project 2002 Renault Clio II 172

[SiC]

11 minutes ago, sickboy said:

Glad you said that Si!! I thought  I was mad!!

Truth be told, were it not for lockdown and winter, my 182 would be on the market already 🙄

Maybe I just haven’t driven it enough yet. I hardly drive at all during the week anyway, and am doing even less miles because lockdown, but I’m not feeling the hype either. 

It gives me a dilema on what car I really like. So far the only "toy" car that I can think of never parting with is the MGB GT. Maybe that says more about me than I'd like to think 🤣

But that car is not much fun with on long journeys. Hence I'd like a modern car that can do that. To be honest, the Boxster can do that perfectly adequately while having a way nicer driving feel (while still having a slight old school feel to it), dated but much nicer place to be sat and of course the 6-pot noise aroma. Seats are a lot nicer in it too! I guess possibly a 911 996/997 would be the best all round car for me as a modern long termer. Shame they're like three times over my budget. 

I'm really hoping that the E28 will give me another one of those fun classic cars but being slightly more practical for longer journeys.

 

As for the Clio? This is the problem for me:

I was hoping this would be less of the case being a more older design hot hatch. But even this, if you want to get into the fun zone of 5k+ dephaser kicking in, you can only do it in 2nd without either going way too fast on anything but a motorway. 1st gear just breaks traction on full throttle and you end up needing to shift shortly after. 3rd gear you're doing pretty much the speed limit at 5k.

I had this exact same problem with the TT mk2. Possibly even worse as that was still very much planted at above those speeds (on a private race track of course 'govner).

Both also sound pretty grim with that 4-pot soundtrack. Clio drones at 4k-ish, so I end up using the highest gear possible. TT just sounded like ... like every other boring 4 cylinder engine and had no character.

The Boxster is the same, but you have the roof down so you have the enjoyment of the smells, chilled wind, sounds and sights. So you can happily potter along at 30-60mph enjoying that. Then booting it to get the flat-6 music.

 

Hrmph

[SiC]

13 minutes ago, Split_Pin said:

I found the savage delivery of the power very much part of the fun! But I appreciate it's not for everybody.

The shit interior annoyed me a bit but the spec was good on mine and it was comfy. It looked and sounded great too although mine had a snazzy exhaust of some sort.

I'd have kept mine if my Corsa hadn't required so much welding and I'd have got the 172 welded but as it stood one had to go. Plus I wanted another 75 and the perfect one came up right on cue.

Its fun for a bit, but then its got boring. I knew they weren't that quick, but they don't feel particularly quick to me either. The TT on paper was similar, but that power delivery was far more savage being attached to a DSG box.

Trying to put my thoughts into a feeling:

Launching off the line in the Clio/a FWD car feels what must a dog is like when they're trying to scrabble off the line on a slippy surface. Bouncing up and down as the legs try to get traction. Continue doing so until eventually the feet bite into the ground.

Launching off the line in the Boxster is like a toy car that has elastic attached to it. The elastic is being pulled back as the tyres spin for grip off the line, then once they do you shoot off with the backend squatting slightly.

[Split_Pin]

Ever since you got the 172 I could tell you weren't 100% gelling with it, but whenever I read your Boxter updates I don't get that impression at all. I think it does a lot of things you want all at the one time.

I had the going fast problem too. Between work and family commitments, I just didn't have the time to go for random B road blasts by myself which was what the 172 deserved. Nor did I want to as I'd rather my Mrs and son were with me. He was terrified of the 172. For fun family jaunts, the Audi with the top down returns 3 smiles to the gallon. 

Hope you work something out.

[KitKat]

19 minutes ago, SiC said:

But even this, if you want to get into the fun zone of 5k+ dephaser kicking in, you can only do it in 2nd without either going way too fast on anything but a motorway. 1st gear just breaks traction on full throttle and you end up needing to shift shortly after. 3rd gear you're doing pretty much the speed limit at 5k.

I agree.

I find that 90% of the time,  with general day to day driving, they just don’t feel “special” enough.  I’ve long learnt I just don’t enjoy driving fast. I hardly ever explore 5k+ rpm in anything,  so if that’s the 172/182 fun zone, I can probably conclude I’m much better suited to a more sedate car.  Another Volvo, say 🙂

I’m happy put it down as an itch scratched and a lesson learnt. 

Can’t you just use the Boxter in place of the Clio? @SiC

[SiC]

3 hours ago, Split_Pin said:

Ever since you got the 172 I could tell you weren't 100% gelling with it, but whenever I read your Boxter updates I don't get that impression at all. I think it does a lot of things you want all at the one time.

I had the going fast problem too. Between work and family commitments, I just didn't have the time to go for random B road blasts by myself which was what the 172 deserved. Nor did I want to as I'd rather my Mrs and son were with me. He was terrified of the 172. For fun family jaunts, the Audi with the top down returns 3 smiles to the gallon. 

It didn't help that it properly broke in the first few hundred miles of ownership! Ok I could have done it cheaper by using a second hand pulley and reusing the belts (or using @dome nearly new set), but as it was supposed to be a keeper I thought I'd get it all sorted for long term. Because of that, I feel compelled to use it and get my money back through use. Not sure how much they're worth at the moment, but this owes me I think about £1800-ish. Unlikely to get that back just yet, so it has to earn it's keep in the meantime. 

Where we live now there are a few good roads that I can get a good blast on. I enjoy driving quickly but get massive paranoia about getting a big (or any) speeding ticket. Especially nowadays with the mobile motorbike speed cameras. Also so many roads have been dumbed down from a 60mph national to a really long 40mph just because there is a tight bends in a many mile distance that a few people have stacked it on going too quickly. Despite perfectly safe to do national speeds on the majority of that road. 

It's especially worse as popular roads get mentioned online and people end up flocking to them. Then idiots do really stupid things and then spoil it for everyone. Cheddar Gorge near me spring to mind for that. Terribly busy during the day with tourists, cyclists and pedestrians. Evenings then full of idiots doing burnouts and donuts. Or racing each other up and down the Gorge.

Mrs SiC also moans when I drive quick. I usually get the deep suck of breath when I ever go to overtake. Despite usually having miles of clear road ahead!

 

3 hours ago, sickboy said:

I agree.

I find that 90% of the time,  with general day to day driving, they just don’t feel “special” enough.  I’ve long learnt I just don’t enjoy driving fast. I hardly ever explore 5k+ rpm in anything,  so if that’s the 172/182 fun zone, I can probably conclude I’m much better suited to a more sedate car.  Another Volvo, say 🙂

I’m happy put it down as an itch scratched and a lesson learnt. 

Can’t you just use the Boxter in place of the Clio? @SiC

On modern stuff, I've never been afraid to use the full rev range. It's what it's there for and most engines like it!

The Clio engine is torquey low down but when the dephaser alters the timing at 5k, it's a digital switch. So like Honda VTEC you get quick acceleration, even quicker. So if you're stuck behind someone doing 30 or 40mph in a national, drop it to second and then shoot off past. Possibly needing a quick upshift into third if it's a longer line of cars. Which is why I think so many have their 3rd gear killed. 😆

The Clio I don't find special in anyway. It's just a cheap standard econo-box with a big fat engine shoe horned in the front and well setup suspension!

I have thought about using the Boxster as a main car and it's going through my mind at the moment. However, even though it's not really worth much (Cat D and 986 aren't massive money really), it still looks tidy and smart. Plus it's not the cheapest or most solid of cars to run - a bit needy at times. This is the other reason why the Clio is staying for now - at least through winter and possibly spring. It's currently not been washed for a few months and I don't have to care about that. Paint already has a few scuffs and scratches, so I don't have to worry about it getting dirty and salty. 

A Volvo or similar for me would have the exact same problem as the Laguna I had - our A4 fits the large car needs perfectly for us. The Clio is small enough to squidge past on single track minor roads that are around here (no doubt the same in your end of Somerset too), while not worrying if I clip the mirror or run against a bush. Also a doddle to park and not worry about a eejit denting the doors. Couldn't do that with a larger car and would end up having to reverse. Boxster is quite a wide car so would need to reverse and I really don't want to screw up the bodywork by catching it on a hedge. Something more likely to happen if I use it as a local runaround. 

I'm kinda hoping the E28 will take over the local running around type of journeys. Paintwork is ok but not great. Lacquer is a bit scratchy in areas anyway and has those nice fat door rubber strips that used to be popular. It's also a cooler looking car imo. Probably not as good in an accident though!

[Noel Tidybeard]

just face it you need to bin the clito and renew your love of spaceship- just maybe the 2 litre version 😉

vtech YO

[dome]

Your statement here is, surely, the very essence of what a hot hatch should be?

8 hours ago, SiC said:

 

It's just a cheap standard econo-box with a big fat engine shoe horned in the front and well setup suspension!

 

It's not going to compare to a Boxster which has been designed from the outset to be a rewarding sports car. The fact it can be so good when it is based on a mundane platform speaks wonders for what Renault were able to design(even if the actual building of them was a slightly haphazard affair).

The Boxster will also feel special on a run to the shops when a 1*2 will never do that. 

I can understand where you're coming from though. On the right road/track, on the right day, a Clio 172/Civic Type R is a wonderful thing to drive. Where and when you get the chance to get in this zone is another thing entirely. In the Kangoo I spend most of the time enjoying the feeling of a big torquey engine in a small car van which I personally love-I get happy memories of my Mk2 Golf GTi and 205 1.9s I've owned.  I love the sleeper vibe and the induction roar which is addictive. I save my fast driving for the MR2 on track though. 

I'd not had a fast small FWD car for many years til I got my 182-it was blast from the past and I'm glad I did. I guess it's time for you to move it on-hold off to the spring and you should get decent money for it. 

[SiC]

Small update. Pulled this out of storage as it needs an MOT this month.


However all is not well. Went up a steep hill coming back and it started bucking under heavy load. Felt a bit like misfire but not that severe.

Literally just been for a spirited drive and ran fine, with it appearing to rev cleanly. No noticeable bucking or misfiring. However noticed that it was lumpy at idle - more than I remember a RS Clio should do.

However these fuel trims look suspect to me.
What do we reckon, Injectors rather than Coil/plugs?

Coil+plugs have been done a couple of years ago. Injectors are (afaik) original to the car and done 150k...

[dome]

Give it a fresh tank fuel and take it out and kick it's arse. It'll either sort itself out or break, either way it should be fun...

[SiC]

Just now, dome said:

Give it a fresh tank fuel and take it out and kick it's arse. It'll either sort itself out or break, either way it should be fun...

It's got half a tank in it, so got some burning off to do before filing it back up. I'd be highly surprised if it was fuel as it hasn't been sitting that long with it. 

[SiC]

Looking back I reckon the fuel in there is 4 months old max. 

[Split_Pin]

It will almost certainly be the injectors man.

Swap the existing  injectors to see if the misfire moves cylinder. A cheap code reader should pick that up from what I recall.

 

[SiC]

4 minutes ago, Split_Pin said:

It will almost certainly be the injectors man.

Swap the existing  injectors to see if the misfire moves cylinder. A cheap code reader should pick that up from what I recall.

 

No misfire codes are being reported, only can tell by ear. Might pull the plugs and have a look at them. Pulling plugs is a right pain in the arse to do on the Clio though. 

[SiC]

Did some fiddling tonight to see if I could pin down this slightly rough idle and the low long term fuel trim. Low long term fuel trim means the ECU is injecting less fuel as it thinks it's running too rich. In this case it is reducing the injection amount by 23.5%.

First off was checking the injector resistance. This requires removing the injector crash guard.




Now spec is 14.3 Ohms but I believe that's at 20C. However this engine is up to temperature and so the actual values will be different. But I'll get onto that in a bit.

The measured resistance from cylinder one to four was 16.5 Ohms, 16.5 Ohms, 16.7 Ohms and 16.8 Ohms.



Now you might be saying "That's far higher than 14.3 Ohms!"
Well that's correct. The electrical side of an injector is basically a coil of wire. I don't know for sure but I'm pretty sure it'll be copper.

Now for every 1 degree Celsius increase in temperature, copper increases its resistance by 0.393%. What does that mean in practice?

Difference between 16.7 and 14.3 Ohms is 15.5%. 15.5/0.393 = 39.5c increase. I.e. 20c + 39.5c = 59.5c injector temp if correct. Measuring the injectors with an IR guns gets around 60c on them! So that increase is in the right ballpark. (Feel free someone to critique my maths)

However I will still check them from stone cold tomorrow morning before saying for sure. I also listened with a mechanics stethoscope. First time I've listened to injectors on one but they all sounded the same with a regular and consistent clicking to them. I then disconnected each injector in turn. The exhaust note from a injector disconnected between cylinders was the same.

Right now I'm not 100% sure the injectors are at fault here. Even though the resistance values were when hot, they were all pretty consistent.

What next? There really isn't many sensors on the Clio and hilariously you can disconnect the MAP, intake temperature sensor, O2 sensor and it will still run. No warning lights either. I sprayed some carb cleaner about the manifold to check for leaks but there wasn't anywhere that caused a rev change.

Anyway I thought I would check the MAP sensor. This sensor is measuring the pressure drop from ambient. Ambient is about 100kpa. Remember this fact.

Removing the sensor required careful wiggling. I didn't want to snap the end off, so gently does it.


Reading the OBD values with it disconnected gave 101kpa. The weather is nice here today, which explains that extra 1kpa.


Now I hooked up my cheapy Red Box Chinese hand vacuum pump. This measures in mmHG - millimeters of mercury. You don't need to worry too much about that apart from that you can convert it to kpa.
I pumped the handle to suck the air out to -300mmHG


What is 300mmHG? It's pretty much 40kpa


Now remember that ambient is 100kpa. As we are pulling a vacuum of 40kpa you simply do: 100kpa - 40kpa = 60kpa we should read on the sensor.

What do we get?


Bingo!

Let's try a bit more vacuum.


450mmHG gives 60kpa. 100kpa-60kpa=40kpa


What does that give us?


Excellent!

Finally let's go down a bit more. I don't want to go too low as I don't want to damage the diaphragm inside this delicate sensor.
600mmHG is 80kpa.


100kpa-80kpa=20kpa


Even though I'm using a cheap no brand name vacuum gauge and so could question the accuracy of the gauge, I'm pretty happy that it's correct. The values match up with what the MAP sensor is reporting and it would be very coincidental if both were inaccurate by the same amount.

So that begs the question what is wrong. I'll check those injector resistance again in the morning. I could check their spray pattern but given they have been undisturbed for 18+ years, I don't really want to remove them. There is a good chance if I do that the o-rings will be damaged. I don't have any spare fuel resistant o-rings to hand.

I want to check the O2 sensor values. However my laptop battery was flat, so I couldn't plug in my better scan tool. I could drag the oscilloscope out but that's a lot of faff. Especially as the signal lines aren't the easiest to get to on this engine (the sensor is down the back of the engine by the firewall). My suspicion is that it might have gone a bit on the slow side. I don't see any history of it ever being changed either.

There is also the possibility that everything is ok too! It might have done the stutter from something moist from being sat. I.e. condensation around the plugs. Now it's up to temperature that could have evaporated off.

But the fuel trims are on the low side still. Maybe just worn injectors or the O2 sensor. Fuel is about 4 months old, so not super fresh but not that old. I'd thought it would be running with positive fuel trims if it was fuel. I.e. it's having to pump more fuel in to make it richer as it won't burning as well.

I probably shouldn't discount the coil pack or leads either. It's not that old but I don't think either is genuine and so there is very much a chance it's failed again. Plugs are the right ones and were replaced the same time as the coil.

[dome]

You're going into the sort of level of detail here that would make my little brain explode trying to process all the information received.

Have you given it fresh fuel and a good hiding yet? Honestly, it'll either kill or cure it 

[SiC]

11 minutes ago, dome said:

Have you given it fresh fuel and a good hiding yet? Honestly, it'll either kill or cure it 

Gave it a good drive before starting to look at all this. I'd expect bad fuel to be causing high positive fuel trims as the ECU compensates by richen the mixture.

My suspicion is still heavily on the Lambda sensor.

[Split_Pin]

58 minutes ago, dome said:

You're going into the sort of level of detail here that would make my little brain explode trying to process all the information received.

Have you given it fresh fuel and a good hiding yet? Honestly, it'll either kill or cure it 

Same here. Kick it's hole in. It's what they were built for and because it's French it will thrive on it.

[JMotor]

22 hours ago, SiC said:

My suspicion is still heavily on the Lambda sensor.

If a good quality one is available at not daft money. Maybe worth a try? some sensors just go out of their working range instead of outright failing.

My 306 has less fancy stuff on it, none of this variable valve timing trickery....

But it still can be a pain in the hole when it wants to be! 

The joys of french hot hatches! However they are good fun when they do work.

[SiC]

7 minutes ago, JMotor said:

If a good quality one is available at not daft money. Maybe worth a try? some sensors just go out of their working range instead of outright failing.

£85 for a genuine Bosch from ECP. Problem is, it's right down the back of the engine and you know it'll be a right arse to remove. Especially as I don't think it ever has been. Its got an MOT on the 24th, so I might ask the garage then to change it. Also curious to see what the emissions come back like without changing it. 

Injectors came back as 14.7, 14.6, 14.8 and 14.8 Ohms. Spec I think is between 14 and 15 Ohms. Doesn't tell me much about the spray pattern though. However they are ticking evenly when listened to, so unlikely to be gummed up. 

[JMotor]

1 minute ago, SiC said:

Problem is, it's right down the back of the engine and you know it'll be a right arse to remove.

Forgot that! That's right enough.

 

Now remember when a pal of mine had a 172. He de-catted it and changed the exhaust. Even on a ramp it was a PITA to get the downpipe out. 

 

[cobblers]

Very thorough! I would also agree to be suspicious of the lambda sensor over the injectors, however if you do have one weepy injector it will make the overall mixture look rich, causing the ECU to pull fuel overall (is it is) leaning out 3 cylinders to compensate. If the lambda is a total ballache to swap, it might be worth popping the injectors out and testing them for flow, just to see if they all somewhat match - Particularly if these cars are known for injector issues.

 

Perhaps just unplug the lambda for now so it runs open loop and see where that gets you?

[SiC]

3 hours ago, cobblers said:

Perhaps just unplug the lambda for now so it runs open loop and see where that gets you?

I'll give that a try but I'll have to do it when it's cold first. The connector is right next to the sensor, down the back and requiring your arm to pass right by a super hot manifold! It actually doesn't run that bad at the moment. I mean it still has a lumpy idle but they all do. 

[SiC]

I was pondering about the fuel trims when driving this earlier and when I did the usual scan of the gauges, I remembered that the thermostat needs changing as it's gone on the lazy side and must be opening too soon. Checking with the scan tool, for the gauge to be in the middle, it needs to be around 88c+. One little notch below middle seems to be around 70-88c. I forgot that it did but this has been sitting often one notch below middle. 

My current thinking is that it's running cool and these are mapped to run rich when not up to temperature. I'm thinking possibly the base map at the temperatures its currently running at might be really rich. Then the closed loop lambda control causes the fuel trims to lean out the resulting mix from that really rich base map. 

Hence it all could be ok, except that it's just running too much on the cool side and the ECU is counteracting that. I'll speak to the garage when the MOT is done and get them to do the thermostat too. Easy enough for them to do and won't cost me a lot either. I've been ignoring this problem for long enough that I've forgotten about it! Heaters blew toasty warm in all but the coldest days (which would cause it to drop back further), so wasn't high up on the agenda to fix. 

[cobblers]

I'm presuming these run a narrowband o2? I don't think the stat is at fault here, 70-88c is sufficient to get it into closed loop running and closed loop on a narrowband can only aim for 14.7:1 as that's the only AFR that the lambda can meaningfully read.

It'll just run pure open loop until the cold start enrichment is over - it can't try and target any particular AFR, and the fuel trims will be blindly taken into account. From memory, cold start enrichment is usually x% richer for x seconds after start (for manifold wetting etc) and then another parallel enrichment which will taper down up to about 60c coolant temp.

It can only "learn" the fuel trims up to about 60% throttle (when it's actually aiming for 14.7:1) but they will apply the trims throughout the load range.

 

[SiC]

Since my last post I've been driving it around. Fuel trims are still quite low but it seems to be running fine after that brief blip out of storage. 

It's in for an MOT today so the emissions output should let me know if something is amiss. They're also going to do the coolant+thermostat as it doesn't quite get up to temperature at times - especially in the winter with the heater on full. 

I'll be selling it after I get an MOT though unfortunately. In Bristol we are getting a Clean Air Zone. Out of my 3 modern cars (A4, Boxster, Clio), none of them are exempt from the charge. Given a choice of those three cars, the A4 is too useful to get rid of and I prefer the Boxster over the Clio. Also Mrs SiC doesn't like driving the Clio much as she finds the steering heavy. So Clio will be the one that will be going. 

What will I replace it with? Currently thinking maybe a late (because CAZ) Bini R53 Cooper S. All depends if I can find one that's not a turd. Especially at this age now. 

In the meantime I'm waiting with baited breath on the MOT. I know the CV boot on the offside has a very small tear at the base. It's holding on with a tiny bit of rubber but it'll need changing. I've asked the garage to do it either way. 

[SiC]

Clio failed! 😲

CV boot I knew about, coil spring I didn't. Haven't heard from the garage yet so they've either got on and done it (usually they ask me first though) or they're too busy to look at it yet. 

I told them about the CV boot and they needed to do it, so they may just have got on with it anyway as the strut will be loosened off I think on these? So not much more extra work.

[SiC]

Waiting on parts currently. CV boot is now NLA so a generic one had to go on. They got a spring but that took some finding apparently. Top mount needed to be replaced too which they're waiting on. Glad I didn't have to be doing this job! 

Thermostat and coolant in, gets upto temperature fine now. 

Hopefully I'll get it back today, if not I said not to worry, I'll catch a bus back tonight and pick up tomorrow. 

[SiC]

Got the Clio back. Ended up costing £280 for that MOT. One of my most expensive MOT fails I've had for a while.

Spring, top mount, CV boot and then did the thermostat that I supplied. Apparently was a bit of a ball ache of a job and took quite a lot of phoning around to source parts for.

Running like a champ now though. I'll go out for a drive in it a bit and give a good blast around the back lanes.

Emissions were great too and looking at the test time, it probably wasn't at full operating temperature as it was a few hours since I took it in. All which points to everything working properly. I'm putting the funny running to it being sat for 4 months with the power disconnected. I always disconnect the battery when I put it in storage, as the place I put them has many other peoples £100k's worth of car in there too. So I take zero risk as I don't want to be the person with the Clio II that burns that lot down because French electric! Do wonder if it needed just for the adaptations to sort itself out again and maybe everything to exercise through their paces.


Now just need to write an advert up. I don't really want to sell it but needs must.

[Split_Pin]

Glad it's legal for another year again.

At least your garage tried to find parts. The place I told to do one after the Cavalier saga were useless, they didn't even bother trying to find bits for my 172 a few years ago.

 

[Noel Tidybeard]

12 hours ago, SiC said:

I'll be selling it after I get an MOT though unfortunately. In Bristol we are getting a Clean Air Zone. Out of my 3 modern cars (A4, Boxster, Clio), none of them are exempt from the charge. Given a choice of those three cars, the A4 is too useful to get rid of and I prefer the Boxster over the Clio. Also Mrs SiC doesn't like driving the Clio much as she finds the steering heavy. So Clio will be the one that will be going. 

What will I replace it with? Currently thinking maybe a late (because CAZ) Bini R53 Cooper S. All depends if I can find one that's not a turd. Especially at this age now.

remember that civic that got replaced by "clean" modern german? yes that one, the one that is lez compliant!😲

this is mine 1.8ex- Brizzol will be using same as Brum

We'll implement the same scheme as Birmingham so if the checker shows a daily charge for Birmingham, you'll have to pay to drive your vehicle into Bristol’s CAZ. 

Clean Air Zone charge

Results for number plate BV07DPY.

Bath	No Charge	Now	Zone boundary	Bath and North East Somerset Council
Birmingham	No Charge	Now	Zone boundary	Birmingham City Council
Portsmouth	No Charge	Late 2021	Zone boundary	Portsmouth City Council