invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Dobloseven]

  On 13/10/2024 at 07:20, Christine said:

Slim chance ,  as they were involved in so many accidents , even then , when the roads were so much quieter ..

 

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But surely they'd just replace a damaged one with another that'd been taken out of service.Or parts from one used to rebuild another.Seem to remember the service place near Leicester having a yard full of them in various states.Would think they'd be relatively easy to repair after even a major accident,so long as parts were available,

[Christine]

Well the users didn't have to think about  losing  any N.C.B.  as they had FREE  insurance , so they just smashed in to things  .. and then claimed  compo  for whiplash  ! Bastards ! Luckily , todays insurers , don't realise just how lethal these things really  are ,  therefore  ,cheap to insure .. Until there's an accident . However , drivers today , are fully trained , have passed a test , and have lots of experience .

Mostly..

[Christine]

  On 13/10/2024 at 08:22, Dobloseven said:

But surely they'd just replace a damaged one with another that'd been taken out of service.Or parts from one used to rebuild another.Seem to remember the service place near Leicester having a yard full of them in various states.Would think they'd be relatively easy to repair after even a major accident,so long as parts were available,

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That's not a technical question , so I guess Dan would know, and be allowed to answer ?

[wuvvum]

Page 440.

 

(Whoops, sorry, wrong thread.)

[chadders]

Me too:

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 06:43, Dobloseven said:

So a Model 70 could conceivably been over 25 years old when it was taken out of service?

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indeed, in-fact one of the first 20 User Trial Model 70's of 1970, was one of the final Model 70's still in service it would of been 33 years old when it was withdrawn from service, and lets not forget that there where still a very small gaggle of Villiers and Electric Machines still pottering about, including 1 Stanley Argson! UPA224, was the very last Stanley Argson in Ministry Service, it would of been just a few months short of 50 years old, not bad going eh  and JPE789C was the last Villers machine in Ministry Service

  On 13/10/2024 at 07:20, Christine said:

Slim chance ,  as they were involved in so many accidents , even then , when the roads were so much quieter ..

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its only fair that one posts the actual statical numbers involved, instead of just somewhat sensationalist magazine articles!  

the one that I find most impressive out of these, is the "Theft" number, the fact that 10 Villiers machines where somehow stolen! have you seen the Control scheme of a Villiers machine? not exactly what I would call intuitive to the common thief! so Im impressed they managed to figure it out and get away with the machine! 

  On 13/10/2024 at 08:22, Dobloseven said:

But surely they'd just replace a damaged one with another that'd been taken out of service.Or parts from one used to rebuild another.Seem to remember the service place near Leicester having a yard full of them in various states.Would think they'd be relatively easy to repair after even a major accident,so long as parts were available,

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indeed the Ministry had their big Heywood stores where they kept a couple thousand machines in reserve and many many spare parts to support the whole operation, so if something happened to your Invalid vehicle the Ministry would quickly supply you with another, Approved repairers and ALAC's (Artificial Limb and Appliance centres) also kept stock of spare machines and courtesy machines (a machine you would get given if yours was in for a major job, same as any garage as a courtesy car for example  )

heres some photos of Heywood from the 1970's

and some later from the 1990's this was Julian during his visit to the Heywood stores, to arrange the saving of many Villiers machines to museums and collections the such like

so while we might or might not have had a strategic steam reserve, we certainly without a doubt did have a large Strategic Invacar reserve right until the early 2000's  they even had a special sticker and all!  

[lesapandre]

The theft might have included vandalism - it could therefore possibly be a global figure - possibly joyriders too?

Interesting that once British Leyland was nationalised in 1975 and was state owned there was no attempt to fold the two companies together to produce an effective successor. Maybe there was talks?

(But having followed the Post Office Inquiry in detail - and even last weeks sessions - I would think that any prospect of any state sponsored organisation being run effectively is nil 😂)

 

[Christine]

Can you scan the rest of the page Dez ? It looks like very  awesome statistics ! 

 

[Dobloseven]

  On 13/10/2024 at 13:21, LightBulbFun said:

indeed, in-fact one of the first 20 User Trial Model 70's of 1970, was one of the final Model 70's still in service it would of been 33 years old when it was withdrawn from service, and lets not forget that there where still a very small gaggle of Villiers and Electric Machines still pottering about, including 1 Stanley Argson! UPA224, was the very last Stanley Argson in Ministry Service, it would of been just a few months short of 50 years old, not bad going eh  and JPE789C was the last Villers machine in Ministry Service

its only fair that one posts the actual statical numbers involved, instead of just somewhat sensationalist magazine articles!  

the one that I find most impressive out of these, is the "Theft" number, the fact that 10 Villiers machines where somehow stolen! have you seen the Control scheme of a Villiers machine? not exactly what I would call intuitive to the common thief! so Im impressed they managed to figure it out and get away with the machine! 

indeed the Ministry had their big Heywood stores where they kept a couple thousand machines in reserve and many many spare parts to support the whole operation, so if something happened to your Invalid vehicle the Ministry would quickly supply you with another, Approved repairers and ALAC's (Artificial Limb and Appliance centres) also kept stock of spare machines and courtesy machines (a machine you would get given if yours was in for a major job, same as any garage as a courtesy car for example  )

heres some photos of Heywood from the 1970's

and some later from the 1990's this was Julian during his visit to the Heywood stores, to arrange the saving of many Villiers machines to museums and collections the such like

so while we might or might not have had a strategic steam reserve, we certainly without a doubt did have a large Strategic Invacar reserve right until the early 2000's  they even had a special sticker and all!  

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Now this is the sort of information and discussion that makes this thread so fascinating,to me at least.I'd be interested to know the locations of the "approved repairers".Were the users given a list of places to go to,or contact,if the worst came to the worst?After all,they wouldn't be able to Google "Invacar repairs"on their smartphones!Was "free AA or RAC membership" included,perhaps?

[Christine]

The"  theft " of villiers ones might well have been invalids wanting an upgrade to a new fast 70  one ...       " oh it's been stolen "

[Dobloseven]

  On 13/10/2024 at 15:21, Christine said:

The"  theft " of villiers ones might well have been invalids wanting an upgrade to a fast 70  one

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Now,now!

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 15:19, Dobloseven said:

Now this is the sort of information and discussion that makes this thread so fascinating,to me at least.I'd be interested to know the locations of the "approved repairers".Were the users given a list of places to go to,or contact,if the worst came to the worst?After all,they wouldn't be able to Google "Invacar repairs"on their smartphones!Was "free AA or RAC membership" included,perhaps?

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Users where indeed given a briefing of sorts, who their assigned repairer was etc and a red booklet of do's and dont's and how to go about things, what do if you have an accident, or want to go abroad with your vehicle etc. free roadside recovery/breakdown assistance was included with the scheme  

and even before Motor-Rail was a thing, there was a special concession with British Rail and the Ministry that for a nominal fee, you could travel with your Invalid Car by rail, if say you wanted to go from London to Edinburgh, rather then drive there, you could go by rail and have your car transported up to meet you at your destination  

[Matty]

  On 13/10/2024 at 13:21, LightBulbFun said:

indeed, in-fact one of the first 20 User Trial Model 70's of 1970, was one of the final Model 70's still in service it would of been 33 years old when it was withdrawn from service, and lets not forget that there where still a very small gaggle of Villiers and Electric Machines still pottering about, including 1 Stanley Argson! UPA224, was the very last Stanley Argson in Ministry Service, it would of been just a few months short of 50 years old, not bad going eh  and JPE789C was the last Villers machine in Ministry Service

its only fair that one posts the actual statical numbers involved, instead of just somewhat sensationalist magazine articles!  

the one that I find most impressive out of these, is the "Theft" number, the fact that 10 Villiers machines where somehow stolen! have you seen the Control scheme of a Villiers machine? not exactly what I would call intuitive to the common thief! so Im impressed they managed to figure it out and get away with the machine! 

indeed the Ministry had their big Heywood stores where they kept a couple thousand machines in reserve and many many spare parts to support the whole operation, so if something happened to your Invalid vehicle the Ministry would quickly supply you with another, Approved repairers and ALAC's (Artificial Limb and Appliance centres) also kept stock of spare machines and courtesy machines (a machine you would get given if yours was in for a major job, same as any garage as a courtesy car for example  )

heres some photos of Heywood from the 1970's

and some later from the 1990's this was Julian during his visit to the Heywood stores, to arrange the saving of many Villiers machines to museums and collections the such like

so while we might or might not have had a strategic steam reserve, we certainly without a doubt did have a large Strategic Invacar reserve right until the early 2000's  they even had a special sticker and all!  

Expand  

Heywood as in the one next door to me? Heywood Lancs? Bloody hell, small world. Never knew that.

[wuvvum]

The 92 instances of Model 70s being blown over is a slightly disquieting statistic...

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 15:49, Matty said:

Heywood as in the one next door to me? Heywood Lancs? Bloody hell, small world. Never knew that.

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Aye that one, I think!  an excerpt from the DHSS List of Spare parts for Invalid Three-Wheelers

  Quote

Parts are obtainable from Department of Health and Social Security Store, No 2 Site, Manchester Road, Heywood OL10 2PZ using indent forms MRS 112 or 625.

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I believe the site itself was only fairly recently sold on, (although its use as the main Invalid Vehicle store ended in 2004)

[Snake Charmer]

  On 13/10/2024 at 15:55, wuvvum said:

The 92 instances of Model 70s being blown over is a slightly disquieting statistic...

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I wonder if the Red Book has a notation under parking (probably paragraph 2 sub section 8 )  "please affix the supplied ground anchor during periods of high wind"? 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 16:06, Snake Charmer said:

I wonder if the Red Book has a notation under parking (probably paragraph 2 sub section 8 )  "please affix the supplied ground anchor during periods of high wind"? 

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no thats mentioned in the Forward of later versions of the Yellow Model 70 Automatic Invalid Three-Wheeler Driver's Handbook

see this link for the rest of the pages  

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/177/#comment-2220849

 

[lesapandre]

  On 13/10/2024 at 15:45, LightBulbFun said:

Users where indeed given a briefing of sorts, who their assigned repairer was etc and a red booklet of do's and dont's and how to go about things, what do if you have an accident, or want to go abroad with your vehicle etc. free roadside recovery/breakdown assistance was included with the scheme  

and even before Motor-Rail was a thing, there was a special concession with British Rail and the Ministry that for a nominal fee, you could travel with your Invalid Car by rail, if say you wanted to go from London to Edinburgh, rather then drive there, you could go by rail and have your car transported up to meet you at your destination  

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Fascinating - I wonder how many went into Europe on their hols or for business? Easy to get over on a roro ferry or even in a hovercraft.

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 16:12, lesapandre said:

Fascinating - I wonder how many went into Europe?

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theres a picture of a Model 70 in the Heywood stores with an "NL" sticker in the back window, and I have seen a fair few with GB stickers on the back!

and even on the IMCDB a Model 57 shows up in the background of a French TV show "Les enquêtes du commissaire Maigret" 

https://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_96196-AC-Invacar-Type-57-1964.html

 

[Cavcraft]

  On 13/10/2024 at 13:21, LightBulbFun said:

indeed, in-fact one of the first 20 User Trial Model 70's of 1970, was one of the final Model 70's still in service it would of been 33 years old when it was withdrawn from service, and lets not forget that there where still a very small gaggle of Villiers and Electric Machines still pottering about, including 1 Stanley Argson! UPA224, was the very last Stanley Argson in Ministry Service, it would of been just a few months short of 50 years old, not bad going eh  and JPE789C was the last Villers machine in Ministry Service

its only fair that one posts the actual statical numbers involved, instead of just somewhat sensationalist magazine articles!  

the one that I find most impressive out of these, is the "Theft" number, the fact that 10 Villiers machines where somehow stolen! have you seen the Control scheme of a Villiers machine? not exactly what I would call intuitive to the common thief! so Im impressed they managed to figure it out and get away with the machine! 

indeed the Ministry had their big Heywood stores where they kept a couple thousand machines in reserve and many many spare parts to support the whole operation, so if something happened to your Invalid vehicle the Ministry would quickly supply you with another, Approved repairers and ALAC's (Artificial Limb and Appliance centres) also kept stock of spare machines and courtesy machines (a machine you would get given if yours was in for a major job, same as any garage as a courtesy car for example  )

heres some photos of Heywood from the 1970's

and some later from the 1990's this was Julian during his visit to the Heywood stores, to arrange the saving of many Villiers machines to museums and collections the such like

so while we might or might not have had a strategic steam reserve, we certainly without a doubt did have a large Strategic Invacar reserve right until the early 2000's  they even had a special sticker and all!  

 

Expand  

Did they all (from that photo) get binned off? GPU133H (I didn't check the others) is still showing on DVLA, though it's been off the road since 1983.

[Missy Charm]

  On 13/10/2024 at 15:55, wuvvum said:

The 92 instances of Model 70s being blown over is a slightly disquieting statistic...

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Not really.  You could get a cheap respray on most street corners back in the seventies...  

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 16:56, Cavcraft said:

Did they all (from that photo) get binned off? GPU133H (I didn't check the others) is still showing on DVLA, though it's been off the road since 1983.

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GPU133H is not known to survive sadly, but KWC896J and FPD167B where donated to the Combe Martin Motorcycle museum and do still survive out there now in private collections  

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/193/#comment-2271511

 

[plasticvandan]

The pictures of Julian,and that particular period of mid to late 90s is particularly fascinating,up until that point I don't think any outsiders had really had any access/knowledge of the inside of there and had been storing all this stuff since the scheme ended in the 70s. 

[Christine]

All the mechanics ran Minis  , as   10" tyres   fitted  in oversize lunchboxes..

 

  Now thats  440 ..

[HMC]

  On 13/10/2024 at 07:20, Christine said:

Slim chance ,  as they were involved in so many accidents , even then , when the roads were so much quieter ..

 

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Wow thats about 25% - astonishing. 

[Christine]

Would an invalid carriage driver  have to then take a  proper driving exam /  test  ,if they gave up their trike for a proper real car in 1974    ?  Which,  surely would be the main reason they wouldn't give up the trike ..!   My old headmaster drove a reliant regal , well several , as he crashed them regularly ,  as he didn't have a car licence ,just a bike one from 1950s ..and couldn't really drive 

 

 

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 13/10/2024 at 18:25, Christine said:

Would an invalid carriage driver  have to then take a  proper driving exam /  test  ,if they gave up their trike for a proper real car in 1974    ?  Which,  surely would be the main reason they wouldn't give up the trike ..!   My old headmaster drove a reliant regal , well several , as he crashed them regularly ,  as he didn't have a car licence ,just a bike one from 1950s ..and couldn't really drive 

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they indeed would of needed to take another driving test to add the Motor car entitlement to their licence, but I dont think it was seen as a serious obstacle either, free driving lessons and tuition was provided for those switching to a regular adapted car just as it is provided today  

but you do raise a point that is one I have often thought about, how many of the accidents listed in statistics where down to driver error or the such like, rather then a fault of the vehicle itself, for example its no secret that if you wanted a hot hatch back in the day a Peugeot 205 GTI or such, you paid more for insurance because they got into accidents more, but it was not down to any fault of the 205 GTI itself, but mostly down to the people who drove them fast and crashed em, and likewise the Giffer Dented Honda Jazz or Rover something-or-other.

not saying that All Invacar drivers where bad drivers back in the day, but its certainly something worth considering that I dont see mentioned much! and likewise certainly I am sure we are all aware of how many people who hold full car driving licences and probably should not be on the road!

[Christine]

Just been reading this https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1974/feb/05/disabled-drivers-vehicles

[Christine]

  On 13/10/2024 at 18:49, LightBulbFun said:

they indeed would of needed to take another driving test to add the Motor car entitlement to their licence, but I dont think it was seen as a serious obstacle either, free driving lessons and tuition was provided for those switching to a regular adapted car just as it is provided today  

but you do raise a point that is one I have often thought about, how many of the accidents listed in statistics where down to driver error or the such like, rather then a fault of the vehicle itself, for example its no secret that if you wanted a hot hatch back in the day a Peugeot 205 GTI or such, you paid more for insurance because they got into accidents more, but it was not down to any fault of the 205 GTI itself, but mostly down to the people who drove them fast and crashed em, and likewise the Giffer Dented Honda Jazz or Rover something-or-other.

not saying that All Invacar drivers where bad drivers back in the day, but its certainly something worth considering that I dont see mentioned much! and likewise certainly I am sure we are all aware of how many people who hold full car driving licences and probably should not be on the road!

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Not sure about not being a serious obstacle in taking a test ..I mean,  you're young , and its easier to learn when you're young , and it took 120 hours of lessons for you to pass ,   x   that by  20,000 ?  older trike users  at the time..

Perhaps the cost of that to the government  slowed up the  discontinuation too

[Snake Charmer]

  On 13/10/2024 at 17:52, Christine said:

Now thats  440 ..

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Ministry blue 413. 😘