Lancia Y10 1.3 GTIe - Why will it not start?

[phil_lihp]

I can confirm it certainly is, ridiculously comfortable too! Goes like stink as well.

[tooSavvy]

3rd rate celebrity endorsement of 'Y10' flingability.....

 

I fitted a Y10 A.R.B. to my 750FIRE panda 》》》No longer going straight over wet miniroundabouts!

 

Bestest mod evva

 

 

TS

[philibusmo]

I can't remember seeing you on Saturday Skizz, but then a Skoda Yeti is not really a car I would be on the look out for. Glad you like my Fester though, it did the run to Glasgow and back over two days without a single complaint.

 

In between heading off to The Independent People's Republic of Scotland I have been bombing around in the Lancia and it has been working remarkably well. I still need to complete putting the interior back in, as it is currently rather noisy and there is a small tapping noise coming from the back under acceleration or over certain bumps which will be investigated shortly but otherwise nothing untoward has occurred.

 

 Next stop: Shitefest in 10 days time.

[phil_lihp]

Excellent news, do bear in mind however that it's a 1980s Lancia and therefore a package of odd noises were factory-fitted and should ideally be retained for originality.

[hairnet]

 

and there is a small tapping noise coming from the back under acceleration or over certain bumps

 

 Next stop: Shitefest in 10 days time.

 

oh no you bolted the helping elf to the floorpan

 

10 days ALL THAT

[Skizzer]

I can't remember seeing you on Saturday Skizz, but then a Skoda Yeti is not really a car I would be on the look out for.

None taken

 

If you did Glasgow and back for the weekend in a flat front Fiesta, I can imagine some of the blander details would be a bit hazy.

 

As lots of people have said, can't wait to see the YBother at Shitefest.

[philibusmo]

As many of you will already know, the Y10 made it to SHITEFEST 2014 and was untroubled on the way up and all Saturday getting blasted around the Welsh countryside by various hooligans.

This achievement I am immensely pleased with – I was very pleased with the little Lancia, the fresh MOT certificate and how well it managed the journey.I would like to thank the following people, as without you this would not have been possible:

 

Kevfromwales – for finding the scrap Y10 in Wrexham which donated its sills and various bits of trim – helping to strip it one damp Sunday morning, and then going back the next morning to retrieve the last few parts before it was cubed. I would probably still be fabricating new sills without you.

 

Corsavior – for turning up to help strip the above mentioned Y10 and succeeding only in providing a petrol generator with no petrol and breaking the dashboard in half.

 

Vantman – For picking up an eBay spares haul sat on the opposite side of the country, storing it and then putting up with my disorganised collection plans. These spares have been invaluable in getting it running.

 

Phil_lhip – For turning up for a day and helping me get all the last few jobs that needed doing for the MOT done. If you hadn’t arrived I would still be wrestling with the anti-roll bar and the gearbox would never have any new oil.

 

Everyone Else – for the chivvying and encouragement,I doubt I would have had the motivation to get it done without you lot goading me on.

 

Now for the not such great news, as many of you will also know, on the morning we were all due to leave Shitefest it wouldn’t start and had to be bump started. This left me with a 170 mile journey where I couldn’t turn the engine off – it would have been easy if there hadn’t been multiple failures to proceed.

 

First the brake caliper began to fall off:

 

Then the same brake caliper began to cease if I had to apply the brakes particularly heavily and could only been freed off by dousing it in water too cool it down – which it needed doing a grand total of 16 times during the journey. The best thing about this was that there was a £10 note in one of the laybys I had to stop in.

 

Also the wheel arch liner fell out:

 

I had a very busy week at work so haven’t had the opportunity to work on or drive the Lancia, so this weekend I set about curing its ills. I started by freeing off the brake calliper which was very easy, then I changed the starter motor for an as new spare I had in the loft. This was a bit of a pain in the arse but was complete in about an hour and a half. Tuning the ignition caused the starter motor to burst into life with more vigour and vim than ever before, turning the engine over at break neck speed.

 

However there is a problem, no matter how quickly the engine is turning over, it isn’t firing. I have spent all day today, with my Dad who is a bit better with electrics than me going over every component we can think of and we just cannot get the thing to fire.

 

We have found that with the ignition on the fuel pump whirrs, and the vacuum sensor puts out 12v but only for a couple of seconds. After this, once the starter is turned the engine turns over merrily but there is no fuel being pumped through the injectors and there is no spark at all. This has had us completely stumped all day trying to chase where and why there is no electricity.

 

We have so far tried changing the Bosch Jetronic LE3 ECU with two different spares, with no change. The Magnetti Marelli Digiplex 2 ignition module has been changed for a spare. The coil changed, and various voltages and resistances measured but to no avail. We have also swapped and changed all relevant seeming relays but we do not know what all of them in the drivers foot well do. It didn’t help that we were using the wiring diagram for a Lancia Y10 Turbo which has a slightly different set up as it was the closest we could find – these 1.3 GTie are hardly common.

 

If anyone here has good knowledge of electrics I would be exceedingly happy to hear your suggestions and answer any questions you have to try and resolve this. Additionally if anyone know a good auto-electrician in the South West who would be able to help then it was also be much appreciated. I am at the very limit of my knowledge and completely stumped as to what the problem might be, so any help that anyone can give would be amazing.

[phil_lihp]

I feel it's necessary again to apologise for being so wrapped up in my own little world on the Sunday and leaving you on your own, I feel really bad about it!  Your journey home might have been a bit easier with a support car.

 

In return - or to ease my conscience -  I'm actually in the area on Saturday late morning so I'm happy to pop over and lend a hand wherever I can for the remainder of the day - I am no auto electrician but as before can lend a spare pair of hands.

 

Two things I can think of trying - one - as it worked (sort of) on the old starter, have you tried putting that one back in and seeing if it fires?  IE. on the logic that it started with the old motor (albeit only when the motor worked) but with the new one it does not, I'm sure you have but have you checked all the fuses, and lastly does it bump start?

[dome]

Do these things use a crank sensor?

[mat_the_cat]

It sounds like the engine doesn't know it's turning therefore not firing the injectors. LE-Jetronic doesn't have a crank sensor though but relies on distributor rotation to know engine speed. The lack of sparks also points that way too, as it's the common factor between the ignition and injection systems. There's a Hall effect sensor in the distributor so may be worth checking both the feed and signal wires from that.

[Jon]

I didn't know of the existence of an engine crank sensor or what it did, until we had random acts of nothingness (either cutting out on run, or just not starting) on my then girlfriend's (now wife) 1990 Uno 70sx ie 1.4. I got a diagnosis from AA of ECU or crank sensor issues, so assumed the worse and scoured around for an MED439m Digiplex box of tricks, eventually getting one second hand for £30. Of course, it turned out to be the crank sensor, which cured all before terminal rot put a kibosh on everything.

 

I know mat_the_cat doesn't think yours has a sensor and I'm not even sure what size engine yours has (I'm guessing a 1.3?), so that lot could be of no use to you. However, I had the foresight to keep both the original Marelli Digiplex units (original and spare) when our Uno was scrapped and they're knocking about somewhere at my folks house. Yours for postage if they'd be of any use?

[Jon]

What a dumbass - just read the thread title - 1.3 it'll be, then....

[mat_the_cat]

I should point out that I know nothing about the Y10, but standard LE-Jetronic doesn't use a crank sensor. I suppose it's possible that Lancia fitted a crank sensor, and halved the signal speed from that into the distributor sensor ECU input, just for laughs!

[twosmoke300]

back to basics , is the dizzy turning? Is the cambelt ok?

[hairnet]

pointed crazy plastic loving electrical guru genius at this thread........

 

he said

 

The EFI is driven to a very large degree by the ignition pulses - without them, nothing will happen on the fuel side. Concentrate on getting a spark, rather than on the EFI; chances are that if you get a spark, the EFI will work again.

[M'coli]

I'd concentrate on getting a spark too. Once you have that, speed signal should be returned to the ECU and fuel should follow etc.. An old Passat I owned had the problem of sparks but no speed signal, hence no fuelling.

[philibusmo]

Right, it's about time this had an update, along with me asking for some advise to cure the latest problem.

 

Now, you will be glad to know (and probably already realise that the issue that stopped it working shortly after shitefest was rectified. Contrary to Matt's thoughts, this Lancia does have a crank sensor, which was faulty, replaced and all was well again for many months. The faulty sensor was causing a complete lack of fuel and sparks, when cleaned up it made the splutter and almost run, once replaced it was perfect.

 

These Months were spent belting all around Devon at great speed with a massive grin on my face and solving a few niggles such as fixing the central locking and the rear wash wipe. It has been an absolute joy to use. It was at its most fun when we went to a track day at Castle Combe where I took the Y10, my bother took his Demio and because his MR2 was broken my Dad nabbed my Supra (which I have since sold to him) and we blasted around having a wonderful time.

 

We did feel a bit out of place as there was some seriously fast stuff going around the course which quite clearly was worth 10x the total value of all our cars, but the Lancia and Demio, while slower on the straights was out cornering some quick machinery. Following is some of the more shite worthy examples racing that day:

This only ended when I managed to rip all the tread from one of my front tyres followed a minor front right suspension collapse when a couple of bolts (which I don’t think I’d tightened properly) were shaken loose on the curbs. This was probably for the best as the Supra had cooked its brakes within the first couple of laps and my brother had been caught out by lift off over steer in the Demio and span off into the weeds which then got stuck in his wheels and began lightly smouldering.

 

 

The suspension issue was easily resolved* by swapping the now bald tyre for the spare and then driving just far enough away from the track to not look suspicious and calling the AA to come and fix it. It turned out the perfect place to stop was a rather nice pub, best place I have ever broken down, certainly beats the hell out of the hard should of the M5.

 

 

With this all fixed properly, it has been my daily transport or the past 5 months and done a brilliant job. The headlamps are a bit pathetic, even with Osram Nightbreakers and it’s not the most relaxing drive, but you always reach your destination on time and with a huge grin.

 

Now here comes the problem, as you may have gathered from a couple of other threads, I am off to Australia and the surrounding area later this month for an as yet unknown length of time, however it is likely to be about a year. I didn’t want to sell the Lancia as I like it far too much, but neither did I want to see it just sat looking forlorn on my parents drive so I decided to set going an Autoshite rental scheme, full details of which can be found in this thread:

 

http://autoshite.com/topic/18461-lancia-y10-trusted-shiter-loan-scheme/

Phil_lihp was due to pick it up as the first custodian just before the end of December. I had noticed that the au belt was looking a bit past its best and was being caught by a slightly sharp edge on the cam cover, so I set about replacing it and to do the cam belt at the same time as it is unknown when it was last done and it was only one more nut that needed to be removed to do it.

 

This turned out to be a right pain in the arse because as usual it was the crank pulley that needed to be removed to access the cam belt and it was murder tight, but also required a huge 38mm socket. I ended up buying an impact gun to get it off and found a slightly creepy army surplus store in the back end of an industrial estate that happened to have a 38mm socket and zipped it off no problem.

 

The main problem when trying to do this job is access as it is tighter than a V6 Avantime in this engine bay. However I persevered, put tippex timing mark on the cam and crank pulleys, pulled the belt off, changed the tensioner as well and put the new belt on with the new tensioner putting up a bit of a fight. Once on I turned it over twice by hand and there was no resistance other than compression in the cylinders then put everything back together apart from leaving the crank sensor disconnected and turned it over on the starter motor and it wizzed around exactly like normal. During this time, Phil had arrived to pick it up and helped putting the last few parts back together.

 

 

With the crank sensor reconnected we both expected it to fire straight up, but it didn’t. It would turn over, then begin to fire, then seemingly create a spark at completely the wrong moment when a piston was still coming up, briefly stopping the starter motor. There is fuel getting to the engine and if a spark plug is pulled out it will spark if pressed against an earth and the engine tuned over. By this point it was going to get dark and Phil needed a car of some description to get home as he had arrived by train. He took the Princess for a run and it was excellent, then it wasn't as when we got back it suddenly de-primed its own fuel pump and failed to proceed, so he took my Mk1 Fiesta instead. I still need to get the Lancia fixed soon though, so I can drive it up to him, swap it with the Fiesta and then drive that back.

 

Our first thought was that the crank sensor had died again, but replacing it with a new one has had exactly the same symptoms. The crank usually sits in the little bracket shown in the below picture between the timing belt tensioner and the inner wing, and read the bumps on the crank pulley which split the edge of the pulley into quarters. There are three single bumps and one double bump which is the one pictured. The pulley is impossible to put on the wrong way round or incorrectly as it is keyed to the crank.

 

 

This is the main feed to the Magneti Marelli Digiplex 2 which is effectively an ignition module and adjusts the timing of the distributor automatically. This also gets readings from other sensors such as a temperature sender and the throttle position sensor but will function with these disconnected.

 

 

There is also this box, the Bosch Jetronic kerjigger which controls the fuel injection end of things once it has had an input from the Digiplex.I don’t think that this is at fault as there is definitely fuel getting into the engine and the issue seems to be incorrect timing of sparks due to the engine stopping suddenly and jolting when turned over.

 

 

I will stress that it only does this under compression and the engine can be turned over endlessly without any problems if fuel and sparks are not being supplied. Additionally I have tried taking out the spark plugs one by one and trying to start it on three cylinders and the same symptoms occur no matter which plug is out so it is across all cylinders, or at least two.

 

I have tried replacing the crank sensor, digiplex and jetronic box and there has been no change. I have set the exactly correct gap between the sensor and the crank pulley using a feeler gauge and shims and no change. I have tried it with the belt covers removed and there does not appear to be any problems and my timing marks still line up perfectly. I have cleaned up the earth points around the ignition components to no avail and have even tried towing it behind a transit to bump start it, but it won’t be bump started.

 

I am now completely stumped, so was hoping one of you may have a bright idea on this. The only thing I can now think of is that somehow the crank or cam ended up being turned by 360 degrees while I was changing the belt without me noticing and is now firing when the pistons are at their lowest point. But I have no idea how that would have happened, am 99% certain that it is timed up correctly on the belt and surely it would not fire on any cylinders ever if this was the case.

 

The components disturbed by the belt change were as follows if it helps:

Battery negative disconnected

Air box and air filter removed

Throttle position sensor disconnected

Bosch Jetronic box removed

Cam pulley cover removed

Crank pulley plastic guard removed

Water pump pulley removed

Alternator belt removed

Lower timing belt cover removed

Crank sensor removed

Engine mount disconnected and engine lowered on one side

Crank pulley removed

Timing belt tensioner replaced

Timing belt replaced

Components then replaced in reverse order

 

I will also try replacing the coil tomorrow, but I really am clutching at straws at this point. The complete lack of change to any of the symptoms really is baffling me.

 

 

Help?

[twosmoke300]

Few thoughts . are are 100 percent sure the crank pulley can't go on another way ? Not a double keyway or anything daft ? Has the pulley been damaged or the timing pips knocked ?

Is the cambelt lwr pulley on the crank keyed on ? Or does it freewheel like some Renaults ?

Is there any chance the sensor holder has been put on upside down or anything ?

[philibusmo]

Few thoughts . are are 100 percent sure the crank pulley can't go on another way ? Not a double keyway or anything daft ? Has the pulley been damaged or the timing pips knocked ?

Is the cambelt lwr pulley on the crank keyed on ? Or does it freewheel like some Renaults ?

Is there any chance the sensor holder has been put on upside down or anything ?

The pulley looks in perfect order and is pretty hefty lump so would take a heavy knock to damage it. It's only a single key so can't go on incorrectly.

 

The cam belt lower pulley I haven't actually checked if it is keyed. I would expect it is, but I suppose I could be out by a tooth or so if I managed to move it and the crank when putting the new belt on and then only moved the pulley back to line up with the timing mark. I'll check this as well tomorrow, but don't expect it will be the issue as it is an interference engine so would have expected a piston and valve interface to have occurred if this had happened.

 

The sensor holder wasn't removed, just the sensor and is sufficiently solid to not have been bent at any stage.

[twosmoke300]

Ignoring your tip ex marks do the manufacturers marks line up or tools fit ?

[philibusmo]

Ignoring your tip ex marks do the manufacturers marks line up or tools fit ?

It's difficult to say. The cam pulley has a TDC mark on it which can be lined up, but there isn't any manufacturer markings or tools for the crank pulley. The Lancia work shop manual that I have for it (which is amazingly shit, it's amazing any of them ever got fixed) advise to line up the cam pulley with the TDCC markings and then take a metal dust cover off the gearbox bell housing and then fit a special flywheel locking tool (which I don't have) before removing the belt, then keep the cam at TDC and keep the flywheel locking tool in while the new belt is fitted.

 

I suppose that if I set the cam to TDC then the crank pulley should have on of its bumps just a smidge forward of the crank sensor as it should create a spark just before TDC?

[twosmoke300]

Can you put a blunt screwdriver or similar down a plug hole to find tdc? This assumes it times up on tdc. Some engines don't ( k series and 2.0 tddi come to mind)

 

Another slightly off topic thing , is the tensioner pulley on the " tight" side of the belt ? Very unusual the 1.7 Isuzu is the only other one I can think of

[Asimo]

Does this engine have a distributor, four coils or a pair of double ended coils?

 

If it has double ended coils then it can't be firing on the wrong stroke as it will fire on both of them.

 

If it has one coil+ distributor or four coils the ignition box must be getting a signal from the distributor or camshaft somehow, in which case camshaft may have got 360 degrees out with respect to the distributor / sensor.

In which case swap pairs of plug leads for a quick check.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I reckon something is wrong with how you've timed it when its gone back together. It must be. If you've got sparks and pez, which you have, then the only thing that can be wrong is timing and if its firing against itself then it must be that. Is anything driven off that intermediate pulley? If so what? Does it have any sort of mechanical dizzy with a rotor arm or does it have coil packs?

[philibusmo]

Can you put a blunt screwdriver or similar down a plug hole to find tdc? This assumes it times up on tdc. Some engines don't ( k series and 2.0 tddi come to mind)

 

Another slightly off topic thing , is the tensioner pulley on the " tight" side of the belt ? Very unusual the 1.7 Isuzu is the only other one I can think of

Can you put a blunt screwdriver or similar down a plug hole to find tdc? This assumes it times up on tdc. Some engines don't ( k series and 2.0 tddi come to mind)

 

Another slightly off topic thing , is the tensioner pulley on the " tight" side of the belt ? Very unusual the 1.7 Isuzu is the only other one I can think of

I could pop a screwdriver down the spark plug hole at either end of the engine easily enough so I'll check by that tomorrow, the belt is on the floppy side of the belt, without it there, it would be all over the place.

 

Does this engine have a distributor, four coils or a pair of double ended coils?

 

If it has double ended coils then it can't be firing on the wrong stroke as it will fire on both of them.

 

If it has one coil+ distributor or four coils the ignition box must be getting a signal from the distributor or camshaft somehow, in which case camshaft may have got 360 degrees out with respect to the distributor / sensor.

In which case swap pairs of plug leads for a quick check.

It's a single coil with a distributor. I have just thought that I did remove the spark plugs at either end to check their condition while I had the belt off to check their condition as I didn't have the correct tensioner and had to wait a day for the correct one to arrive. I am as certain as possible that I reconnected their leads the right way but can't be sure that raccoons didn't swap them around when I wasn't watching or something. It's a long shot but it might just be it. I'll also have a look at distributor, make sure the rotor arm hasn't fallen apart or been stolen or something.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

yeah HT leads is a good call actually

[twosmoke300]

Mr boll may have a point. Does it have another toothed wheel driven by the belt ? This may drive the dizzy and therefore should be timed. Its hard to tell with the pics if it has this or not.

Back to my tensioner question , does this engine turn anticlockwise like a Honda ?

[alf892]

Given the work done and the fact it fires at the wrong time it sounds like the ignition timing is 180 out.......easiest fix would be to move the plug leads round 180 to compensate.

 

Although it defies reason as you did not move the cam

[twosmoke300]

http://www.mister-auto.ie/en/cam-belt-kit/lancia-y10-156-1-3-i-e-fire-72hp_v2652_g307.html

 

Is this your set up?

 

The pulley marked op is the oil pump drive and the dizzy is often driven off this and needs to be timed. Of course it could be driven off the cam in which case ignore me.

[alf892]

Just reread.......and Mr Boll is (unless dizzy is driven off end of cam.) Looking at your pics I can just see the dizzy which looks nearly upright (?) so must be driven via intermediate pulley.