Modern suspension is shyte

[Luckythirteen]

I mentioned a few months ago the Instignia Sri hire car that I hated before I got it out of the car park.

 

 

Anyone remember the Peter Sellers ad for the Citroen Visa where they're drive it down the stairs?

 

I was in an Insignia SRi diesel not so long ago: agreed horrendous.

 

Also, The Italian Job. The original one. I bet the Binis in the newer one needed regular strut and wishbone changes.

 

There was the thread on RR recently, about Clio 172 vs Volvo T5. Aside from the 'real world torque' and turbo vs N/A arguments, the thing about the T5 is that it copes with bad roads. I well remember Pa's one getting caned regularly, and it soaked up the worst of the tarmac. I wonder if it was due to the bulk of the thing?

Having said that, a mate of his had a TD5 Defender, tuned and on performance suspension. Wasn't all that bad to ride in, and went everywhere at Mach 2 all the same!

[DS20]

My boss has a newish Fiesta, I think with 14-inch wheels, but the ride is still very, very hard. I particularly enjoy getting back in the DS after a trip in the boss's car - it's like a magic carpet in comparison. Although it does roll a bit more.

[PhilA]

I agree. Jezza has forever been embiggening the capability of the latest modern to get around a flat tarmac track in the least time.

 

And OH NO AMERICAN CARS CAN'T TAKE CORNERS.

 

Sadly, here, you can still buy modern cars that have blemonge for suspension. (You can also buy horrible crashy ones with seats made by the people who make seats for libraries). The crashy ones are usually repurposed European or Japanese designs.

 

America has built cars for its roads. Howling, thumping concrete, potholed asphalt that continues for many miles.

Large, wide, open swathes of land; we think nothing of driving 40+ miles each way just to go get dinner. That's a lot of butt-in-seat time.

 

Somehow people still comment on how comfortable the seats and ride are in my Renault. This is from eighties "sports" suspension and seats! The standard ride was even more forgiving.

 

It does seem to be cyclical. The comfortable ones will come back. Just the same as a brown Dralon sofa went out of vogue, it is scientifically provable to be the most comfortable type of seat ever. See: velour seats in anything big from the seventies. (80's BL equipment qualifies).

 

Give it a few years.

[forddeliveryboy]

I blame Citroën. Even to this day they can engender total squint-eyed, purple-faced and sweaty-palmed anger in the Audi/BMW brigade if you take them (in an old Citroën) and they can't keep up without ragging their uber-motor to its limits between the corners (only to have to do the same again after the next set of bends). It was the same with the many garages who simply couldn't understand the springing system, so they just slagged it off because it made their lives hard. And the intense class-hatred with a lot of English people - posh man turns up in SM/DS (back in the 70s) and garage instantly took a dislike to both man and car. If it was a Lotus, he might've been forgiven for having had his school paid for by his parents.

 

This general attitude towards cars with compliant springs (often foreign, even worse French, as in Renault and Citroën) and the general enthusiasm for proper suspension seems to have died out with those born after 1970. I reckon there's been a generational reaction (like you wouldn't wear clothes like your Dad's) as well as road speeds which have steadily declined for the enthusiastic, apart from a 10 miles blast at 100mph+ because a young man believes it's part of growing up. And an increasingly un-practical generation, who place style over substance and don't know a spigot from a sprocket.

 

More mass makes it easier to spring a car well, so the comment suggesting that to make a lightweight Lotus ride/handle well was easier because of its weight is perhaps a little off the mark. That Lotus cars were so beautifully sprung and damped is partly because of the poor roads round Hethel and because they were prepared to spend money on good design and components. I have to laugh when I see the spring rates on Caterham7s and so on, the original 7 was way softer (blancmange-like many yoofs would say) and on narrow, high tyres yet still out-corner replicas on anything other than an autobahn ausfahrt.

 

I think some manufacturers were so amazed at the results of a stiffish shell, a wheel at each corner and strongly-located suspension arms (when they finally got off their fat arses in the 90s) that they felt they had to make it possible for the least capable drivers to circumnavigate a large roundabout at unsafe (given the traffic) speeds. And it's a lot cheaper to engineer suspension which barely moves. Bung in a load of clever rubber bushes (which will need replacement, so more profit for aftersales) to prevent the thing feeling less comfortable than a Caterham and the job's done. Inexperienced drivers generally associate a lively ride with a fast car, too.

[DS20]

Inexperienced drivers generally associate a lively ride with a fast car, too.

 

I think there's a lot in this. My DS feels slow, chiefly 1) because it is (0-60 eventually), and 2) because it rides like it does, and rolls when cornering. Yet, journey-times, even on trips of a couple of hundred miles, are barely any different to my newer, harder-riding cars.

[cort1977]

I blame all this obsession with nurburgring times and 'potential for track days'. What you want for the track is not what you want for best progress on a bumpy B road. Manufacturers, or at least the marketing types, have lost sight of that in the last few years. Honorable exception might be lotus not that I have driven one.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

BROWN FORUM BINGO

 

Everything modern is wank - check

 

Audi/BMW drivers are c**ts - check

 

All people nowadays are vacuous twats who don't have a clue unlike me/us - check

 

Absurd conspiracy theory from FDB - check

 

HOUSE!!!!

[Richard]

 

 

HOUSE!!!!

 

I think not. Nobody's had a go at the Blue Forum yet.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Hey you're right, false call, I'll sit out for the next round

[They_all_do_that_sir]

So if you had to buy a modern, what is out there post 2000 that still has proper suspension?

 

The Volvo rides really well but I think that's due to weight / small wheels / amazing seats.

 

Ideally I would like something with old school squidgy french seats, proper suspension, a slightly agricultural yet reliable diesel and no mad electronics.

 

So I think I want an XM but they don't make them anymore. Fucksticks

[Richard]

I've heard that the Nurburgring is pretty rough in places, it's probably not much different from a real world road surface.

[dollywobbler]

Citroen C5. It's modern and the ride is incredible. In fact, in my experience, a coil-sprung C5 is better than a C6!

Plenty of other 'moderns are shyte' reasons not to own onen but comfort is fine.

Tesla Model S on 22" rims and performance suspension is a very uncomfortable way to spend over 70 grand. Hideously firm.

[They_all_do_that_sir]

The citroen C5 looks a bit unloved and unfashionable. This instantly adds much appeal where I am concerned. Had previously overlooked these as being not really a citroen, just another euro box.

 

Biggest limitation for me is the need for 3 3 point belts in the back of the car. I think XMs have a lap belt in the middle which instantly drops them

[dollywobbler]

Yup. XM is lap belt only. I have to say that it also has that annoying trend of really being set up as a four-seater. If you have someone in the middle of the back seat, they sit on a raised bit so end up with their head on the ceiling.

[messerschmitt owner]

So if you had to buy a modern, what is out there post 2000 that still has proper suspension?

 

 

My 02 Merc E320cdi with 17in wheels is supremely comfy and has decent suspension and it IS the lowered Avantgarde with sports suspension. I think an Elegance must be even nicer. The 05 Dispatch floats over speed humps, even fully laden.

 

Not all modern cars are shite.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Rover 75 obv

[Lacquer Peel]

The citroen C5 looks a bit unloved and unfashionable. This instantly adds much appeal where I am concerned. Had previously overlooked these as being not really a citroen, just another euro box.

 

Biggest limitation for me is the need for 3 3 point belts in the back of the car. I think XMs have a lap belt in the middle which instantly drops them

Xantia estates have 3x3 point belts in the rear.

[carlo]

There are or were some cars built after 2000 with very good suspensions but you have to actively seek them out as they are presumably unfashionable.  It's the first and most important thing I look for in a car, I can do without fantastic handling but it helps if the car has positive steering.  It's also a matter of expectation; some cars you presume will be awful turn out to be pretty good, hence my appreciation of our new Picanto which I think is very good for the type of car, also my disappointment with a 406 Coupe which was more uncomfortable than expected.

 

It doesn't help that a lot of road testers in magazines are idiots and self-contradictory.  Whatcar said the Picanto, when it came out, had a good and cushioned ride.  You look at its summary in the back now and it has it down as 'Bad Points: Poor ride.'  This is by no means an isolated case, different drivers have different perceptions and the only way is to get in the car and drive it yourself.  I read a road test in Top Gear I think it was, and a car was described as having a 'pert' ride; what the hell does that mean??  I know what pert breasts are but that's about it.

 

In my limited experience of slightly more modern cars I have driven I would rate them as:

 

Rover 75 V6 - Outstanding, best I have driven for suspension comfort

Peugeot 406 - Excellent, similar to 405 but not as chuckable

Citroen Xsara - Excellent

Mercedes S420 (1999) - Fantastic, had air suspension

Fiat Panda (2009) - Good for a small car

 

Black marks to:

 

Mini (2005) - terrible, steers nicely though

Alfa Romeo Mito - worse

Audi A4 V6 (1997) - Hard and crashy

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Some of the most comfortable modern cars seem to be big 4x4 s, obviously once you go to stupid size rims and liquorice profile tyres this doesn't apply. But any Range Rover or Discovery will be very comfortable over typical crumbling British Tarmac and both the Lexus 450h and Touareg I've driven were lovely and comfy on the motorway.

Even Mrs N's Gaylander 2 on 255/50 18 s and simple steel springs is much more comfortable and quieter suspension than my Funfer or the 300C that preceded it, a car which obviously had its Septic springs swapped for Kraut ones on the way from Detroit to Graz.

[seth]

I think not. Nobody's had a go at the Blue Forum yet.

 

That's probably because everybody there gets blamed for ruining the suspension on their cars that manufacturers have obviously spent millions of pounds developing so that it works perfectly.   Err.....hang on....

[stuboy]

probably due to the tyres.. i run 215/35r18 on the mondeo and its rough ride..

[DSdriver]

Ahh tyres... why buy a modern car with formula1 type handling then when it needs a new set of rubber put on winky-wanky^® ditchfinders so that it no longer corners and stops like a demon?

[captain_70s]

Citroen C5. It's modern and the ride is incredible. 

Indeed. Dad had an diesel estate for a few years and we grew accustomed to it's comforts. Then he traded it in for an Octavia estate (4x4 diesel), it wasn't until that point that we realised just how comfy the Citroen was!

 

Everybody comments on how comfy my Dolomite is usually along the lines of "this seat is like a sofa". Modern car seats are like planks of wood in comparison, I guess it's to do with support or something as I'm sure extended periods of driving the Triumphs would give me a sore back. My Corsa D was horrendous, stiff suspension with low profile tyres, every bump in the road went straight up your spine, my '08 Yaris was better as it least had proper tyres.

 

I drove over a stone at 50mph and managed to punch a hole though my Corsa's £120 tyre and the £240 wheel... For that sort of money I could have bought a WHOLE CITROEN.

 

[2MB]

I've heard that the Nurburgring is pretty rough in places, it's probably not much different from a real world road surface.

The ring is quite undulating and bumpy, but it doesn't have any potholes thank fuck. It is just a circular road with rumble strips though, not a purpose built track. The e30 i took last year is lowered on decent springs and dampers; had it been on super stuff coilovers I think some of the lumps and bumps could've caused trouble

[forddeliveryboy]

My 02 Merc E320cdi with 17in wheels is supremely comfy and has decent suspension and it IS the lowered Avantgarde with sports suspension. I think an Elegance must be even nicer. The 05 Dispatch floats over speed humps, even fully laden.

 

Not all modern cars are shite.

 

Is your E-class a 210 or 211? The 210 is pretty much a 124 with a bigger body, so hardly modern? Didn't the estates still use the Cit-licenced springing, too?

[dugong]

Is your E-class a 210 or 211? The 210 is pretty much a 124 with a bigger body, so hardly modern? Didn't the estates still use the Cit-licenced springing, too?

LS' W124 estate has spheres (or something near as dammit equivalent to them). Fairly certain the 210s ditched hydropneumatics although I'm no expert (at anything).

[cort1977]

No, the W210 estates still have a hydraulic system linked to the PS reservoir.   Mine is making a funny noise and the ride is not that great although that may be poor roads 

[robinmasters]

I think not. Nobody's had a go at the Blue Forum yet.

Oh we have. We all have. WITHIN OUR OWN MINDS.

[MarvinsMom]

the fact that we are all here and NOT on the blue forum is all we need say about it....

[Pete-M]

I drove an E90 320d a while ago. Thing rode like it was on badly made bricks. Fucking awful, hugely fat steering wheel that never stopped jinking about pointlessly, tramlined like an Inter City 125, gutless unless ragged stupid, atrocious clutch action and it sounded like a truck.

 

Return journey was in a 2009 C220 CDi which felt like a limo in comparison, was quicker, quieter, better equipped, better handling and better on fuel.

 

If you want to try something really pointless, try the motoring journo's wet dream - the BMW 335d. Goes like the clappers, which is useful because it means you don't need to spend much time in it.