75 P6 V8 - Bye, this car

[Junkman]

Do not like.

Do not like one little bloody bit.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

To recap:

Car arrived with dead brake servo.

Servo was sent for reconditioning, and never came back.

Replacement servo was bought from eBay seller who assured me it was working. I paid for it to be installed. It did not work. 

Third servo was acquired from local breaker, which actually did work. 

...until March, when it started drinking brake fluid. 

 

Maybe 'drinking' is a bit much. It was merely sipping brake fluid, the reservoir dropping no more than a centimetre per month. Sometimes it would go weeks without dropping at all. Knowing what a pain in the arse it would be to rectify this problem, I got into the habit of checking the brake fluid daily and telling myself that I would sort it out as soon as possible. 

 

 

This marvellously sensible long term plan was working just excellently until I left the car parked for a week. In my absence it drained every drop. Shit. I refilled it, but it was too late. The brake pedal was spongy, and the new fluid was already draining. Shit. Another entry into the book of Conelrad Procrastination Blunders, which would be quite substantial if I bothered to write it. 

 

 

Look at all this stuff. The actual rebuilding of the servo was quite simple - I took a broken one apart a while ago so I knew what to expect, and aside from the half litre of brake fluid sloshing about in there everything was in good condition. Well, except those failed seals. They'd hardened enough that they tore when being removed. The repainting took significantly longer than the rebuild, but oh, what a pretty servo. 

 

 

I sure hope it doesn't get blasted with pressurised brake fluid in a minute. But first, a rare opportunity to clean the black mush from the bottom of the fluid reservoir. 

 

 

 

That felt good. Now to simply pop the servo back in (super easy) and rig up a custom lid for the brake bleeder, which I reckoned would only take a couple of minutes and would surely not power wash my engine bay with pressurised brake fluid. 

 

 

And lo, the cap immediately failed, drenching my engine bay with brake fluid. The brakes were bled, but I'm still not completely happy with the pedal feel, so on Monday I'll take it to a garage who can have another go with their pressure bleeder, which has hopefully never been described with an adjective like "improvised". 

 

Whatever. Total cost: £17 for the rebuild kit, the paint I already had, fiver for the brake fluid and then whatever I'm charged for the bleeding. Not bad. 

 

Hopefully I don't have to think about P6 brakes for a while. 

 

 

 

 

ha

[SiC]

Is that servo a remote installation? I had a lot of fun* trying to bleed my MGB brakes with one of them. Don't know about the P6 but on the MGB, BL put it at the wrong angle and so it gets air trapped in the wrong places.

 

The official Lockheed Delphi installation manual recommend putting the brake system under pressure (I used my Eezi bleed), then crack open the pipe unions on the booster. Make sure a rag or plenty of towel around the unions. For me, a fair bit of air came out and then brake fluid dribbled out.

 

Also leaving pressure on the pedal helped a fair bit too.

[SiC]

Just found this on my phones download file list. Hopefully helpful. It says about how the servo should be mounted and bleeding procedures.

981-173.pdf

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

Ah, that is very interesting, thanks! Yes, it's a remote Lockheed unit so that document is very relevant. 

 

I reckon I can make the Eezibleed work. The cap seals well enough, but it fountains brake fluid out the top of the level sensor. 

[SiC]

You should be able to do similar by putting pressure on the system with an assistant pushing on the pedal.

 

My dad who used to work on this stuff when he was younger in the day told me that if you bleed a caliper normally to get the pipe and bottom of the jar full of fluid. Then open the bleed nipple and pump vigorously 3 times. On the fourth, keep the pedal held down and tighten the nipple.

 

I have read on the MGB master (probably similar/same as the Rover) there is some sort of slow pressure release valve thing on it. So the Eezi bleed doesn't get as much pressure through the system as it does by pumping the pedal.

[Squire_Dawson]

That is unfortunate. I don't know much about brake servo's, but my thoughts are, if it is a later addition, can you do without? There is surprisingly little difference in operation between non-assisted and assisted brakes. Secondly, red rubber grease is handy to have; whenever I do a brake rebuild now I lather all seals in it. At a guess, there must be a one-way valve which is allowing the engine vacuum to suck brake fluid into the servo.

If you need help bleeding them and can wait 3 weeks I will happily assist, as I have all the necessary tools and bleed tube.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

That is unfortunate. I don't know much about brake servo's, but my thoughts are, if it is a later addition, can you do without? There is surprisingly little difference in operation between non-assisted and assisted brakes. Secondly, red rubber grease is handy to have; whenever I do a brake rebuild now I lather all seals in it. At a guess, there must be a one-way valve which is allowing the engine vacuum to suck brake fluid into the servo.

If you need help bleeding them and can wait 3 weeks I will happily assist, as I have all the necessary tools and bleed tube.

 

 

It's factory. All P6s had servos, and even larger ones on the V8. Back when I got the car it had to be moved about with no servo, and the pedal effort required is great enough to make the car undrivable. 

 

There wasn't anything wrong with this one really, just 40+ year old rubber seals having worn out. It still worked perfectly well. I suppose you could call this a service as much as a repair. 

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

Just finished Eezibleed cap version 2.0. 

 

 

All my cars end up with coins glued to them eventually. 

[Junkman]

Is that servo a remote installation? I had a lot of fun* trying to bleed my MGB brakes with one of them. Don't know about the P6 but on the MGB, BL put it at the wrong angle and so it gets air trapped in the wrong places.

 

The official Lockheed Delphi installation manual recommend putting the brake system under pressure (I used my Eezi bleed), then crack open the pipe unions on the booster. Make sure a rag or plenty of towel around the unions. For me, a fair bit of air came out and then brake fluid dribbled out.

 

Also leaving pressure on the pedal helped a fair bit too.

 

Whatever you have hitherto experienced in your life, you will be surprised how nonchalantly a P6 can render it insignificant.

You haven't really lived until you fixed the brakes of a P6.

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

 

You haven't really lived until you fixed the brakes of a P6.

 

 

That sounds like it comes from the same school of advice as, "you never feel more alive than when you're night fishing on the Limpopo with a torch"

[Skizzer]

I nearly got trampled by an angry hippo on the banks of the Limpopo once. I’d still take that over P6 brakes.

 

Good luck Dr Conelrad. May your god be with you.

[Angrydicky]

Where did you send your servo to when it was never returned?

[PhilA]

Do like. I do miss the driving experience of my (SD1/P6/P5 combo) powered vehicle. It was eminently pleasurable to be able to instruct the gearbox what to do with the throttle pedal (once I'd actually disconnected the kickdown lever from the heater controls-don't ask) and adjusted up a new set of linkages as per HBOL drawings. Those new fuel pumps look far too flimsy. Hope you continue to enjoy this one, looks like you're going in the right direction

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

Just finished Eezibleed cap version 2.0. 

 

Guess how well this worked. Sprays from the pipe area now. Version 2.1 coming soon. It worked long enough to try SiC's servo bleeding idea, but there didn't appear to be any air in there. 

[SiC]

What pressure are you feeding to it? I did find 20psi to be the absolute max. Can't say I'm a huge fan of the Eezi bleeder. The bottle on mine was very hard to get a good deal on. Too loose and it leaked. Tighten it too tight, it would come off the cap thread and leak. Likewise on that pipe join fitting

 

There are universal caps for the Sealey bleeder too which may work better. However I do think you can't beat an old fashioned pump on the pedal.

 

I had a lot of success with this Vizibleed and doing it by pedal pumping too. I started with the Eezi bleed to get some flowing through. Then pedal pumped for good measure.

 

Shockingly they actually stocked it in my local Halfords and it's reasonably priced.

http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/hand-tools/europat-vizibleed-brake-and-clutch-bleeding-kit

 

As it had a lid, unlike the jar I was using, I spilt far less on the floor and hands.

 

Did you manage trying to leaving pressure on the pedal overnight?

 

I was very close to ditching the brake servo altogether at one point. I fallen out with fixing brake systems. Especially after I dripped brake fluid from the Eezi bleed container on the wing. All because the damn thing leaked.

[Guest Hooli]

Just finished Eezibleed cap version 2.0. 

 

rvr-fluidcap.jpg

 

All my cars end up with coins glued to them eventually. 

 

So that's a penny washer.

[dollywobbler]

Love this thread. Have to agree about 'eazi' bleeders though. I didn't get on with mine at all, and find Mrs DW to be a far better alternative. She's got this pedal up/down business sorted, though we've never tried bleeding a P6 to be fair.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

When it works, the eezibleed is just fantastic. Nothing better. When it doesn't, it's a catastrophe. I have cap v2.1 ready, and I'll give it a go if it ever stops raining. Since it was raining so much today I figured it was a good time to change the coolant. I think it was just plain water. I'd have flushed it too, but it came out so clean I just refilled it. 

 

 

Nice to have a day where nothing broke!

 

Oh, the exhaust broke. 

 

[Junkman]

Time for the trusted straight pipe instead of back box therapy then.

It worked well* on the haunted car for ages**.

 

Exhausts and tyres. Best ignored.

[jonathan_dyane]

Ooooh, tap porn!

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

With just a little bit of effort I managed to get to the rear bleed nipple. 

 

 

Eezibleed Cap 2.1 also leaked, but swaddled with a whole Hilton worth of towels it worked well enough. After bleeding the brakes a second time, the pedal regained its usual firm and consistent feel. Happy with that, I took the car for a spin and found the brakes felt exactly as before (very good), except this time all the brake fluid remained in the reservoir. So I'll call that a success. 

 

Unfortunately the other day I left one of the windows wide open during a rainstorm, and there's now so much water in the car it cannot demist itself. Also, the heater really doesn't work well at all. The blower motor is utterly pathetic and it doesn't so much heat as lukewarm. 

 

Also it also occasionally forgets how to idle. 

 

Ooooh, tap porn!

 

Yeah, I feel like it should have snapped off and left a massive unpluggable hole in my engine block. Weird, right?

[Captain Furious]

Ooh, I didn’t realise the P6 has inboard rear discs. It makes sense now why they’re so feared.

[Junkman]

Not only are they inboard disc brakes, they are also the most bonkers inboard disc brakes of all evah.

Rube Goldberg would have been delighted.

[Ghosty]

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

P6 brakes fun!

 

So accessible!

 

 

Super simple rear calipers:

 

 

That component at the bottom which looks like a folded up slice of ham? That's a powerful spring which holds all that lot under tension. So to assemble the caliper, you build it all up, add the spring, duck for cover as it explodes all over the garage, hunt down all the parts, build it all up, add the spring, duck for cover as it explodes all over the garage, hunt down all the parts... It's like trying to build a complicated Lego Technics model on a trampoline. 

 

The seal in there sometimes fails, causing that whole mechanism to fill with brake fluid. This is one of the reasons we LOL in the eBay thread when a P6 is listed with a mysteriously low brake fluid level (most of them).

 

When I rebuilt my rear calipers, one of them refused to operate the handbrake properly. So I took it apart and tried again, only for the fault to remain. So I gave it to Junkman, who is more experienced with P6 brakes than he'd like. He rebuilt it, but it still didn't work. There was no obvious reason why. So our mechanic (who worked on P6s when they were new) rebuilt it yet again. He found no fault, yet it once again refused to work. I swapped it for another caliper, which worked straight away. Only logical conclusion: haunted caliper. 

 

Changing the rear pads is exactly as easy as you'd think it is! Oh, no, it's even worse, because you need a special tool to wind the pistons back in. It looks like some kind of vintage automated contraceptive pill dispenser. 

 

 

If your P6 is from 1966 or earlier, it probably has Dunlop brakes. These are exactly as easy to work with as the later Girling type, except with scarcer parts which cost twice as much!

 

That still too easy for you? Hunt down one of the four cylinder export models with dual circuit brakes. They really meant dual circuit too - to the point of having two brake servos. One for the front brakes and one for the rear. 

 

 

At least the front calipers are super simple. You can bleed them without jacking the car or removing the wheels. That servo of mine was removed and installed in minutes too. 

[LC Torana]

rvr-tool.jpg

 

My God - the Holy Grail!

 

We are not worthy.

[Junkman]

That servo of mine was removed and installed in minutes too.

Mone too, but the studs snapped and needed welding back on.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

Where did you send your servo to when it was never returned?

 

 

A well known P6 specialist. All water under the bridge now. A refund was issued as soon as I asked, and I said I didn't want my broken servo returned. I was only upset about the lost time. The car was off the road for months waiting for that servo, which I was repeatedly promised was only a week away. 

[danthecapriman]

Nice job on this.

 

That wind back tool looks suspiciously like the one I posted to Junkman a while ago! If it is, glad to see it's come in handy! It'd been sat in my tool box for years, oddly I've never had a P6 so I've no idea why or how it came to be there!?