invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[egg]

£15k for Opperman Stirling

 

[Zelandeth]

Yeah, someone with deep pockets was obviously after a lot of the Invacar kit.  £380 for the reasonably complete looking engine, £190 even for a box full of speedometers and misc switchgear.

I did manage to bag the better looking gearbox for £30 though.  That was the only thing that went for sensible money I saw.  

£2300 for the Velorex and £1100 for the AC Acedes probably being the other two relevant numbers for this thread.

[egg]

10 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

£1100 for the AC Acedes

only two bids. Cheap!

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, GR8 PL8 M8 said:

If I had to guess I'd say that a view is only registered when an image is clicked/tapped on and opened full screen, simply viewing inline doesn't count.

Not an IT expert and also not who you asked, but since the pinned post is locked I figured I'd spitball here.

yeah thats what Im thinking as well! and I can see a lot of images that a very much relevant that people see/want to see, but dont actually click on

for example the Meme I posted just then, you can see it clearly without having to actually view it!

and there lies my probably with nuking what look like to be orphaned files, Are they really orphaned! 

1 hour ago, brummiejon said:

@LightBulbFun I have inboxed you regarding your kind offer to help me with the registration of RDE 346.

thanks

Jon

No problems! now the Server is working properly try sending me them scans/images that failed to uploaded previously  

[LightBulbFun]

58 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

£2300 for the Velorex and £1100 for the AC Acedes probably being the other two relevant numbers for this thread.

 

48 minutes ago, egg said:

only two bids. Cheap!

Yeah its an interesting one given the AC Petite went for £6200!

 

surprised at how cheap the Acedes went for, I know the chap who owns ALB761A The AC Acedes Mk15 on the wrong plates, mentioned he was looking at bidding on both, hopefully he managed to nab the Acedes at least! he has done a great job restoring ALB so im sure it would be in a good home with him!

actually while writing this got an email from him on it, sadly I dont think he managed to grab it as he wanted the Petite first (and still got out bid on that)

so I do wonder who got the Acedes! Hopefully its gone to a good home!

 

also quite surprised at how cheap the the Kei Car and Kei Van went for! I figured being JDM-Ish they would of gone for £LOL, ( same for the Trabant and DAF TBH! they went surprisingly cheap)

did you have a punt at any of those Kei machines @egg? I know you expressed an interest  

[barrett]

Lots of things went quite cheap, I thought. A few things made much more than I was expecting, too, but I guess that's the nature of auctions. I didn't end up buying the Anzani Astra although I was the underbidder. The other person really wanted it and had set up an auto-bid thing which just kept going up, and the thought of having to store it somewhere for the rest of my life made me give up early on. I was also the under-bidder on the Champion saloons, but again I think the other person really wanted them and I chickened out very early. I really wanted the Unicar, but it quickly went over budget, and ditto the Petite, which I thought might go quite cheaply. Didn't even get a bid in on that one. Did managed to get one thing, the nice original Goliath drawing from The Motor, for £25.

The viewing was quite busy and had various people filming for local news stories / youtube etc and loads of the microcar mafia but I think it was mostly sightseers, not serious bidders.

[LightBulbFun]

On 20/10/2022 at 15:25, LightBulbFun said:

well this is very strange! all the dates on GIG's record have been shifted backwards by a day! 

First Registered 1st of October 1980, now 30th September 1980, Last V5 issued 11th of October 2022 and now its 10th of October 2022!

(and AFAIK its still the same V5 as I can check the taxation rates just fine still and that requires the latest 11 digit number)

I almost wonder if this was some sort of data accuracy check , now the record has been made live, they are nailing things down, but it would not explain why even the V5 date went back a day! 

 

I have only ever seen something like this once before and that was with WGU18G the Ford Timelord!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but while writing the above! as a sanity check I did a few other records and they too have shifted dates! even REV's taxation expiry date and V5 date has shifted back (but thankfully they know better then to try and fuck with her registration data, still correctly showing 5th of November 1976!)

note how it says "Tax due 30 September 2023" instead of "1st October 2023" as it did previous 

so I did some further checks!

and curious vehicles which have been taxed a while ago still show the 1st of the next month as their expiry date and their V5's dates are not shifted

but TWC's record which has a more recent V5 date is showing a shifted V5 date, but not a shifted taxation date

so yeah what the actual fuck is going with all this date shifting? has the actual back end data shifted, or is it a front end issue with how the data is decoded?

its properly weird! I have never seen anything like this before!

 

and for those wondering its not just Model 70's either!

been keeping an eye on this weird bug, and it looks like the DVLA have fixed it or rolled back whatever was causing it as all the dates are now back in check, I do still wonder what changed where, if it was a back end or front end issue!

and also GIG has been SORN'ed without issue, so thats good to see  

[egg]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

did you have a punt at any of those Kei machines @egg? I know you expressed an interest  

I've been quite sad today, as life has meant I wasn't in position to bid but there were a few bargains there, I expect to be flipped on ebay or carandclassic shortly.  Wouldn't be surprised if a few end up North with 'microcar world'. 

[egg]

From Facebook 'Trabant - the first to leave but staying very locally with an enthusiastic family who want to keep the village connection - what a lovely surprise!'

At least one car staying in Kent!

[LightBulbFun]

chatting to my Long suffering good friend @Magic, much to his dismay about Routemasters that served Greater Manchester, at 1:20 in the morning as you do  

I went about pulling up a random video to share as an example, when I found this

 

and thought ooh thats good can watch the chod go past while the Routemasters come and go

when at 1:22, Well Hello there!

completely Random, had not seen this video before, when  (again much to the dismay of Mr @Magic)  theres a Model 70 in it  

Looks like UOO182R  (bonus Volvo 240 too) dont have/know of many photos/scenes of Model 70's and Routemasters together so this pleased me quite a bit  

[DVee8]

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, DVee8 said:

thats a Reliant Regal sadly!

still nifty tho  

[RayMK]

5 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

thats a Reliant Regal sadly!

still nifty tho  

Yes.  Regal MK5 or 6 judging by the shape of the lower corner of the side window.  Could be a van, although they were a rare sight.

[egg]

10 hours ago, DVee8 said:

Marvellous photo, on Oxford Street I think?

[DVee8]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Marvellous photo, on Oxford Street I think?

It came from here

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=171507735544745&set=pcb.171649058863946

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

An update on wheel studs.

I am not going to have much workshop time for a while as I am moving house, so I may have to put this project on the back burner. 

I have done some rough but interesting tests.  To summarise, I made a fixture to simulate the hub/brake drum/wheel assembly.  I applied a torque wrench to a wheel nut on a sample stud, in each of the two materials I am using.  I increased the torque gradually until breaking point.

The working loads are going to be very small compared with what an idiot can apply with a breaker bar, and they are distributed between all four studs on the hub, so this is a worst-case scenario.   Not that any of you lot are idiots, naturally, but they walk among us. 

A reasonable torque for a 3/8" UNF stud is roughly 25 to 35 ft/lb, perhaps 40 maximum.  Tightening until it feels right with a normal wheel brace will not even approach this - quite an easy experiment to do, if you have a wheel brace and a torque wrench handy. 

The stronger material is EN16T as used for Zel's sample.  When the torque reached about 100 ft/lb, it was beginning to yield and at 110 ft/lb, it tore the threads out of the hub flange and the stud came out undamaged.

The weaker material is EN8, which is easier to machine.  This began to yield at around 65-70 ft/lb, and after several complete rotations broke at about 75 ft/lb.  The break was at the top of the BSF section, just below the face of the hub flange.  The broken piece could be extracted without much difficulty and the thread in the hub was not damaged.

In neither case was the UNF thread on the stud or nut damaged, and clearly the weak point is the attachment to the hub.  My main concern is that the stud will work loose from the hub in service, and only a long-term test will reveal this.

I should perhaps repeat the test with the stud welded to the hub as original and see the effect of this, because my studs are not failing in the same way as the originals, but it all takes time.

I think that there is an adequate margin of safety with EN8 and if you do something silly with it, you can replace the stud and carry on.  With EN16T, there is a much larger idiot factor, but if you exceed it, you will need a new hub. 

Discuss.... 

 

 

 

 

 

el  

 

The book figure I found and wrote down on the garage wall (though goodness only know where I found it) for Mini steel wheels was 40 foot pounds.  Though even that honestly feels on the tight side for something like this.  They're small wheels and small studs on a small car.  Even using the sort of small wheel brace a Mini would come with I'm hardly going to be going out of my way to get them as tight as possible.

It's not the sort of car where they're going to be left on there untouched for decades at a time - I'll have the wheels off at least a couple of times a year to inspect things and to adjust the free play in the brakes.  

I reckon a good quality modern thread lock on the hub to stud join and we should be absolutely fine.  I'm hoping the work will be finished here this week so I can actually get back into the garage properly and get that sample one installed.  Clean out and degrease, apply thread lock, screw stud into hub, then reassemble everything and leave the thread lock to set fully overnight.  Easy enough to check nothing has come loose after each run out then.

It's worth noting that the weld holding things into the hub was a tiny tack.  I was easily able to extract the stock studs (I didn't know they were welded in at that point) using hand tools and a couple of wheel nuts jammed together to stop them unscrewing.  I think the threads on one were sufficiently mangled that I wound up just winding it out with a pair of vice grips.  Given how solid a hold modern thread lock compounds can give, I reckon they'll do the job just as well.  Just far less likely to wreck threads if you do want to get things apart later.

[Blake's Den]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

An update on wheel studs.

I am not going to have much workshop time for a while as I am moving house, so I may have to put this project on the back burner. 

I have done some rough but interesting tests.  To summarise, I made a fixture to simulate the hub/brake drum/wheel assembly.  I applied a torque wrench to a wheel nut on a sample stud, in each of the two materials I am using.  I increased the torque gradually until breaking point.

The working loads are going to be very small compared with what an idiot can apply with a breaker bar, and they are distributed between all four studs on the hub, so this is a worst-case scenario.   Not that any of you lot are idiots, naturally, but they walk among us. 

A reasonable torque for a 3/8" UNF stud is roughly 25 to 35 ft/lb, perhaps 40 maximum.  Tightening until it feels right with a normal wheel brace will not even approach this - quite an easy experiment to do, if you have a wheel brace and a torque wrench handy. 

The stronger material is EN16T as used for Zel's sample.  When the torque reached about 100 ft/lb, it was beginning to yield and at 110 ft/lb, it tore the threads out of the hub flange and the stud came out undamaged.

The weaker material is EN8, which is easier to machine.  This began to yield at around 65-70 ft/lb, and after several complete rotations broke at about 75 ft/lb.  The break was at the top of the BSF section, just below the face of the hub flange.  The broken piece could be extracted without much difficulty and the thread in the hub was not damaged.

In neither case was the UNF thread on the stud or nut damaged, and clearly the weak point is the attachment to the hub.  My main concern is that the stud will work loose from the hub in service, and only a long-term test will reveal this.

I should perhaps repeat the test with the stud welded to the hub as original and see the effect of this, because my studs are not failing in the same way as the originals, but it all takes time.

I think that there is an adequate margin of safety with EN8 and if you do something silly with it, you can replace the stud and carry on.  With EN16T, there is a much larger idiot factor, but if you exceed it, you will need a new hub. 

Discuss.... 

 

 

 

 

 

el  

 

EN8 seems the way to go in my opinion due to its machinability.

Question - you say that your testing doesn't consider the studs welded to the hub. Assuming it's a good weld then surely this would increase the torsional shear on the stud?

I would be concerned about getting good welds on an old hub. A good stud lock compound if applied correctly will be pretty solid, I'm guessing that the stud lock quality wasn't as advanced in the 60's / 70's.

[LightBulbFun]

Twas just doing my regular DVLA housekeeping when I noticed JHJ548N is SORN! 

  

and you may think whats the significance of this you ask?

well JHJ548N, is a Private Invacar Model 70, the only other private Invacar Model 70 aside from REV that was thought to MAYBE survive, (until the Private US Car showed up recently)

and with JHJ548N it had sadly never been confirmed what became of it, the last picture stuart has of it is from the 1990's and until recently it was tax due 2008 with a 2009 V5 and keeper change

so I have always liked to have thought that given it made it to 2008-2009 that by that point it would of been recognised as something special and saved rather then scrapped (the first Ministry Invacar Model 70 was officially returned to the road by the end of 2007 for example, MHJ22P)

but I have never been able to confirm its existence or whereabouts sadly, so to see it suddenly gain a SORN is quite exciting, and hopefully is some proof the cars existence still!

rather then the DVLA suddenly waking up and sending a nastygram to someone just holding a V5 for an untaxed car and nothing more! and someone panicking and just SORNing it despite not actually having the car anymore!

 

I have wondered if JHJ548N was this Unknown Indian Model 70, since the keeper change in 09 lines up somewhat with these photos from 2010!

On 26/06/2021 at 20:19, LightBulbFun said:

and the second lot of pictures I came across is of a (I think Invacar) Model 70 in India, I knew about this one, but had very little in the way of details and no pictures, well now I have a few pictures but still not many details

I do wonder if this one is JHJ548N which is the only other potentially surviving Private Invacar Model 70 I know of, but which sadly fell off the radar so to speak in 2008-2009 (its another machine I have no pictures of sadly, but the features of this Model 70 match with what JHJ548N would have had, ie a Mark B on 12 inch wheels etc )

its interesting how various people  make do and mend with what they have on hand with regards to replacing the rear lights 

its also interesting to see its got another gauge on the dash board of some kind I wonder which it is

sadly I dont know the current status of the machine, I think it was last for sale in 2010 in Karnataka India, but what happen to it after then I dont know sadly

but im still happy to finally have found pictures of it  

or perhaps JHJ548N is this Model 70, in a suspiciously modern looking photograph! but again never been able to concretely confirm anything

On 10/01/2022 at 12:16, LightBulbFun said:

otherwise I did find this interesting picture! I sadly cant find anything on it, but its interesting because it looks like it was taken sometime this side of the year 2000!

its also worth noting, that the registration plate looks to start with JHJ54, so its clearly an Invacar Model 70 part of the JHJ514N-JHJ613N block

and I have to wonder is it JHJ548N? the significance of that is apart from REV, JHJ548N is the only other private Invacar Model 70 I know of that may still survive somewhere, but I have never been able to get many details on it and confirm what happened to it  stuart only knows of a 1990's photograph of it in a book somewhere (and had no idea it was a private car until I pulled up its chassis number! it was just used in the book, about AC cars, as an example of an "AC Invacar")

however it was last taxed in 2008 and had a keeper change in 2009, so id like to think its still out there somewhere, but I cant find any details on it, but I do wonder given the modern look of the photo above, is it of JHJ548N from the mid to late 2000's?

but that aside, heres something to test if you have been paying attention to this thread and know your Model 70's! but there is something wrong about the Model 70 in question in the picture! something that does not add up, can anyone spot whats up?  

 

 

[AdgeCutler]

I have finally been able to collect the new door skin to my drawing . Note to anyone following that drawing, the angle of the leading and trailing edge was rectified from 13 to 12 degrees (( Can a computer wiz update this on the copy within this thread?)) after a test piece was offered to the body. 

[Mrs6C]

44 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

I have finally been able to collect the new door skin to my drawing . Note to anyone following that drawing, the angle of the leading and trailing edge was rectified from 13 to 12 degrees (( Can a computer wiz update this on the copy within this thread?)) after a test piece was offered to the body.

That is a thing of beauty! So is Brian, of course...

[LightBulbFun]

58 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

I have finally been able to collect the new door skin to my drawing . Note to anyone following that drawing, the angle of the leading and trailing edge was rectified from 13 to 12 degrees (( Can a computer wiz update this on the copy within this thread?)) after a test piece was offered to the body. 

Awesome to see a new door for Brian starting to take shape! the door is pretty much the last major component left right?  

I noticed the skin does not yet have its curves  in place is that done by an internal door frame or is it something you will have to put in place yourself?

[AdgeCutler]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

Awesome to see a new door for Brian starting to take shape! the door is pretty much the last major component left right?  

I noticed the skin does not yet have its curves  in place is that done by an internal door frame or is it something you will have to put in place yourself?

Yes, once I have the end plate work will commence with the welding of the door, window frames and the tailpipe.

The leading edge has an end plate which you will see in the earlier posted drawings this has the curved outer edge and the skin is brazed to it, the trailing edge is tubular and the skin is rolled partially around this and again brazed. The skin is of light sheet and will pull over these curves with ease and then tacked as progress is made along the edges.

 

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

That is a thing of beauty! So is Brian, of course...

It does look to have worked out well and a second will hopefully arrive in due course.

[JJ0063]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/carsyoudontseeanymore/permalink/3506404189681121/
 

Little video for the wank bank @LightBulbFun!

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, JJ0063 said:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/carsyoudontseeanymore/permalink/3506404189681121/
 

Little video for the wank bank @LightBulbFun!

once again like the Sainsbury thing, Way ahead of you there

 

On 03/10/2022 at 22:18, LightBulbFun said:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/109418819125/posts/10162265619069126/

this was pretty awesome to see! "ALB761A" or Alba as its known by its owner , is on the move! the first Model 67 to join the very exclusive ranks of road worthy Villiers machine! and its first time I Have ever seen a surviving Model 67 move under its own power  

Goodwood themselves even tweeted about it!

https://twitter.com/GoodwoodRRC/status/1576515259476623360

but as is sadly typical they got most of their facts wrong! obviously as is well known on here by now, Invacar had nothing to do with AC at all (not until the Mk12E/Model 70 at least) and I am curious where they pulled the date of 1960 from! AC Started supplying the AC All weather Tricycle Model 43 en-mass to the Ministry 10 years earlier then that in 1950!

 

[LightBulbFun]

Today marks REV's 46th Birthday  

sadly I dont have any current photos for celebration! but hopefully @red5 can give her a pat on the nose or something! LOL  

 

 

however speaking of Model 70's in general continuing on from JHJ548N above, I noticed VPF441M is also SORN all of a sudden 

and this one is really curious because, AFAIK the person who the last V5 was issued too, has been dead for a fair while! previously it was tax due in 2003 or 2004 there abouts

(the Car is owned by Simon of the ICR but he does not yet have the V5 for it, apparently the daughter of the deceased did still have the V5 knocking around somewhere, but I dont know if it ever made its way to Simon)

 

so the fact its suddenly SORN is and along with JHJ548N being Suddenly SORN is very curious indeed!

 

I almost wonder if both of these vehicles where SORN'ed in the past, and had their SORN lapse, and now the DVLA are suddenly SORNing vehicles who's SORN was allowed to lapse? (because remember that SORN was not always continuous! it was something you had to renew every year like road tax)

 

if anyone has an example of a vehicle that they know they let the SORN lapse on and its just been sitting as is since then it would be interesting to see what it shows up as today!

[Mrs6C]

Happy Birthday REV!!!

[AdgeCutler]

Happy birthday to REV. 
Both Brian’s lower window channels have now been formed and cut to suit and so I turned my attention to the uprights in a free moment this afternoon. The bottom of each is pretty well rotted away and so the first was cut off entirely and a piece of the newly formed channel welded on. Another small step forward. There is small discrepancy near the weld but a little work with the file should rectify that.

[AdgeCutler]

Both window frames now restored. Hopefully a day of welding will be possible soon.

[Mrs6C]

15 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Both window frames now restored. Hopefully a day of welding will be possible soon.

That's fantastic work and great attention to detail, as always. Well done!

[quicksilver]

This just turned up  on Flickr

Chorlton Street coach station, Manchester, 10 November 1984. A rather run-down Plaxton Elite-bodied Leopard but what's that behind it? Sadly we can't see anything of the reg of the Model 70.