So I could put off the moment of truth no longer...

Filled it up with warm oil (to hopefully prime more easily) and fired it up. After running it up to temperature I left it for a couple of hours, and checked for any leakage.

Result! Well, at least there's no major leaks, so I can get on with refitting the clutch and gearbox.

[mat_the_cat]

Another minor milestone ticked off!

Clutch was fitted (I'd already replaced the spigot bearing) and release bearing was installed after cleaning and greasing up the arm pivots.

Then I decided to replace the gearbox before connecting it up to the transfer box. I may be wrong, but think it may be easier than trying to align the whole unit on a crane, working on my own. This way I could reasonably easily manhandle the gearbox, and slot it in place fairly quickly. 

Will it work? Place your bets!

[warch]

The actual gearbox is a tiddly little thing and I think I am right is saying is derived from an old Rover car unit. The transfer box is massive and off centre and unbalances the whole unit when you’re trying to line them up to refit it to the engine.

I still can’t get over the cleanliness of your Rover Mat, most old Landrovers I’ve seen leak oil from absolutely everything with oil in.

[mat_the_cat]

13 hours ago, warch said:

The actual gearbox is a tiddly little thing and I think I am right is saying is derived from an old Rover car unit. The transfer box is massive and off centre and unbalances the whole unit when you’re trying to line them up to refit it to the engine.

You are correct, and I've actually used the 3rd/4th gear synchro assembly for a P4 in this, as all information I could find suggested it was the same part, just with a part number change. 

That was exactly my logic with reassembly, and it worked reasonably well. Both sections I could easily move by hand into position.

Once the transfer box was attached to the main gearbox I could refit the intermediate gear:

Which rotates on this shaft which is tappen into place.

The bottom of the transfer box was screwed on, and the output flange attached before I could fill with oil. Moment of truth time!

 

[mat_the_cat]

Now I was half confident that the gearbox was functional, I could replace the floor, seats and soundproofing etc. I'd noticed during removal that the boot for the high/low ratio lever had split, and the one for the handbrake was also perishing. I'd replaced the latter a couple of years ago with a Bearmach part, in the hope it'd be better quality than Britpart. Maybe it was but still not great. I've had a few EAC items, and that's what I got to replace the boots with...time will tell but fit at least was good.

With the floor in place the only thing stopping me taking it for a drive was finishing the service by renewing the points. I'd gone for OEM quality, but on comparison there were a few differences to the originals.

I'm not sure when they were last changed, but the rotor arm was made in 1993!

No visible need to change that, but I'd like to keep a spare arm and condenser with me, just in case. Problem is I'm getting very wary of new parts, especially condensers from what I hear!

Anyway, the points were easily replaced and gapped, so I could take it for a proper drive. 35 miles later and I think it's been a success! Whine is much improved - I think there is some from the rear diff, but I have plans for that. Shifting had no graunches, with 1st to 2nd been easier to engage than previously. Selecting 3rd or 4th is smoother than before, but requires more effort - probably due to having all 3 springs in place! And no drips visible either

So, what are my thoughts on a job which I had previously shied away from for fear of messing it up? I realise that it's a pretty simple gearbox but on the whole it's not an especially difficult job. It seemed pretty time-consuming, and I can see the difference between the £200 parts cost and the £1k+ for a rebuilt 'box. TBH, a fair amount of the time was repeating things to get clearances down to the bottom end of the tolerances, and perhaps someone not doing it for themselves would settle to get values anywhere in spec. Which may be perfectly good - I may have just been making work for myself.

Next big thing is probably tyres, as I notice they are starting to perish slightly. The current ones are winter tyres, and I'd like to stick with similar given that it's likely to be age which drives replacement rather than wear. Trouble is, the choice of 7.50r16 tyres is fairly limited. I'm OK if I want aggressive, mud terrain type tread patterns. But these whilst OK in deep snow, I think will be too compromised for normal use, and pretty poor in my experience on hard-packed snow. Most of the off-roading I'll be doing is in fields which are just too soft to support a vehicle's weight when wet (hence I wont risk it), but in summer there is reasonable grip on the dry grass. BFG A/Ts would be ideal, but not available in the right size! Any ideas and experiences welcome.

[Matty]

Distributor doctor. @SiCput me onto them, proper quality ignition parts. About as fit and forget as points and condenser ignition can be

[mat_the_cat]

Funnily enough I was looking at their website yesterday - I remembered them from a Practical Classics article years ago on the reconditioning of distributors. At the time they were bemoaning the quality of spares available for them to use, so seems like they have branched out into supplying bits they've had remanufactured. Long term my plan is to fit a mappable 123 distributor to the Stellar, which will free up the existing Lumenition kit for swapping into this. Man maths means it's effectively free electronic ignition for the Landy!

[jonathan_dyane]

Nice work on the gearbox.

Maybe these might fit the bill?

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m62b0s13260p156374/Bridgestone_Tyres_Car_Bridgestone_AT001_Dueler_Bridgestone_AT_001_-_750_R16_C_114_112N_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_D_Wet_Grip%3A_D_NoiseClass%3A_B_Noise%3A_72dB

[mat_the_cat]

That's a good shout actually, as despite being listed as summer tyres they have the 3PMSF approval.  And for the kind of use I give it should be a good compromise. Must admit I do like the look of these on an old Landy, but seems sensible to make the most of tyre improvements over the years.

https://www.trucktyresdirect.co.uk/product/750-x-16-8pr-deestone-d503-extra-traction-land-rover-t-t-112l/

Another little job I need to do is solve a fuel vaporisation issue. A couple of times when parked up after low speed work during the heatwave, the mechanical pump wasn't able to pump what had turned to vapour whilst at cranking speed. Fairly easy to fix by filling the fuel filter from a jerry can, but a minor hassle. I'm planning to mount an electric pump by the tank in parallel with the existing pickup, which I can temporarily operate in such a situation.

[somewhatfoolish]

4 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

Next big thing is probably tyres, as I notice they are starting to perish slightly. The current ones are winter tyres, and I'd like to stick with similar given that it's likely to be age which drives replacement rather than wear. Trouble is, the choice of 7.50r16 tyres is fairly limited. I'm OK if I want aggressive, mud terrain type tread patterns. But these whilst OK in deep snow, I think will be too compromised for normal use, and pretty poor in my experience on hard-packed snow. Most of the off-roading I'll be doing is in fields which are just too soft to support a vehicle's weight when wet, but in summer there is reasonable grip on the dry grass. BFG A/Ts would be ideal, but not available in the right size! Any ideas and experiences welcome.

Not looking forward to the cost of that for mine; the tyres aren't cracking but the level of wet grip on tarmac has been dropping noticeably in the last couple of years, the ease with which I can now lock the front wheels is exciting but not in a good way and I won't drive it far if it's likely to rain.

[warch]

Regarding the vapourisation issue, does your lift pump have a primer? I usually give that a few pumps if I haven’t run it for several weeks. I had a stalling issue in the heatwave ( on the South Wales M4) which I solved by cleaning out the bowl on the lift pump and replacing the fuel filter. As I mentioned before my Speed Triple is an absolute sod to start on E10 if I’ve left it for any length of time.

Well done on the gearbox, I commend your workmanship. 

[mat_the_cat]

Ooh, that's a good question! I didn't notice one, but will have a look. I had no problems starting after almost two months while it was in bits, just the two occasions when very hot. Ironically the only fuel I had on board was 2 stroke Aspen at around £4 a litre, so tried not to spill too much whilst filling the filter

[mat_the_cat]

7 hours ago, warch said:

Regarding the vapourisation issue, does your lift pump have a primer?

Just been out to check, and yes it does! Gave it a few wiggles and the fuel filter filled up nicely, so that's one job off the list. Although...in the event of a fuel pump failure I'd be scuppered, so I'm wondering about mounting an electric pump by the tank just in case, as it would then be a simple job to splice it in. Or just chucking a spare pump and wiring under the passenger seat.

In other news, the odometer has stopped working and after my previous trials and tribulations with it am tempted to throw in the towel. I'm more and more convinced it is a poor quality pattern part and not the genuine Jaeger part it was sold as.

[leafsprung]

235 85 16 Insa Turbo Ranger (BFG A/T copy) on lwb rims. Get past the remould stigma and they're actually a decent shout. I ran them on my daily Defender for years with no problems at all. The wear rate was very good, there was no cracking or separation and road manners were indistinguishable to new stuff, probably ever less of an issue with leaf springs. The carcasses were all identical internally too. 

I always wanted 7.50s on my Series for originality. They're fine if you need mud plugging ability or the old school looks. Not great if you are dailying it and want any kind of braking ability in the wet or are on a budget. 

[warch]

The Series 2/3 fuel pump is engine driven and normally pretty reliable, although there is a diaphragm which can fail and it can get clogged with rust from an elderly tank or shit old fuel. I much prefer it to the electric pump in the Series 1, plus they’re much cheaper to replace, if awkwardly sited. 
 

235s are about 9 inches wide so not miles away from OE sizes (only the one tonne and forward control models were equipped with 900 16 tyre). A high profile 205 tyre might be similar in dimensions to a 750 16. I much prefer narrow tyres for Landrovers they look better and are better for off road traction. They also reduce drag and make the steering less heavy. The main issue for on road use is radial ply which improve steering and feel (insofar as you’d notice) and the age of the tyres which must affect grip and comfort (insofar as you’d notice). I’d like a new set of tyres but haven’t seen a set I’d like yet (currently on 7.50 Goodyear G90s).

[mat_the_cat]

10 hours ago, leafsprung said:

235 85 16 Insa Turbo Ranger (BFG A/T copy) on lwb rims. Get past the remould stigma and they're actually a decent shout. I ran them on my daily Defender for years with no problems at all. The wear rate was very good, there was no cracking or separation and road manners were indistinguishable to new stuff, probably ever less of an issue with leaf springs. The carcasses were all identical internally too. 

I always wanted 7.50s on my Series for originality. They're fine if you need mud plugging ability or the old school looks. Not great if you are dailying it and want any kind of braking ability in the wet or are on a budget. 

I've got no particular issues with remoulds, but it was the wider size which put me off -  it's still £400 which is a fair whack to find the steering is annoyingly heavy. If they did 'em in 7.50 width I'd have them no doubt. I might be worrying about nothing - but without knowing, I'm a little wary.

7 hours ago, warch said:

The Series 2/3 fuel pump is engine driven and normally pretty reliable, although there is a diaphragm which can fail and it can get clogged with rust from an elderly tank or shit old fuel. I much prefer it to the electric pump in the Series 1, plus they’re much cheaper to replace, if awkwardly sited. 
 

235s are about 9 inches wide so not miles away from OE sizes (only the one tonne and forward control models were equipped with 900 16 tyre). A high profile 205 tyre might be similar in dimensions to a 750 16. I much prefer narrow tyres for Landrovers they look better and are better for off road traction. They also reduce drag and make the steering less heavy. The main issue for on road use is radial ply which improve steering and feel (insofar as you’d notice) and the age of the tyres which must affect grip and comfort (insofar as you’d notice). I’d like a new set of tyres but haven’t seen a set I’d like yet (currently on 7.50 Goodyear G90s).

Think I'll just chuck an electric pump in the seat box compartment TBH. I'll probably never need it, but nice to have. That plus a condenser and coil should cover the most likely potential 'fail without warning' parts.

I think the 205r16 is closer to the 6.0 x 16 tyre in diameter, so would drop the gearing, require a different speedo (might need one anyway though...I sold the original!) and look a bit odd with the slight raise from the parabolic springs. It's not a desperate issue at the moment as the current tyres don't seem to have lost grip yet, and are only starting to deteriorate.

 

[The_Equalizer]

On my Series 3 there were Michelin XPCs which I'm presuming were factory fitted for Defenders at some point. Subsequently I've now Michelin Latitude Cross 7.50 R16 on the front and these massively improved the steering, making it lighter and more precise (well as precise as steering on a Series can be.) They are verging on eye wateringly expensive, but I'll be sticking with them come replacement time. For what it is worth, this has been for road use only. From the spot linked to by  @mat_the_cat which seems about as cheap* as I can find them:

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m62b0s13260p102023/Michelin_Tyres_Car_Michelin_Latitude_Cross_-_750_R16_112S_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_D_Wet_Grip%3A_B_NoiseClass%3A_B_Noise%3A_72dB

[mat_the_cat]

15 minutes ago, The_Equalizer said:

On my Series 3 there were Michelin XPCs which I'm presuming were factory fitted for Defenders at some point.

That's what I have now, and I think you're right - the PO bought a set of Defender wheels and tyres for it. I'm happy with their grip for everything I've used it for, but steering isn't exactly light! The Latitude Cross were another tyre on the shortlist, but unsure on their winter capabilities. 

[The_Equalizer]

2 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

That's what I have now, and I think you're right - the PO bought a set of Defender wheels and tyres for it. I'm happy with their grip for everything I've used it for, but steering isn't exactly light! The Latitude Cross were another tyre on the shortlist, but unsure on their winter capabilities. 

Winter road use seems fine. I do try to avoid using it when there's salt on the road, but that's for the obvious chassis corrosion issues and nothing to do with tyre grip. It was the transformation with the steering with Latitude Cross. Huge difference. I must get the swivels sorted early next year which will be another improvement.

[leafsprung]

16 hours ago, mat_the_cat said:

I've got no particular issues with remoulds, but it was the wider size which put me off -  it's still £400 which is a fair whack to find the steering is annoyingly heavy. If they did 'em in 7.50 width I'd have them no doubt. I might be worrying about nothing - but without knowing, I'm a little wary.

 

 There's no series with 'light' steering, but I'm sure you appreciate that already! The width difference between 7.50 and 235s is so piffling that in a Series you just won't notice the difference. I've lost count of the number of Series I've driven over the years, all with different tyre combinations and I've never found the steering in any to be unmanageable (compared to factory fresh stock set ups) and I'm not exactly a circus strongman. On my first Series 3 I went from a mismatched set of mainly ancient road biased all terrains on the original swb rims up to 1 ton rims (£20 each from a stall at Billing c.1998!!) with 235/85 BFG Trac Edge. The difference was really unnoticeable. 

[mat_the_cat]

I think I mentioned earlier that I was becoming more and more convinced that the new speedo I'd got in 2020 was actually a pattern part sold as genuine  I'd managed to repair it and get the speed within ±3mph between 30 and 50mph, but to do this it sat at 15mph whilst stationary. A minor irritation, but the final straw was when the odometer failed. I didn't want to be in the same boat again, paying over the odds for a substandard part, so I took a chance on a NOS item. First impressions were good...

...but second impressions less so.

But thinking about it, further suggests it is a real old stock part and not one made out of case hardened cheese, sent in an old box. I had the idea of taking the previous speedo apart, and making one which is both nice looking AND functional, from the two. In doing so I noticed that the previous one didn't have the Jaeger logo either, although still apparently made in the UK...

The new/old one wasn't all that bad TBH, and just benefited from swapping the bezel and glass - resulting in this (ignoring the fingerprints!)

Trouble was, that made the other gauges look even worse!

This has clearly been (badly) painted in the past, and was damp inside too. But now I had a spare bezel, I could tidy that up and replace the glass

Time for a tentative test drive and RESULT! It's agreeing within 1mph with a speedometer app, right over the range 20-60mph. Needle is rock steady too; the old one bouncing I'd put down to cable friction as that is the usual cause.  I didn't realise how much I'd got used to it until it worked properly for once. And here's a night shot after the test drive.

Onto Christmas present fitting, and that was a pair of door cards. I'm not sure whether it ever had ones originally (I know that some did) but if it did they had long gone. I'd added a bit of sound deadening, but that was it.

It might be against the ethos of simplicity, but I like having a bit of trim. Bordering on luxury now!

[DeanH]

They're nice. Makes a big difference to how comfortable it looks.

Do you have any recommendations for LR forums to keep an eye out on for a reasonably priced rolling project? Ideally early S3 ish.

[lexi]

Yes. Series 3 should have a lovely oily plastic smell inside. Soon as you jump in............ah Bisto!

[Crackers]

On 04/01/2023 at 21:15, mat_the_cat said:

Bordering on luxury now!

I hate to tell you this, but all you've done is make the inside of the door a bit closer to your elbow so you'll clonk it more often