What is wrong with design Engineers ?

[Junkman]

What did you actually do?

 

Three years of learning how to count beans, how to be the primary target of middle management bullying

and how to shop for Leberkässemmeln for the entire department at a nearby* butcher's.

[cros]

Rockerbox back on and no longer leaking. Still on a positive note, I had the front hubs off, brakes are an impressive size for a 1956 car. Rover probably can't take credit for this as I believe they had a long look at the Studebaker Commander before designing the P4.

[twosmoke300]

Every now and again you come across a nice touch . Like alternators that have one side of the mounts slotted so you don’t need to ( or can’t) take the bolt all the way out .

 

My favourite bad bit of design is the mk6 transit rear brakes where the adjuster inspection hole is nowhere bloody near the adjuster .

[Mally]

 

My favourite bad bit of design is the mk6 transit rear brakes where the adjuster inspection hole is nowhere bloody near the adjuster .

 

I never knew there was an inspection hole, just click them round with a screwdriver until they are almost too big and hammer the drum on!

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Three years of learning how to count beans, how to be the primary target of middle management bullying

and how to shop for Leberkässemmeln for the entire department at a nearby* butcher's.

 

 

Aaah. BMW.

[New POD]

I have raised an Engineering Change request in an aerospace company today, which will probably need the agreement of Airbus, and take ten years to end up on a drawing change.

Basically a potential of laser marking equipment said "Of the 76 variants, all but one are marked centrally. If you could move the marking of that special, we could reduce the price by £6K"

It a 2D datamatix with human readable text with part number, and serial number of a stainless part.

 

It has no functional reason to be exactly the way it's drawn, and some of the varients have a tolerance on position of +/-25 mm (I kid you not - it's that unimportant) but this one has a tolerance of =/- 5mm although the laser is accurate to erm .1 mm or less.

 

I am going to have a sweep stake to guess the time frame to implementation. I reckon a year.

[New POD]

I used to know a design engineer. He designed tact* switches for Lucas Automotive. I have no idea what was wrong with him though. (Apart from a really high forehead and hair that looked like a hat.)

 

* Whatever they are/were.

No idea. But feel was always an issue.

[SiC]

I have raised an Engineering Change request in an aerospace company today, which will probably need the agreement of Airbus, and take ten years to end up on a drawing change.

 

I've been told by an Airbus employee that it usually takes 4 to 6 weeks to get a PO accepted - even if it's only a hundred quid or so.

[Junkman]

Aaah. BMW.

 

Yes, and exactly at the time when they - and every other car maker at that - decided do stop making cars from 1986 onwards.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Yes, and exactly at the time when they - and every other car maker at that - decided do stop making cars from 1986 onwards.

 

 

 

They made cars a bit later than that. I'd say 1998 was the year they stopped. The E46, and snap fit plastic coolant components was the end. The E32 and E34 were fine cars, far better than any three pointed scrap of that era.

[Asimo]

Important to remember that cars are presently just bait to get customers for finance houses and

that is what they are primarily designed to do. Secondly they are designed to be cheap to produce.

 

Maintenance and longevity will be an afterthought at best.

[twosmoke300]

Nail / head interface right there.

[somewhatfoolish]

Even things like ships which have lots of bits, you have lots of space and it's the last bit which is often a killer.

 

As I spend an inordinate amount of time in engine rooms swearing about the fatherless piece of bee shit that designed them; most ships appear designed by taking a general arrangement drawing and firing some birdshot at it with a sawnoff from about 20 yards away, then placing randomly chosen machinery at each pellet strike. Pipe runs created by a basket of kittens and an infinite quantity of balls of wool is a particular favourite*.

[Junkman]

They made cars a bit later than that.

 

Nonsense.

[Junkman]

You know what?

 

I suggest to relabel the CEOs of the car makers left in this world into CBOs.

 

Chief Bullshit Officers.

 

Because I can identify anything those dinglebrained morons have to say as prime cut bullshit.

 

Try me.

[TataBobu]

My absolute favorite was the one for the launch of second generation Dacia Logan: "We worked on perceived quality". And the sales went higher than before.

[Talbot]

I am going to have a sweep stake to guess the time frame to implementation. I reckon a year.

That is AGONY!

 

I proposed a change on one of our skids.. A method of securing one of the valves in position. Drew the component up that morning, had the fabricators laser cut / fold / weld one up that afternoon, and by next day lunchtime the bracket was fitted. Total time between thoughts of "wouldn't it be nice if..." and "there it is fitted" was approx. 24h.

 

Unfortunately, as a 10-men-in-a-shed company we could do that kinda thing. We got bought out a few years back by a company who has no idea how to run us, and we're heading down the road of 26 people needed to approve a change, drawings done overseas and have to be sent back and forth 18 times before they are correct and having to use approved suppliers only, with parts bought through purchasing.

 

I need a new job.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Nonsense.

 

 

 

Makes no sense.

 

1986 525e - good.

1987 525e - nfg.

1988 525e - efw.

 

Cars fall into two groups.

 

Stuff that was well made and designed to be fixed easily.

Shit that wasn't.

 

N52 straight six from 2005. Alloy head, steel cam and a steel oil sealing ring.

 

That runs directly in the alloy cam carrier.

 

That is integral with the head.

 

So the head is scrap when it wears a groove in the alloy and loses oil pressure.

 

Who in the name of Christing fuck designed that? It's not so much these idiot designs, it's the fact that they never seem to learn. Design engineers must, by law, spend three years in a main dealer workshop.

[Asimo]

 

Who in the name of Christing fuck designed that? It's not so much these idiot designs, it's the fact that they never seem to learn. Design engineers must, by law, spend three years in a main dealer workshop.

Someone who has been tasked to reduce the camshaft assembly parts count by three items, the assembly time by ten seconds and the machining costs by 47 cents.

 

They will have spent days solid-modelling, dynamic modelling oil flow, cost and work flow analysing and producing vast quantities of virtual data for virtual managers to make virtual decisions about.

 

Some poor sod of an oily bod will have put his job on the line and said "that's a shit idea" and been overuled.

 

In the best short-term interests of the shareholders.

[Lacquer Peel]

A lot of people graduate from

>10 year old cars to brand new ones. If a car is shagged at that stage are they likely to buy a new car from the same marque? It's short sighted. My mum was so impressed by a run of old Hondas she bought a new one.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

A lot of people graduate from

>10 year old cars to brand new ones. If a car is shagged at that stage are they likely to buy a new car from the same marque? 

 

 

 

In the case of prestige* Kraut stuff, yes. They can see the hordes of fucked E46's with Ryvita arches, tatty A3's with seized rear wipers and corroded alloys and other VW junk but its about monthly repayments and how it projects an image.

 

Herr Junkmann's theory is right, just the date that's wrong. It all started turning to shit about 20 years ago. Push fit hoses, the Vectra, shit like that.

[Asimo]

The whole car building business is drowning in it's own bullshit.

 

[Talbot]

It all started turning to shit about 20 years ago. Push fit hoses, the Vectra, shit like that.

You assume that the vast majority of the car-buying public give a shit about this sort of thing. They don't. 50/60 years ago, cars were bought on engineering prowess. Well designed suspension, clever designs in engines, Easy access for the home mechanic, etc.etc.

 

But in the 80's and 90's, car manufacturers realised that people who buy cars just do not give a crap about that sort of thing any more. People don't lift the bonnet in a dealership any more. They buy on price, comfort, gadgets, etc.etc. The position of the engine oil drain plug or access to the screenwash bottle is irrelevant. In the early 90's, Mercedes sold over 90% of their cars to people who had never even sat in model they were buying.

 

Which meant that engineers were then forced to drive cost out of the vehicle, be it materials cost, machining, assembly, or just plain removing stuff. Radiators no longer have drain taps. Hoses are connected by quick-clips and installed as an assembly, screenwash bottles are buried behind ever-bigger plastic bumpers etc.etc.etc.etc...

 

... and because these vehicles, that were now hopelessly difficult to work on, continued to sell, manufacturers upped their game. Cheaper plastic engine components, bolts replaced by push-fit plastic clips, and the best cost saving of all.. CANbus. Remove tonnes of cost of copper cabling from a car by replacing it with a data network and cheap processors. Excellent! All that cost gone, and people keep buying it!

 

The best example of this is Citroen: Hydro-pneumatic suspension, turning headlamps, etc.etc. in the 50's and 60's it was revolutionary. Adverts showed the technical benefits of all these things and people wanted it and paid for it. In the 80's and 90's, this was all watered down and despite the cars being still radically different from conventional cars, the uniqueness was played down and Citroen became a pile-em-high and sell-em-cheap marque. Can you imagine any car manufacturer now running an advert which shows the design and Engineering of their suspension? Absolutely no-one would give a crap. Even Citroen have now dropped Hydro-pneumatic, as it just doesn't sell cars. Modern car buyers now care more about whether they can connect their phone to the infortainment system rather than how well the vehicle's suspension is designed.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

...The best example of this is Citroen: Hydro-pneumatic suspension, turning headlamps, etc.etc. in the 50's and 60's it was revolutionary. Adverts showed the technical benefits of all these things and people wanted it and paid for it. In the 80's and 90's, this was all watered down and despite the cars being still radically different from conventional cars, the uniqueness was played down and Citroen became a pile-em-high and sell-em-cheap marque. Can you imagine any car manufacturer now running an advert which shows the design and Engineering of their suspension? Absolutely no-one would give a crap. Even Citroen have now dropped Hydro-pneumatic, as it just doesn't sell cars. Modern car buyers now care more about whether they can connect their phone to the infortainment system rather than how well the vehicle's suspension is designed.

Despite all that progress, all the people wanted was panem et circenses. Pearls before swine.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

You assume that the vast majority of the car-buying public give a shit about this sort of thing. They don't. 

 

 

 

Yep, fully aware of that. That's why prestige* stuff is cost pared to buggery under the skin and why VAG, BMW etc are so wildly profitable. They've found the sweet spot where 'x' (customer expectation) meets 'y' (what's the most we can get away with?).

[alcyonecorporation]

Yes, and exactly at the time when they - and every other car maker at that - decided do stop making cars from 1986 onwards.

 

I HATE TIME IT'S SHIT 

[fraser.innes.3]

Can I just have my fucking ashtrays back please!!

 

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[alcyonecorporation]

Can I just have my fucking ashtrays back please!!

 

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No, because I don't want my second hand car smelling of stale tabs. 

[Cleon-Fonte]

One of my favourite examples of mindnumbingly shit engineering is the current Fiat Panda 4x4, probably the only new car I'd buy (in the unlikely event I had £15,000 lying around) and by all accounts a simple beast by modern standards.

 

 

Except, that is, for the rear brakes. The caliper carrier bolts are wedged right up against the rear beam casting, which means to remove the discs the hub must come off. Removing the hub inevitably means the cheap, fragile wheel bearings are destroyed in the process, thereby mandating that a new hub and bearings must also be fitted whenever the discs are changed.

 

Naturally many people who would otherwise have serviced their brakes themselves now pay somebody to do it instead, which perhaps was the effect Fiat intended (or maybe it was just blind stupidity on the part of Fiat's engineers).

[fraser.innes.3]

No, because I don't want my second hand car smelling of stale tabs.

I have never sold a car! I keep them until they are no longer viable to run, much to my wife's displeasure!

 

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