TFL fine advice *updated 08.11.13*

[Jim Bell]

Sold a car to a mong. Next day, he parks it on a red line in London.

 

Transport for London issue me a fine of £130.

 

I ring them up, and am advised that I need a confirmation letter from the DVLA to show that I was not the registered keeper at the time of the fines issue.

 

I ring DVLA and they say I need to request the letter confirming change of registered keeper, and that it can take up to 4 weeks for them to provide this.

So I send them the letter.

 

28 days pass.

 

I get another letter from Transport For London explaining that because I have not made a representation to them proving that I was not the registered keeper at the time of the fine, the price has now gone up to £195. This fine must be paid. I have chosen not to appeal withing 28 days and therefor must pay in full within 14 days or it goes to the ballifs.

 

 

Smashing.

 

Absolute NO WIN situation. I'm still waiting for a confirmation letter from the DVLA, which TFL now say they wont entertain.

 

 

Any one have any sage advice?

 

Helpful advice ideally.

 

 

[Novanick1]

sounds like your in a bit of a pickle, unlucky mate 

[dollywobbler]

I don't see how they can still fine you. I'd still be arguing the toss. They're going to have a bunch of standards 'nasty' letters sent out at certain times. Write back and say "I'm waiting for evidence. There was no way that evidence was going to arrive within 29 days. SUCK YO MOMMA!"

 

Maybe don't include the last bit.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

You just need this letter from DVLA don't you, TFL will have to fucking wait. Just write them a letter telling them what the crack is. Its a perfectly reasonable story and they'll just have to chew it.

 

How long go did you send the logbook off? Presumably when you sold the car you didnt get the guy to sign a receipt or owt.

[Jim Bell]

I don't see how they can still fine you.

 

Heavily. It seems.

[Jim Bell]

You just need this letter from DVLA don't you, TFL will have to fucking wait. Just write them a letter telling them what the crack is. Its a perfectly reasonable story and they'll just have to chew it.

 

How long go did you send the logbook off? Presumably when you sold the car you didnt get the guy to sign a receipt or owt.

 

Sent the logbook off the same day (day before fine incurred, V5 Dated correctly). Got the confirmation slip from the dvla, but that doesnt show dates, so is useless.

[plasticvandan]

Dvla will have the information on what date the vehicle keeper changed,this info can also be found on some of the online vehicle check services.

[autofive]

they cant fine you without taking you to court, they cant send it out to baliffs without sending you to court. tell them to wait or inforrm you when the court hearing is.

 

go down to that there london, win the case, get massive expenses for your trouble and make a 'justice 'speech on the steps of the old bailey

 

or

 

just tell them your awaiting evidence and it doesnt matter what they threaten you will not be paying, as they are wrong and you are right

[Faker]

They are calling your bluff. If you have genuinely sold the car, and the V5 has been sent off, they will have to go through the DVA to get the new keeper details. Don't worry. They may commence proceedings but they will loose in the end.

[Jim Bell]

,this info can also be found on some of the online vehicle check services.

 

Cheers fella. Any idea which ones?

 

Anyone in trade have access to that kind of info if I pass the reg number?

[Danblez]

Pepipoo.com

[overrun]

Shit through their letterbox.

[Albert Ross]

Do you live close to where the fine was issued? Unlucky.  Did you have business close to that location? Unluckier still. If not, you might be able to prove (by Debit card receipts from a shop in a distant town within 10 minutes of the ticket issue/Works clock card records/CCTV in the Police Cells etc) that you were nowhere near the scene of the alleged offence.

[Jim Bell]

Do you live close to where the fine was issued? Unlucky.  Did you have business close to that location? Unluckier still. If not, you might be able to prove (by Debit card receipts from a shop in a distant town within 10 minutes of the ticket issue/Works clock card records/CCTV in the Police Cells etc) that you were nowhere near the scene of the alleged offence.

 

Makes no difference. Registered keeper is legally liable, it seems.

 

I live in Newcastle, and have never been to London. Accept for twice. On the train.

[dollywobbler]

This is one reason that I like to give a receipt with a car. I put the date AND time of transaction, so I do have some evidence if something like this occurs. Bit stabledoor/horse, but I still think you have plenty of grounds for saying 'piss off!' If they do issue proceedings, as has been mentioned, you WILL have evidence to back up your claim.

[Jim Bell]

This is one reason that I like to give a receipt with a car. I put the date AND time of transaction, so I do have some evidence if something like this occurs.

 

That is good advice.

 

I normally do. Not consistantly enough though.

[chaseracer]

Registered keeper is legally liable, it seems...

And you were not the registered keeper at the time of the alleged offence, evidence for which you are still awaiting from another government agency.

 

Just keep TefLon informed, despite their automated threats, and - as mentioned above - see them in court, if necessary. This will not happen.

 

Courage, mon brave...

[londonm]

Call up TFL at St James Park, get details of someone in charge of Penalty notices and write to them that you will not be paying said fine on the grounds you mention. Explain you will take it all the way to appeal via http://www.patas.gov.uk/ . TFL never appear at these tribunals, knowing full well they will most likely lose, and a judgement will be made in your favour. You should have your letter by then to prove it. TFL also have to follow procedures with you now, as you are their 'customer/client'. Seeing as you're now in a automated loop, they'll be in trouble if they send bailiffs when you have put them on notice of appeal.

 

If you're self employed, tell them you'll charge them for lost work time sorting this out also.

[Faker]

they cant fine you without taking you to court, they cant send it out to baliffs without sending you to court. tell them to wait or inforrm you when the court hearing is.

go down to that there london, win the case, get massive expenses for your trouble and make a 'justice 'speech on the steps of the old bailey

or

just tell them your awaiting evidence and it doesnt matter what they threaten you will not be paying, as they are wrong and you are right

I had a similar situation a few years ago. There is a patch of land that runs between the footpath and my garden wall. It was tarmac'd over by the previous owner, but is still my propery. It does look like a huge pavement though. I had a corsa sport for Autotests parked on this ground on a sorn. Low and behold it got clamped for being on the public highway with no tax. I called the campers to tell them of their error, and was told to speak with the DVA. So..... I called the DVA. " I'm sorry sir. We hear this story all the time. If your car was parked in an area with public access then you will have to pay the fine". I told them I'm not paying. They said they would take me to court. Dead on then, bring it on!! I went to the DOE and local council, both gave me letters to confirm that they are not responsible for maintenance or repair of the area, and I went to land registry and got the site plan or the property, all at my expense I might add. A year later I got the summons for court. So I went with my solicitor who approached the DVA representative with all my documents. Guess what.... They withdrew from court and stated thy would review the matter back at the office. Solicitor got an email stating they were not taking the matter any further. As if they were doing me a favour!! So.... I attempted to get my expenses back from the DVA, and for the car that had been crushed long ago. "Sorry sir that is a matter for the independant clamping company, it was their mistake, not ours". Any time I spoke with the campers I got.. " Sorry, we work on behalf of the DVA, and follow their strick guidelines. You will have to take it up with them". Back and forth for a while, and apparently all I was entitled to was the scrap weigh in value for the car, not the retail value. Bastards!! I eventually gave up, which really was my loss! £800 car, land registry fees and various letters, and the solicitor, all told I was well over a grand out of pocket.

[autofive]

but you didnt go to court and fight it

 

that was your mistake. if you settle out of court you dont get your expenses.

 

you should have refused to give them a disclosure of evidence and presented your case befor e court of your peers.

[Jim Bell]

Pepipoo.com

Cheers man.

 

Got some great info back from there,

 

And I quote.

 

 

 

"The PCN/NTO you got should have told you to appeal within a timescale, you wasted time writing for no reason to the DVLA you are now liable for the PCN and have no grounds to appeal.

For future reference if you get further PCNs you follow the instructions and tick the box, 'I was not the keeper/owner at the time of the contravention' and send it back with the name of the person you sold it to."

 

Just what I fucking need.

[Faker]

but you didnt go to court and fight it

that was your mistake. if you settle out of court you dont get your expenses.

you should have refused to give them a disclosure of evidence and presented your case befor e court of your peers.

I didn't settle out of court, the DVA withdrew the case for a review. I ended up getting ballsed about for ages. My solicitor told me that I'd have to take the parent company, some firm on the mainland to court, costing me more money which I didn't have at the time. I stand by my last comment. They are all Bastards!!

[Novanick1]

i sense a argument brewing 

[Station]

Mr Shitpeas, ring them or contact them some other way. I easily got out of paying a fine because they did me twice for one - although I paid late, so actually did owe 50 quid extra. They just cancelled it. I still have the letter. They are only clerks editing out pre-written letters.

 

Any more letters and just say 'GO F*CK YOURSELVES' and request to see them in court or something.

I'm not a trained lawyer, so my advice may not be 'sound'.

[autofive]

I didn't settle out of court, the DVA withdrew the case for a review. I ended up getting ballsed about for ages. My solicitor told me that I'd have to take the parent company, some firm on the mainland to court, costing me more money which I didn't have at the time. I stand by my last comment. They are all Bastards!!

 

 

ahh i see

 

sly bastards

 

so far better to 'ring the court with mystery illness' on the first appearence then, waste some of their time.

[wuvvum]

Pepipoo isn't always right.  It may be true that you can't use TfL's in-house appeals process any more due to the 28-day deadline, but that doesn't mean that you've magically become legally liable for the car being parked on the double reds after you sold it.  Tell 'em to go fuck themselves - chances are they will just send you daft threatening letters, before instructing various two-bit debt collectors / "solicitors" to send you similar letters, and eventually they'll go away.  If they do take you to court they won't have a hope - their 28-day deadline for appealing is a TfL policy and nothing more.

 

E&OE, IANAL etc (although I do have a law degree and some experience of fighting these kinds of twats in court, so some or more of the above may be accurate).

[Jim Bell]

More advice:

 

"This sounds like you have a charge certificate. And you cannot challenge a charge certificate. Please post up a scrubbed scan for confirmation.

 

Standing advice, in such circumstances, is to wait for the next stage which is an Order For Recovery, in your case £195 + £7 = £202), and then complete and submit the Witness Statement that will be enclosed.

 

The question then arises as to what grounds can you legitimately claim on the WS? You received a Charge Certificate because you received a postal Penalty Charge Notice and you were legally obliged to either pay it or submit a written challenge within the specified time-frames and you did neither.

 

By phoning the Enforcement Authority and not submitting a written challenge against the Penalty Charge Notice you have effectively shot yourself in the foot. Legally you now have nowhere to go. There is no option on the Witness Statement that you can legitimately claim.

 

So I suggest that you write to TFL, PDQ, and tell them that you "had ceased to be the owner prior to the date on which the alleged contravention occurred" and that therefore you should not be held liable for the penalty charge.

 

If you have the name & address of the new owner then include that information. Point out that you are late with your challenge against the Penalty Charge Notice because you relied on the advice of their agent to wait until you had confirmation from the DVLA. You now realise that this was erroneous. Give the time & date of the call and the name of the agent if you have it.

 

Point out that it would not be in the interests of justice to continue to enforce the PCN as you were not the owner of the vehicle on the relevant date. Politely ask them to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

 

Something along the above lines. Be aware the TFL are no longer under any obligation on consider any representation from you. Keep it simple, short and concise. Make a clear point about the injustice of continuing to enforce given the circumstances. Let's hope that they either accept your representation; or reject and send you an adjudication appeal form."

[Jim Bell]

I'm posting these in this thread in case they are of any use to anyone in the future.

[Station]

"At the end of the day", you didn't commit the crime so why should you need 28 days to appeal?

It sounds like a rule made up by the company (which is probably a quango) that doesn't really stick to normal court rulings, and I reckon if it went to court they'd crap their pants and withdraw.

[Tetleysmooth]

It's all about revenue raising.

Mrs Tetley and myself are currently doing battle with Havering council.

My Mrs frequently visits our daughter, who lives in a very narrow cul-de-sac. The only way to safely park is by putting two wheels on the pavement. Everyone does it, even council vehicles when they come to work on the flats.

So, one day in June, a Saturday I think, when everone's at home, the council send their camera car round to the cul-de-sac to do a blitz. Everybody, including residents were sent a PCN. We weren't. The first we knew about this is when we received the second letter demanding the princely sum of £165.We have got 2 local MP's involved, and guess what, within the last week or so, the council have painted white boxes on the paths allowing people to park half on and half off.

The more the local councils can get off of us, the less they have to ask the Government for.

We were about a week paying our Council tax in January,but it was paid, that resulted in a fine amounting to over £150. It's all getting very silly and nasty.

Don't pay it, fight it.