19 Years of Tin Snail - Back to normality

[Six-cylinder]

I have the bonus of a plastic Reliant for winter 

Does it not have any metal subframes or chassis that are prone to rust?

[For Fiats Sake]

With the Panda resto spent as much on under and inner panels protection as exterior paint. Hoping it will survive many years and not start dissolving. I have carport, though leaky the through draft dries the cars under it. I did buy a breathable waterproof cover for outside storage but haven't bothered using it yet. Edge of Pennines Halifax must be as bad as Wales for wet which doesn't bother me as much as salt does. Take moderns through it but not resto panda!

I did home underseal my first panda and use it throughout winter. It had rotted through everywhere it had been done, not worth bothering with doing and cars now a donor.

Resto bloke had the replacement car in a dry warehouse for weeks before he even touched it to make sure all the gloop would properly stick everywhere too.

Good luck.

[dollywobbler]

primer the whole damned thing in stonechip!

 

Not sure that'd help, because stonechip is porous...

[captain_70s]

Having bought a second Morris a few years back, this one is similarly accorded much more consideration.   Hearing legends about the previous owner never letting it get wet hasn't helped, either....

I bought a second Dolomite to spare the first, but then it got rusty so I used the first one and then that got rusty too...

 

The ad for my 1850HL said it was never taken out in the rain, the owner was using it as his only car until replacing it with a P6 and later a Scimitar... I also saw it parked up a while before it was for sale, namely in TESCO's car park in the pouring rain. Odd, that.

[dollywobbler]

Progress!

My main aim this morning was to strip the bodyshell down. First up, interior.

 

Made a note of the mileage. Third time around.

 

Wiring loom out.

 

Vent flap and wiper motor removed. Looks dead now!

 

Stripped!

 

Body-to-chassis bolts have all been removed, and the body is now free. Can't really do much more until I get the trailer wheels back. Then it's onto the trailder, and off to Bradford.

[forddeliveryboy]

DW - there look to be plenty of good bits and those inner rear arches would have needed replacing with holes not half as big anyway. The chassis is obviously still fine too, since you haven't mentioned the galv rusting through. Glass half empty or half full? As the evenings get lighter and the birdsong more plentiful, my cars all seem less bad.

 

 

The metal is so thin on 2cvs that they do dissolve quickly once rust gets a hold. Good luck!

 

Yet I've had sixties ones which have been more rusty than a rusty nail, but with no corrosion eating through the steel. Mercedes had the same problem in the 90s, it's not the gauge of the steel so much as its quality, as well as corrosion-protection and build quality. Poorer steel isn't as strong as well as not as corrosion-resistant so it's a bit of a viscious circle.

[dollywobbler]

Aye, the more I've stripped, the more actual metal I have discovered! Pretty much everything in the bottom six inches will be replaced, and bits further up too.

[forddeliveryboy]

Have you got a drive-in swimming pool and a drum full of molasses on order?

[dollywobbler]

This makes a great read!

I could never imagine owning a car for so long, 10 months is my record to date as I get bored easily.

 

Hope you get the project finished!

 

I'm the same to be honest! XM is doing incredibly well to be here after almost 18 months. The 2CV must be something special.

 

The restoration fund now stands at a remarkable £1206. I've chucked it all in a savings account to stop me accidentally spending it. Mind you, I know well enough how quickly that sum of money can get eaten up by a thorough restoration - and this will be one. I'll need to start robbing back all the bits I've pinched for the Dyane for a start...

[dollywobbler]

Hmmm. Just went virtual shopping, and all the body panels I need come to over £1200. Yikes. Well, I've started down this road, so I guess the only way is forward. Fleet definitely needs a clearout.

[richardmorris]

Earlier cars ( not just 2cvs) were also assisted by the amount of lead and chromium in paint. Very good rust proofing abilities, which is why they painted oil platforms with it.

[Bfg]

Below shows a solution tried (this 'Kampa' tent had been used x3 times and was bought end-of-season inexpensively off ebay)  when I bought my dreamed of 'retirement classic' in October 2014.  Unfortunately after just 7-months - UV deteriorated its nylon material and it started to tear apart. Soon after he guy lines also started to fail. 

 

The Jag was out of my financial league, so she had to go (last October)    but the cover remains.. now with a white tarp over the tent's frame.  It's not as pretty as you see in the photo - but still it's been very usable ...through two winters now.   It's ventilated but dry.  And lets the light through for when working on the car.    You might want to note the fence panels, facing to the south east - to keep the firkn gales off !!    I did consider fence panels around the 3 weather sides and then putting a cover over it,  but it wasn't economical for me to do here as I rent the house.

 

I wonder if a car port is the way to go ? ..because when the rain comes in horizontally it's useless.  That happens a lot over here in Suffolk, but I should think even worse in Wales.   Of course, unless one has the benefit of a heated garage then I reckon lots of ventilation is a necessity for any daily driver classic. 

 

Perhaps a car-port ..sided in with fence panels, to let the air through but keeping the worse of the rain at bay, might be a solution. 

 

 

NB., the tent has a sewn in ground sheet.  That or very well drained hard-standing is (imo) essential to keep the car's underside dry.   Cold wet ground underneath seems to radiate condensation !

 

As someone who's just bought an old Shitroen again ...and am about to spend a lot of my savings to have the metalwork put right (albeit with zintec coated panels) - then I'd really like to know how to keep the damp out...   I'm surprised to hear you say that rubberised stone chip is not waterproof.  I thought it was.  That was the route I was going + pressure injected wax-oil in all the cavities..  

 

Certainly I'll never put in rubber floor mats as they do in 2cv's.  They'll just trap moisture under them.

 

Wish you much better fortunes this time around Ian.  

[dollywobbler]

I always tended to remove the mats through the winter, though it appears that didn't much help! Tent isn't a bad shout. I've seen folding garages, though they can be quite pricey. 

[forddeliveryboy]

The welds can rust, whether new panels are electro-plated or not. Etch prime, paint, seal. Shutz if exposed underneath. Etch priming properly makes a massive difference, as do thin layers of everything. With my more rot-prone cars, I try to use them all the year round, just avoiding the roads when they're salt-laden and wet. Lack of airflow is as bad for a car as it is a wooden boat, standing on grass the very worst. I'd never cover a car, except with a carport.

 

 

Earlier cars ( not just 2cvs) were also assisted by the amount of lead and chromium in paint. Very good rust proofing abilities, which is why they painted oil platforms with it.

 

True - what was that white stuff they used to use on the brake pipes, and the lovely shiny brown on chassis? Superb. But I've still got metal from 60s cars which has a load of rust on the surface once the paint had long gone, with the corrosion going no deeper. Whereas an 80s car would show a bit of rust and before you knew it there would be more air than metal. 

[dollywobbler]

There was progress today. First, wheel it out of the garage.

 

Then, Mrs DW and I somehow managed to lift the body off between us and get it onto the trailer. You really need three people for this job, but thankfully Mrs DW is awesome.

 

See? Really awesome!

 

So, body is on the trailer, and the chassis has been shipped back off to a friendly local's garage - where the car has been sitting for months. We had to push it up the driveway, and along the road - hence the hi-vis. It's a good job Mrs DW doesn't get daunted by much! And that the roads are quiet. No traffic at all while we did this. Which was nice.

 

On Monday, I'm dragging the body up to Bradford. Anyone need anything hauling south? Empty trailer on offer - albeit one that is quite short. Too short for a 2CV body it turns out...

[dollywobbler]

Today, I went to Bradford. The day started with a mild frost and soft focus.

 

After 3.5hrs, I was 160 miles away in Bradford, and Elly's bodyshell was being hauled into the heavens. Citwins are doing the work, which largely consists on Alan here on chain duty. He's a bloomin' good welder.

 

Here's one he did earlier. It's had pretty much the same bits replaced that mine needs, all in lovely zintec.

 

Then there was nowt to do but drag an empty trailer home.

 

A grand day out. Got to drive through Halifax. I think I'd like to explore the place sometime. I love Yorkshire. XM got a bit warm going up that huge hill on the M62, and the steering went notchy at times, but was otherwise impeccable. Maybe I'll give it that hydraulic flush that I've been promising it since I got it...

[dollywobbler]

Update time!

[dollywobbler]

JohnK is now delivering the bonnet, doors and wing panels to Citwins so they can be sorted out too. I'm very grateful to John for assisting with this! I was wondering how I was going to get them up there, but he then buys the best car to transport them, and it's on his way home! Thanks John.

[oldcars]

Does it not have any metal subframes or chassis that are prone to rust?

I'm lucky, its a very early Rialto so has a galvanised chassis. That and a previous oil leak has coated the front half for extra protection.

[John F]

By some sort of a wild coincidence I ended up chatting to a mate of yours in a pub in West Yorkshire the other night, Ian (Andrew xxxx, secretary of the 2cv club?)...

[dollywobbler]

By some sort of a wild coincidence I ended up chatting to a mate of yours in a pub in West Yorkshire the other night, Ian (Andrew xxxx, secretary of the 2cv club?)...

 

Ah yes. Our membership secretary. Us 2CVers are spread out.

[Bfg]

Update time!

[ youtu.be/IiwFz307O3U ]

 

Somewhat reminiscent of 'the original broom' ..  I presume the chassis is a galvanised replacement ?

 

Is it just me or do others find it really quite extraordinary that such rust should have happened ...after a professional restoration.. really not so many years ago. ?  And/or that the car was deemed roadworthy (safe for other road users and  for its young family occupants)  until recently.  

 

And then again from watching the video ;  that grinding sparks should not be screened off from other vehicle parts in the workshop.  

 

Anyway, I'm glad you took the glass and doors out. !   Perhaps you'll paint it yourself this time around.?

[dollywobbler]

Yes, the chassis is galvanised. Engine and gearbox have been replaced. Very little original car left!

 

Looking back, I'm not sure I find the rust that surprising. After all, the first restoration was when the car was 16 years old. 14 years after that, it's happening again. It was stripped for a cosmetic overhaul in 2005/6 and the paint used then really didn't help. It was far too hard, cracked in lots of places and allowed moisture in to wreak havoc. It covered 105,000 miles before the first restoration, and close to that again before the second restoration. In the service manual, perhaps they should state "replace body every 100,000 miles."

 

Both the other bodyshells in the workshop are undergoing the same work, before paint, so not sure the angle grinder action is dangerous to them. 

 

I have now decided to pay for the body to be painted again as I think it's the best way. That's why the other panels have now been taken to the car. The reason for this is pretty simple. I'll be collecting the body with the chassis as that's the safest way of transporting it (ie just bolt it down). Therefore, it makes sense to have the body painted before this happens (and before the glass is refitted - a job I really don't fancy). Alan also has very good kit for blowing wax into crevices too, and that can only happen after paint. I'd still like to get a bit creative with the car when it's finished, but we'll see.

[plasticvandan]

has no one galvanised the whole body before paint before?

[Dick Cheeseburger]

has no one galvanised the whole body before paint before?

Good theory. I guess it wouldn't be cheap, but if you're keeping the car, and are already in balls deep...

[scruff]

Would require careful dip as they are so weedy.

[richardmorris]

has no one galvanised the whole body before paint before?

Yes,

 

It was for sale earlier for £10K on ebay.

[forddeliveryboy]

It's worth remembering what speeds rot on its way besides heat and damp. 

 

Poor steel. Stress. Lack of corrosion protection.

 

The cheapest steel is used for repro panels. They're also significantly lighter than the originals, in the case of old Cits as well as most if not all others. It's a good job they are electroplated today, or they'd last 18 months unless pickled in preserve.

 

The 2cv was carefully designed to have no spare metal in its structure, and was just the right strength for the construction and steel properties of the 1950s and 60s.

 

Chassis and lower bulkheads weakened by rot stress up the rest of the shell, meaning more chance of rot in sections where you wouldn't believe it possible.

 

Aftermarket chassis stress the shell differently, sometimes creating hot spots of stress. So yet more rot. 

 

Preventing rot from the inside out rather than the outside in is key, but there are sections of a 2cv body which are 'blind'. With decent steel these were rarely a problem, but 80s cars can erupt faster than cancer in a radiation victim.

 

I suggest spilling a cubie of warm vegoil inside the car every November, then release a few mice. They'll coat their fur in this anti-corrosion protection and then transfer it to the inside of the sills, chassis and other box sections if you make holes in the right places. 

[chaseracer]

I suggest spilling a cubie of warm vegoil inside the car every November, then release a few mice. They'll coat their fur in this anti-corrosion protection and then transfer it to the inside of the sills, chassis and other box sections if you make holes in the right places. 

 

Brilliant*!

 

[forddeliveryboy]

Here's what the metal used to be like on a 2cv. There forms a surface rust which doesn't seem too keen on ferreting its way down through the steel and creating 'rot'. It has a sharp ring if you rap it with your knuckles, unlike later stuff which sounds like soggy cardboard even when new. Chalk and cheese. 

 

An 80s car would have developed holes all round the screen, with the vent shutter only a memory, kept alive with the gaping hole and UV-tattered rubber seal.

 

People just don't realise how much manufacturers play around with the steel quality (and other materials) in cars as a car's life-cycle progresses. I just about remember the big hoo-haa within the 2cv fraternity when unleaded came in and 4 star was phased out, because engines were blowing up and overheating. Everyone assumed it was the unleaded, where in reality it was a combination of things - gearboxes which were assembled with the diff too tight so it was like having a brake on all the time, poorer materials throughout the engine, general poor assembly quality, crap servicing and so on. 

 

Around the time CItroen declared the engine safe for use on unleaded, they decreased the engine material quality. There wasn't even a reminder to check valve clearances or fit cooler plugs. You couldn't make it up.