Driving pre 1970 cars on...

[Justin Case]

Let's get this in proportion, there are about 800 deaths per year to car occupants. This is still too many, and every one is a personal tragedy, but it does equate to about 1 in 75,000 of the population, or to put it another way, a little over 7 for a city the size of Sheffield every year. This figure fell by half between 2000 and 2012, but so did the figure for pedestrians, so perhaps safer roads have had a greater effect than safer modern cars?  Also, classic car policies are cheaper, and insurance companies as we all know are not charities. So, be careful, but no need to be paranoid

[dollywobbler]

All I'm saying is you can be the best driver on the planet, but you cannot avoid every idiot. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try - I certainly do - but you don't always get sight of a car before it hits you. Certainly true that people don't check mirrors enough - I find this a lot when training folk up for minibus driving - but I still maintain that Mr Trabant couldn't have done anything. It's pretty normal to assume that a car blatting up behind you is actually going to pull over and move into the other lane, so you've got a very short period of time to think "er, he's going to hit me." And if you're paying that much attention to your rear view mirror, you'll probably drive into something yourself.

 

Heart disease is still many more times more likely to kill you than a car crash though.

[dangerousdave]

I think theres for and against on everything at the moment I drive a mk3 Cortina seatbelts in the front but none in the back no abs no side impact bars no airbags but I feel safer in that than any new car mainly because of the expanse of metal front and back but to be honest if anybody was going to hit it at a silly speed id want to be killed as awful as it sounds but that car means that much to me
 
as of seatbelts I agree seatbelts are a good thing but I have one story my dad told me when he was younger before seatbelts he was out with his mate in his car going along a cliff road tried t overtake saw a car coming the other way swerved and went down the cliff demolishing every panel they both escaped with cuts and bruises and the doctor said to my dad if hed been wearing a seatbelt he would be dead

 

 

 

heres some pictures of it

[SambaS]

A friends Dad crashed an MG Maestro in the 90s whilst not belted up and was thrown from the car, he said it was obvious had he remained in the drivers seat he would have been killed.

[scooters]

Numptie driving experience today. I join the A69 Westbound from hexham. Catch up a tesco lorry driving along at 40 mph. No opportunity to overtake so a queue builds up behind me. New 3 series bmw right behind me. He's sitting about 6 feet off my rear bumper in an overtaking position.

 

Anyway I know the road so start to back off the lorry and change into 3rd in anticipation of a long uphill straight.

Sure enough road is clear so I boot it past the lorry and continue accelerating up thd hill. BMW driver follows me and then goes on to overtake me as well. He then slows down to 55 mph for the next 8 miles. I end up overtaking him again.

 

Now why did he overtake me if he was going to sit at 56mph?

 

I suspect the answer was he saw an old Volvo so thought I'd be slower than him despite the fact I went past the lorry at 70 plus...

 

Typical lazy driver. Not considering speeds and distances and rather reacting to perceptions rather than reality.

 

DW sums it up above. It's the terrifying lack of awareness of drivers especially on motorways and the cocooning of drivers in soundproofing and aircon does nothing to highlight the reality of speed.

 

I follow motorcycle rules when driving and treat every vehicle around me as driven by a potential murderer. Anticipate the worse and it shouldn't happen.

 

But there is nothing to protect Mr Tranent as there is not a lot you can do if a rumanian lorry driver whose been awake for 48 hours ploughs into the back of your picasso at 50 mph in a tailback.

[forddeliveryboy]

Numptie driving experience today. I join the A69 Westbound from hexham. Catch up a tesco lorry driving along at 40 mph. No opportunity to overtake so a queue builds up behind me. New 3 series bmw right behind me. He's sitting about 6 feet off my rear bumper in an overtaking position.

 

Anyway I know the road so start to back off the lorry and change into 3rd in anticipation of a long uphill straight.

Sure enough road is clear so I boot it past the lorry and continue accelerating up thd hill. BMW driver follows me and then goes on to overtake me as well. He then slows down to 55 mph for the next 8 miles. I end up overtaking him again.

 

 

I follow motorcycle rules when driving and treat every vehicle around me as driven by a potential murderer. Anticipate the worse and it shouldn't happen.

 

But there is nothing to protect Mr Tranent as there is not a lot you can do if a rumanian lorry driver whose been awake for 48 hours ploughs into the back of your picasso at 50 mph in a tailback.

 

 

In today's society, you are only as good as how much you spend. So obviously the driver of a new BMW is bound to try to overtake any car which is worth* less than his. I'm slightly surprised he didn't get upset when you re-passed him. BMWs ime are very touchy about being passed on a road which demands some skill, especially if you're driving summut old.

 

As for being rear-ended when sitting at the back of a queue, I'll often make sure I've left a gap in front of me rather than being right up to whatever's in front, and made sure I've an escape route down the side of the queue if anything nasty looms in the mirror.

[New POD]

When I purchased a 'classic' mini in 2010, for me, and my son to share, just after he passed his test, I had numerous comments (from well meaning people) about the safety of a car designed in 1959, (and only evolved into a slightly safer vehicle as legislation required) 

 

My belief was that at 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22, I had owned a selection of 2 wheeled vehicles ranging from a Moped, with Off-road pretentions, a 125 with off road pretentions, a Z500 with (bafflefree) 1 into 4  ansa, and an RD350LC, and that crashing these vehicles would have resulted in much more injury, and that crashing was more likely, but that certain roads are to be avoided unless there's good reason.  So I'd never have ridden the RD350LC on the M6, because at 80 mph, some twat would be 3 inches behind your bumper, and death would be eventually certain to occur.  Given that I seized the engine at 90 mph on an empty dual carriage way and we survived to rebuild it into 375 cc with 3mm oversize pistons proves that was a good decision.  

 

I digress, the MX5 that I occasionally drive, when it's sunny, doesn't have a roll cage, or airbags, and I "often" drive it on the motorway with the top down.  I suspect that in a crash I would come out close to dead, but the difference is that it will do motorway speeds, and at 70 mph is just coming "on cam" in 5th, so mixing it with the morons in the outside lane is sometimes a hilarious experience.  But It's still GOT to be safer than an RD375LC and that's my measure of acceptability.

[dollywobbler]

I do hate being the last person in the traffic jam and similarly leave a good space. I watched a Fiat Punto skidding towards me in the rear view mirror once and had enough space to just move forward as he bounced off the kerb and to a stop. Mind you, I was once in one of those sudden stop incidents on a motorway and had a 38 tonner go screaming past on the hard shoulder. Despite having several cars behind me, if that truck had tried to brake rather than swerve, I wouldn't be here now. 

 

Samba - there's always the odd incident where not wearing a seatbelt might have saved a life. Truth is, compulsory seat belt law cause a huge drop in fatalities. 

[DVee8]

My bugbear is the fools that must get out of junctions or roundabouts in front of the old car because it is so slow and will hold me up.

[Squire_Dawson]

The trouble has, is and always will be the lack of conscious thought and concern for one's fellow man. Going too fast, driving too close to the vehicle in front (remember the two-second rule?) and taking your eyes off the road are the major causes of accidents. I would be strongly in favour of more stringent driving tests and re-tests every couple of years.

 

Defensive driving is always the best - leave plenty of space, look ahead and around and actually take note of what is going on and react accordingly, and obey the speed limit. People always seem to be in such a damn hurry these days.

[Squire_Dawson]

The driving test is seen by many as an obstacle to be overcome - not a learning curve and a chance to learn the Highway Code or the art of good driving. And for some of those who do pass the test, the tuition ends there.

[Felly Magic]

The thing is right, I still see shedloads of people NOT wearing seatbelts in cars that have airbags, it's normally young girls too, and many actually drive like absolute loons, like the one who almost ran me off the road on a narrow country lane as she was doing about 40 mph in a 30 in the middle of the bloody road. One day she will be a statistic

[Albert Ross]

Newer cars may be "safer" in respect of equipment fitted, but it's made them lardy. Remove all of this "safety" kit, and you get a nimble, lightweight vehicle, that is capable of swerving out of the way. ABS can help, and takes up little space, also adding little weight. But these 8 inch thick doors, multiple airbags, and superthick seats etc all add weight high up. I drive a 44 year old Land Rover, as most of you know. Single circuit drum brakes, that have manual adjusters. Recirculating ball steering with 6 track rod ends. Double sprung cone bearing type kingpins, as opposed to the later Solid pins. Narrow tyres (Radials on this one, I changed from crossplies once they got to 3mm) Loads of sharp edges in the cab, nothing soft ahead of the driver, and the seatbelts bolted into aluminium body panels, through galvanised steel cappings. Not a particularly effective mounting for an 18 stone man at 50mph...... I know if my time comes, and I'm forced to take action against a collision, I'm not in the most dynamic of vehicles, it's not going to swerve out of the way. It can stop well though... 11" drums are rather effective, but need a firm shove due to lack of a servo. As rearguard protection, I have added a top level "Chapter 8" style reflective Chevron pattern to the cream coloured roof. People take the piss, but it has certainly reduced tailgaters. My motor is bright red, nearly 8 feet tall with the roof rack, has orange beacons on that, and has a Military double bumper with tow hitch on the front. Yet STILL people try to pull out on me, and in. The most recent phenomenon is to overtake me on a dual carriageway, and as they pull in, turn left almost immediately.

    I followed one such driver, as I really had to anchor up.... When asked WHY she did it, the reply was that "You weren't doing 40...... it IS a 40 limit you know"....... To which I pointed out that 40mph is a maximum, not a target, or a minimum. Did she know about safe braking distances? I asked her if she knew what my vehicle weighed. "Why would I need to know that?"  Well, if you imagine 3 tons climbing through your back window, as you stop more efficiently than me, you might need to protect yourself. The next bit amazed me. "Well you shouldn't have been following so close then, if you didn't think you could stop" !!!! I suggested the lady take a few refresher lessons. Apparently my motor shouldn't be allowed on the road because it's too old...... and slow. Well no, it accelerates slower than modern vehicles, but will most certainly travel close to the maximum permitted speed for most roads. People have forgotten how to use finesse when behind the wheel.. It's all or nothing.

[scooters]

Some of the most aggressive drivers out there appear to be 20 something girls in suits in A3s and bmw 1s

[forddeliveryboy]

Very nicely put, Mr Ross.

[trigger]

I fitted newer front belts to my Cortina as I find them more comfortable and easier to use than the old static belts although I still have them in the Civic as I can't find any straight forward replacements.

 

I drive more carefully in the older cars as I'm worried about stopping them, old cars don't brake as sharply as the modern stuff but saying all that I'm a strong believer that when it's your time, it's your time. No forward planning or pussy foot driving will stop someone ploughing into you.

[michael1703]

Surviving a car crash is easier when you are young, I think a 72 year old woman would be more at risk from dying from a car crash than a 22 year old bloke no matter what vehicle they were in

[AlabamaShrimp]

The trouble has, is and always will be the lack of conscious thought and concern for one's fellow man. Going too fast, driving too close to the vehicle in front (remember the two-second rule?) and taking your eyes off the road are the major causes of accidents. I would be strongly in favour of more stringent driving tests and re-tests every couple of years.

 

Defensive driving is always the best - leave plenty of space, look ahead and around and actually take note of what is going on and react accordingly, and obey the speed limit. People always seem to be in such a damn hurry these days.

I think this is spot on and really effects England more then other countries. What I mean is nearly every Road has painted markings for everything repeated with signs upon signs. People become blinded and complacent driving like a robot because they have been "told to do something" but are not actually paying attention.

 

In contrast (and best example I can think of) the roads in Malta are at best dirt tracks. You can drive how you like in a car that is noting more than moving rust (might have changed now they are in the eu not been in ages) because of this everyone was watching everything. They expect to be pulled out on, have stuff going to slow/fast on the wrong side of the road or swerving at any moment. Never seen one crash there and never felt more safe* while driving

[dollywobbler]

Er, bad example! I found Maltese roads a nightmare. Especially as coach drivers seem to think they are also race drivers. Absolutely terrifying. I did see one smash and several near-misses. And cars driving around at night with hazards on because the lights didn't work...

 

MOST of the time, driving here is fine but the sooner they fit devices that prevent the use of phones in cars, the better. I see folk all the time, especially van drivers, not just talking into phones, but checking for text messages and/or emails. While driving! It's inattention that causes most accidents. 

[Felly Magic]

Malta. Where they drive in the shade, regardless what side of the road that may be. And yup driving whilst on the mobile is a bugbear that I have been guilty of, especially when i worked in security and got a 'shout'. The vans & cars did have Bluetooth, but still I never felt comfy being on the blower, but sometimes I had no choice, esp if I was on the motorway

[HH-R]

I saw someone waiting at a T-Junction sitting waiting for the traffic to clear to turn right earlier. Had to do a double take though as she was on the wrong side of the road! Modern Golf or Polo, they look the same from the front.

[Junkman]

Malta. Where they drive in the shade, regardless what side of the road that may be.

 

What? Not in the middle of the road, as they do in England?

How shockingly uncivilised.

[AlabamaShrimp]

Lol that's why it's a good example. Anything can happen, it's expected and people are ready for it. They think while driving, if they don't they don't get home

[forddeliveryboy]

The further from 'civilisation' one goes, the more civilised people behave. Unless you turn up in a newish Range Rover or you're an invading army. Scotland, away from the crowds, is a perfect place to see civilised driving. People pull over to let you pass if you come up behind them, they move over if coming down a pass on a narrow road, even switching blinding headlamps off so you can see the road.

 

In England, if you dare overtake, there is often a 'warning' flash of the headlamps or some hand signal, then they will increase their speed from 53mph to whatever you're doing, and drive threateningly close. It doesn't matter how politely you overtake, or how inoffensive your car, some really resent this and see it as a form of social injustice or put-down. Smacks of massive insecurity with their lives, or some other problem. It's most fun in something like a Dyane - a Volvo once became so irate he re-overtook (I was doing 65-ish on a good B road, he'd been sat at 50) but was sitting in the back of plod's BMW a few miles further on.

[Felly Magic]

Last night on the A14 I was being tailgated by some stupid bint in a Lexus soft roader thing because I dared overtake a lorry, I wouldn't mind but I was doing 75 mph!

[robinmasters]

Hope the Beemer driver got locked up and bummed in the shower for the rest of his natural life. 

 

Edited for justice.

 

No excuse for fannying around with your telephone while driving. 

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

One of the things I like about my XJ40 is that it was one of the safest cars of its generation. They're solid old things. I'm sure it will be less strong and less safe than a modern equivalent, but I'm not sure modern cars are quite so indestructible as many of their tailgaiting owners believe. Suffer a major accident at full motorway speed and you're most likely skewered in anything.

 

Long ago I was a passenger in a car in Italy, waiting in standing traffic on a motorway. The car in the lane next to us was a Mk3 Ford Escort. It would have been a fairly new car at the time. For some reason, the driver of a Mercedes W126 S Class didn't notice that the Escort in front of him had stopped and drove into the back of it without slowing. There was nowhere for the Escort's driver to go, whether he had seen the Mercedes or not.

 

The 'S' Class hit the Escort so hard it ploughed right through the car, crushing it. The car was so damaged, it is inconceivable to me that anyone could have survived in it. Someone told my father the driver and passenger of the Escort were dead and that the driver of the Mercedes suffered only a broken leg (or foot?). I was a teenager at the time and decided there and then that I was never going to own a small car.

 

Equally though, I had a friend who once rolled his absolute flea pit death trap of an MG Midget on the M6 and walked away without a scratch. The car was disintegrating even before the accident, so there was not much left after he stuffed it into a crash barrier, then rolled it. He blamed mechanical failure (which was fully believable). I think he fell asleep!

 

On a slight tangent, I picked someone up from the airport recently, fairly late at night, which involved driving down an 'A' road with a 60 mph limit. The road isn't particularly straight, so I was doing about 50-odd. I came up behind a newish Audi diesel thing which was travelling very slowly indeed. Twenty odd. After about a mile of this, I reached a long, straight bit of road and decided to pass him. When I was parallel, he floored it. I let him go, pulling in behind him. He then braked, dropping his speed back to twenty odd. I followed him at this speed for about two miles to the motorway junction.

 

At the junction for the motorway, he made the traffic lights, whilst I had to stop since they had turned to red. A couple of minutes later I saw the same Audi on the motorway, doing about 50 in the inside lane. I attempted to pass him in the middle lane, since even at night, I don't think 50 mph is fast enough on the motorway. Again he floored the accelerator and having more power/performance than me, undertook my car at quite a rate. I pulled in behind him; I had no desire to race and my junction was only a mile or two down the motorway in any event. Predictably, he again slowed down to 50-odd. Isn't this strange!

[Jon]

Being a fire fighter in our local volunteer fire brigade over here where 90+% of the roads in our area are NSL, it's not uncommon for me to be involved in cutting out patients of all ages from motor vehicle accidents (MVAs) and of course, not all of them survive. The national fleet in NZ is made up of a lot of 1990's Japanese cars, though admittedly, most of them are likely to be more solid than their UK equivalent models. I've had a bit of a debate about it in the past with one of the other fire fighters, when he mentioned that one guy had survived due mostly to being in a modern Hilux. True, it he'd been in an older car without a 'safety cell', the outlook wouldn't have been so good; but it would probably have been the same prognosis if he'd been in a modern Hiace, due to the cab forward layout.

 

However, I argued the number of variables involved, like visibility from the driving seat, differences in weight, size, performance and most crucially, driver awareness meaning a different car wouldn't have been in that exact spot at that time etc. just go to show that comparing one car with another isn't realistic; we've had patients die in moderns but walk away from incidents involving older models. From experience merely of attending incidents, it appears that most accidents locally involve cars travelling in opposite directions or single cars not driving to road conditions, rather than rear-ending shunts. I summed up that if safety were the main priority in motorists minds, you'd only see one model of car on the road: the 'safest' one. I'm sure I'd change my tune if a loved one were killed in part from being in a 1980's car for instance but then I'd probably feel the same about a step ladder, if one of those had been involved in their demise. 

 

Actually though, I'm not really sure what the purpose of this thread is, especially when we're all just preaching to the converted, posting on a forum for old car enthusiasts.

[warren t claim]

As a taxi driver I cover 1200 miles a week without wearing a seat belt. I'm aware that I'm not as well protected in most circumstances but I drive accordingly and it's probably safer than riding my CBR1000 or sitting in the house smoking.

[dollywobbler]

I've never understood that taxi rule. Is it really such a ballache to put a belt on? I always belt-up in the minibus, even when I'm effectively multi-dropping passengers. Given that most injuries (not deaths) occur on urban roads, it seems a bit odd. Not sure what the rules in Mallorca are now, but last time I visited, seatbelts were not legally required in town. Also odd!