Swap 1993 Mercedes 190e - MOT Win

[BorniteIdentity]

Sorry to be a miserable git, but the guys mechanical skills were the reason this happened, so how can you trust him to fix it ?

Were they?

 

Perhaps I'm being naive. But to me it looks like the camshaft was worn.

[Pete-M]

I don't think the mechanic is to blame. He took it apart and put it back together and it worked until it went wrong.

 

That was the regular cycle for my 190E. It would drive, break, consume huge amounts of money in order to be fixed and then it would break again shortly afterwards, expensively. Naturally every repair would trigger a chain reaction of new faults, breakdowns and expenses.

 

If I'd chased the mechanic who caused the original fault it would no doubt be someone called Heinrich or Norbert in the Stuttgart area.

[SiC]

 

Either way, I guess it depends on your options. If you take it somewhere else, I'd wager it'd cost more than £50 in labour. I don't believe that most skilled mechanics deliberately set out to bugger a job up - especially one that gets regular, repeat business. If it was something his fault, it was either something he overlooked, or something that he didn't even know about. With so many different types of engines and quirks with each, it must be hard to know all the facts on each. Also they don't have the luxury of time to Google around on jobs.

 

The £50 thing might be either a) he's feels gutted for you + you're a good customer or that he knows that he's at fault, but (like most people) doesn't want to admit it. So more of a symbolic gesture.

 

If you argue strongly with him, you'll have to defend your side and prove that he was at fault. If take him to court, you'll have to not only do that, but also take time off work for appearances, won't happen for a good few weeks, etc. Plus you'd then have to find somewhere else and have to trust them to do it properly too.

[SiC]

I don't think the mechanic is to blame. He took it apart and put it back together and it worked until it went wrong.

 

That was the regular cycle for my 190E. It would drive, break, consume huge amounts of money in order to be fixed and then it would break again shortly afterwards, expensively. Naturally every repair would trigger a chain reaction of new faults, breakdowns and expenses.

 

If I'd chased the mechanic who caused the original fault it would no doubt be someone called Heinrich or Norbert in the Stuttgart area.

But but but, German cars never break and older Mercedes are massively over engineered! Are you saying that is all a lie??!

 

 

[danthecapriman]

Fingers crossed here too.

 

At this point I'd go with the mechanic. 'If' it's something he's done then I'd be inclined to put it down to experience. We all fuck up from time to time, I've done it before. And it sounds like he wants to put it right. There's nothing to be gained by getting nasty and pissing him off.

It might well not be his fault, new parts can be faulty and old stuff can fail once other things start being messed with. The only way to know is to strip it all down and have a look.

 

A worn camshaft wouldn't cause the chain to jump or come off the sprocket. If it's done this on it's own, then either the chain was faulty, the tensioner was at fault, or the sprockets have worn/failed in a way that the chain has been able to slip over the teeth.

Or of course something else has forced the chain off, like a loose part (bolt, nut etc etc) managing to drop down into the chain and lifting it off the sprockets or forcing the chain tension out allowing it to get slack enough to jump.

Or, it's down to someone not putting it together properly. Mistakes do happen.

[Tamworthbay]

But but but, German cars never break and older Mercedes are massively over engineered! Are you saying that is all a lie??!

to be fair they have normally rusted into the ground long before engines give too many issues.

[Pete-M]

But but but, German cars never break and older Mercedes are massively over engineered! Are you saying that is all a lie??!

 

 

Mercedes make some great stuff and some cheap rubbish. The 190E was cheap rubbish designed to compete with the likes of the Volvo 460, Ford Orion and various other bits of 1980s lowest common denominator saloon chod. It's Mercedes' answer to the Morris Ital, a nasty bodge-mobile designed to half-assedly fight the BMW 320i and Cortina Mk5. A car to stick in a brochure and hope nobody buys. A market segment tick box exercise.

 

Mercedes fabled 'quality engineering' doesn't happen low down the range. Never has, the W123 rusted for fun, as did the W124, W126, R107 and W210 etc. Four pot Mercs are always hopeless and if the original buyer didn't tick a lot of boxes they're normally horrible to drive and horrible to be in.

 

They're still the same now. Try a brand new poverty spec C220 and it'll be miserable, cheap inside and not worth the bother but it'll drive well. The 190E never drove well, but not many 80s Mercedes did.

 

I say this as someone who's owned quite a few Mercedes, and who drives a 16 yr old E320 CDI as a daily driver.

[richardmorris]

I thought the 190 was supposed to have almost company with over spending on development?

 

 

Wikipedia says..Mercedes spent over £600 million researching and developing the 190 and subsequently said it was 'massively over-engineered'.[3] The W201-based 190 was introduced in November 1982.

[Pete-M]

I thought the 190 was supposed to have almost company with over spending on development?

 

 

Wikipedia says..Mercedes spent over £600 million researching and developing the 190 and subsequently said it was 'massively over-engineered'.[3] The W201-based 190 was introduced in November 1982.

They got it all very very wrong.

[BorniteIdentity]

Mercedes make some great stuff and some cheap rubbish. The 190E was cheap rubbish designed to compete with the likes of the Volvo 460, Ford Orion and various other bits of 1980s lowest common denominator saloon chod. It's Mercedes' answer to the Morris Ital, a nasty bodge-mobile designed to half-assedly fight the BMW 320i and Cortina Mk5. A car to stick in a brochure and hope nobody buys. A market segment tick box exercise.

 

Mercedes fabled 'quality engineering' doesn't happen low down the range. Never has, the W123 rusted for fun, as did the W124, W126, R107 and W210 etc. Four pot Mercs are always hopeless and if the original buyer didn't tick a lot of boxes they're normally horrible to drive and horrible to be in.

 

They're still the same now. Try a brand new poverty spec C220 and it'll be miserable, cheap inside and not worth the bother but it'll drive well. The 190E never drove well, but not many 80s Mercedes did.

 

I say this as someone who's owned quite a few Mercedes, and who drives a 16 yr old E320 CDI as a daily driver.

Blimey. Glad you like my car. I thought I'd wandered onto Pistonheads for a moment.

 

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to say a 190 never drove well is so ludicrous that it takes all credibility from your argument. When they're good, they're lovely.

 

Still. Whatever.

[richardmorris]

Fair enough:-)

 

I've never driven one, but there are quite a few still around in this part of Surrey.

 

I nearly bought one a few years ago ( low mileage one owner 2.6, but couldn't live with the green seats, carpet or dashboard! The next one that he had for sale was worse- burgundy paint, with matching seats, carpets, door trim and dashboard-it looked like a bloodbath!

 

Most here seem to be white or beige.

[forddeliveryboy]

Mmm. "Drive well". That's pretty subjective. There were some who were convinced an XR3i 'drives superbly'.

[danthecapriman]

A mate of mine had a white 1.8 auto. It wasn't exactly quick but it drove well enough, and seemed nice enough place to sit in for long trips.

I always preferred the Volvo 740 I had at the time, but the Merc was still a nice car. That was until we found lots of rot in the sills and inner wings which is what killed it in the end. The engine was still spot on though.

[Pete-M]

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to say a 190 never drive well is so ludicrous that it takes all credibility from your argument. When they're good, they're lovely.

 

Still. Whatever.

I've obviously never driven a good one. Including the brand new ones I drove in the late 80s and early 90s.

 

They're a car I never rated. I only bought one because it was reasonably cheap and I'd heard people raving about how great they were, but that they took a while to learn to appreciate so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and spent my own money on one. I never did grow to even rate it. It wouldn't work for long enough.

 

I just hope that someone somewhere surfing the Internet might read this and think "Ah, I wasn't sure about the 190E" and avoid buying one instead of making the mistake I did.

 

Meanwhile, enjoy yours.

[Captain Furious]

Damn, that's a pants situation to be in.

 

There was obviously some kind of fairly serious fault when it came back from the head gasket work which doesn't sound like it was ever rectified properly, any idea what the 2nd garage did to improve it?

 

Afraid to say I doubt you'll get very far down the 'legal' route, as mentioned above with the two garages that have worked on it that's gonna be a difficult case to make against one or the other, and it's just likely to get ugly between you and the garage who it sounds as like you otherwise got/get on with.

 

What was their verdict tonight? Best possible outcome is some sort of goodwill gesture, but I'd be seriously considering chalking this one up to experience, move it on as spares and get something else.

[SiC]

If it was me, I've never done an engine swap or rebuild. This would be the type of car (given the age and setup), that should be fairly easy to do one in. So I would do it as a way of learning how to do it. A bit like you said, you can't fuck things up anymore!

 

Having said that, you may be lucky and the engine may turn out fine, once the broken bits have been replaced.

[BorniteIdentity]

If it was me, I've never done an engine swap or rebuild. This would be the type of car (given the age and setup), that should be fairly easy to do one in. So I would do it as a way of learning how to do it. A bit like you said, you can't fuck things up anymore!

 

Having said that, you may be lucky and the engine may turn out fine, once the broken bits have been replaced.

 

I'm really torn as to what to do if it's FUBAR'D.  A 2.3 engine technically drops right in, but I'm not sure where I stand with things like the cat and the fuel injection.  I think that rules out the most commonly available 2.3's which come from the W123.

 

Staying positive that it's not completely wrecked.  If it IS - I guess I'll just have to pull everything off it of value and lick my considerable wounds.

 

If only I'd listened to Pete-M.  All we can hope is fellow consumers read this thread and avoid them like the plague.

[barefoot]

If only I'd listened to Pete-M.  

 

 

Quote thread winner?

[carlo]

Some interesting, if fairly subjective, views on Mercedes here.  I've sort of seen the marque as something to aspire to, a natural progression from my Peugeots.  I see them as comfortable and well engineered, not that I've ever driven one that far.  And yet I've often wondered if there was something they weren't telling us; the road tests seemed to be saying well yes they're excellent, and do this well and that well but... although perhaps all the manic testers were too full of BMW and couldn't see beyond the blue propeller.  I would love to try out a W202/203 C Class but know I couldn't afford any bills if the thing went wrong.

 

As for their relative merits now, well I'm sure if you can fall in love with a Austin Ambassador or Datsun Laurel I don't see why the hell you shouldn't be able to love a Mercedes 190E.  Personally I like any car that's over twenty years old, even a Vauxhall Astra.

[Pete-M]

To be fair, engine swaps are pretty easy if you've got a half decent tool kit and access to an engine hoist. It's just a case of remembering where everything goes and using a bit of logic. The Merc four pot ain't rocket science.

 

Some Sprinters have the 2.3 four pot. Mercedes did a few LPG 2.3s, they go remarkably well

[Pete-M]

Quote thread winner?

There's fuck all chance of that!

[Alexg]

The volume of 190e Mercedes still available on eBay etc compared to anything else from the era suggest they're not complete no-hopers. 

[Guest Hooli]

I've always liked this age of Merc, had a W124 & it was great. But then I thought XR3is were a fun drive too...

[alfetta]

I think the 190E was one of the most reliable cars I owned, next to the MX5. I really never did anything to it for 4 years. and it was the 1.8 which is supposed to be pants. Saabs were usually pretty good too apart my 900 turbo which ate it's headgasket, then gearbox. (not unexpected considering they were made of cheese and only really designed for 100bhp..)

[Pete-M]

A friend of mine had a white 2.0i 190E manual which other than cracking an exhaust manifold never gave him any grief over the four years he had it. It can happen. I suspect the next owner of it bought a grenade of huge proportions...

[twosmoke300]

Been thinking about this - is the bottom crank pulley ok and tight .

Didn't this car have intermitant charging issues ? I have known damped pulleys slip on their rubbers . This may also cause vibrations and cause cam drive failures over time .

[billyboy406v6]

The mechanic broke a Mercedes, that does take a measure of skill I suppose ?

[BorniteIdentity]

Been thinking about this - is the bottom crank pulley ok and tight .

Didn't this car have intermitant charging issues ? I have known damped pulleys slip on their rubbers . This may also cause vibrations and cause cam drive failures over time .

 

It charged fine - but ran like shite when I got the car back.  The timing was way, way out - which was remedied by two different mechanics and a flashlight.  This may have been related to the catastrophe, it also may not have been.

 

I'm gutted.  It's really started to sink in.  Pricing up the bits left me feeling distinctly bilious.  I started pricing up the parts on the car to see if I can get out anywhere NEAR what it owes me.  I reckon it stands me at about £3000 all in, which is fine for such a nice car in GWO.

 

As it is, it's got about £300 of leather interior in it, some nice body panels, few other bits and that's it.

 

Does anyone have a cat I can kick? hard.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

This is such bad news and tremendously unlucky. No one on here seems to be having any luck with Mercedes cars at the moment.

 

BUT, problems and costs aside, it is still a lovely old car which is nice enough that it would be a crime really to break it. Are you dependent on the car as a daily driver? - Or can you park it up while you look for a replacement engine?

 

Will the 2.3 litre unit from the W124 fit? The uplift in power would make the 190 really quite sprightly I imagine - and since W124s rust like a Jag, surely there must be engines out there from cars which have rusted, rather than worn out. Find an engine with 100,000 miles on it and it is less than half way though its service life.

 

It really depends on what is actually wrong with you engine - and how much damage it has suffered, but if it is in any way substantial, I imagine the labour involved in swapping the engine out for a replacement will be much less than fixing your broken one. Changing the engine on a car of this era is not a vast job if you have the right equipment.

 

Please don't rush into breaking the car on a sea of negative emotion. It is so easy to do that - I imagine pretty much everyone here has come close to doing it at times to their car. I certainly have.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

If it were me, that engine would be going in the skip. When a bodger has been in there, it takes a very good mechanic to sort it out. I would be sourcing a good used engine - maybe even buy a complete running shitter with a good motor, do a swap and end up with a pile of spares to keep/use/sell.