Bus Shite

[Eyersey1234]

MCV's are Egyptian? Well I never, you live and learn, I always thought they were a re-incarnation of MCW.

 

As a non-bus person (driver or passenger) I've admired EYMS's MCV's from afar - they look both modern and smart to me

 

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They look smart when new but the build quality is terrible. The depot I work at had a couple of Evolutions when new and as you drove down the road you could see the windows moving around, we were always amazed they never fell out.

[Eyersey1234]

Through six degrees of seperation they're very, very distantly related to Marshalls at Cambridge.

Very distantly.

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After Marshall bus failed they bought the rights to the Capital design. Marshall Bus had bought the rights to the Duple Dateline body after Duple closed and facelifted it as the Capital. This in turn became the MCV Evolution.

[Inspector Morose]

You missed a step. Marshall bought the rights to the Dartline body from Carlyle when they went bump. It was Carlyle who bought it from Duple.

Marshall. The only bus builder with its own airport (the rather sublime Art Deco Cambridge airport). They were quite forward in their technology (aircraft style honeycomb style sandwich interfloors to reduce height but keeping strength) but their styling was a little hit and miss.

[willswitchengage]

Carousel Travel of somewhere in Oxfordshire have MCVs low-entries sat on Merc chassis - only a 12 litre engine. They must be fun to drive.

 

I don't know how much they 'share' with Dundee but the catchy named National Express West Midlands I found had a brilliant fleet when I used to live in Birmingham. Phasing out the last of the Metrobi after almost 30 years in service (they kept suffix-reg buses in service up until at least 2008 when I moved there), the brilliant if not a bit over engineered Merc O405s and even a few of the aforementioned Volvo B10Ls. Nothing boring. Surprised the Spectras are being 'dissed' here - I would have though what is basically a Metrobus with DAF hardware would be dead reliable. Reading Buses have just inherited a few ex-London DB250s and the engine and gearbox combo definitely gives them 'presence'.

 

On the subject of destination blinds Hanover Displays has been a rare British manufacturing success story. I like the idea though that the growing use of rear-facing displays serves mainly to serve prospective passengers the new that 'this is the bus that you have just missed'.

 

Pub quiz question. Which were in front line service longer - Glasgow's Ailsas or Birmingham's Mertrobuses?

[Noel Tidybeard]

Speaking of bus stuff...

 

Something I kick myself for not grabbing when I had the chance (actually when a couple of the aforementioned B10BLEs went for scrap) was a destination blind. Was offered one twice, but turned it down at the time under the stupid common sense argument of "I don't have room for it."

 

Seeing a flipdot display being used at a convention a couple of weeks ago poked it back into my mind though, and I do now have somewhere to put one...but holy balls they change hands for utterly insane money on eBay. Especially given how many must get chucked into the breakers every year.

 

Anyone able to get hold of (or know a sensible source of) a flipdot destination blind? Ideally with the controller, though they at least seem to be reasonably readily available. Would rather have something from Hanover than Brite-Tec as I'd like it to actually work...

 

Seriously can't believe what people are selling them at as executive office adornments!

 

you could try joining this bookface group (if you arent already) and ask Tony Hunter https://www.facebook.com/groups/411584718880057/

[Zelandeth]

you could try joining this bookface group (if you arent already) and ask Tony Hunter https://www.facebook.com/groups/411584718880057/

Facebook is somewhere I'm not on I'm afraid. The fact that it immediately started trying to reconnect me with people from my secondary school who I've no intention of ever speaking to again, given that they came very close to causing me to take my own life back then.

 

Still no idea how it came up with those suggestions given I've never communicated with them electronically, and Facebook has been given neither my real name, any historic location information or permission to use any of my contacts (not that it would get anywhere as I've never emailed any of them).

 

I expected flipdot displays to be readily available cheaply given they're mostly being outed for LED ones now, hence my surprise at three figure price tags on eBay.

[busmansholiday]

TWM spent a fortune on having the rear ends of their Metrobuses rebuilt by Marshalls (my uncle was a designer there) to extend their working lives. I seem to remember they were rebuilt in stainless steel and fully stress analysed. Marshalls were doing about 5 a week. Hence they needed to keep them to get their money out of them.

 

When MCW went tits Optare bought the rights to the Metrobus and Metrorider. The Spectre used the Metrobus design of running units.

[busmansholiday]

With flipfots, what do the Barnsley bus breakers charge?

[quicksilver]

I read somewhere that TWM/NXWM's accountants have some odd ideas when it comes to depreciation and book value of their assets. That leads them to do strange things like take relatively modern buses out of service and store them for years instead of selling them straightaway, then when they do eventually sell them they're outdated and haven't moved for ages so they're pretty much worthless. Probably also explains why they kept the Metros going for so long as the rebuilds added to their book value or something.

 

Anyone remember that single-deck Fleetline (the 'Baseball Bat') they built? It wasn't an accident victim as you might think, but was done deliberately as they had too many double-deckers and needed more midibuses, so they thought they could save money by making one into the other. Eventually they figured out it was cheaper to just buy new Dennis Darts, but not before inflicting this bizarre conversion on Fleetline 6956. Happily it survives at Wythall and I've actually ridden on it.

West Midlands WDA 956T by Adam Floyd, on Flickr

[Felly Magic]

On Faceache there was a vid of an ALX400 of NXWM doing what a lot of modern plastic does, and burns, they are running some pretty decrepit looking deckers still in Brum and the surrounding areas, and wasted paint on a Trident, painting it in Wolverhampton livery, when in reality, the bus should have gone for scrap. The problems with Spectras was twofold, Optare's comedy build quality, and DAF, DAF have been notorious at stopping parts supplies not long after they delete a model from their range, the 8 and a bit litre engine had no torque, and was hopeless when nailed to a Voith 3 speed, and the aged GKN/Kirkstall axle caused quite severe 'issues' with headroom on the lower deck. The dasboard warning light bingo board would always have something permanently lit, normally something not even fitted to a bus, like tail lift warning. Not a lot of people know that under the skin, the Streetshite is a VDL, aka DAF Citea, which explains lots, and the Streetdeck is also a VDL, and so was the Borismasturbator, which most are now running 100% diesel as the hybrid drive system could not cope with stop start London traffic, and the batteries would not charge, and I notice the upper deck AC has been removed, and opening windows have been fitted. 

 

Cardiff Bus hit the headlines last week, when a bus decided to roll down a hill, and ended up embedded on a traffic island, the bus was one of the Citaros, and has severe damage. All is not well with CB, they lost in the last financial year nigh on £2 million, all suppliers have put them on stop, and buses are in a real state, a few weeks back a Scania Omnicity broke it's back whilst in service, and the East Wanks/Darwen/Optere Olympus Scanias can barely drag themselves up to 40 now, staff morale is in the real shite, as the company is basically on the brink of collapse, it is only a matter of time before the firm is offloaded by the council

[cms206]

Birmingham's MCWs lived longer; the eldest native Glasgow Ailsa in service at the end was A11 (CSU 219X), though similarly aged second hand Ailsas A136/7 (HSF 86/91X) were also in use until that point. Larkfield's were all withdrawn overnight when the 54-plate Geminis entered use, Knightswood's lasted about six months longer from memory as they were seatbelted but they had all gone by about June 2005.

 

I'd need to double check but I think there were still around 40ish running in 2005.

 

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[cms206]

Who doesn't like pictures?

 

A11 at the Pollok Centre in August 2004, A27 at Govan Bus Station in April 2004, A136 at the Pollok Centre in July 2004 and A137 at Govan in August 2004.

 

I was, thankfully, a mad bus spotter and I took SHITLOADS of pictures at the time these Ailsas were fizzling out... Glasgow's been dull as fuck since these and the ST-class Gardner Tigers died.

 

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[cms206]

I made brief mention of the ST-class; in 2003 several STs were outshopped in 'Barbie 2'; from memory ST365 was the first outshopped, though ST339, ST347 and several of the later Cumbernauld based D-reg examples were also treated.

 

ST347 in particular was an odd one; it had been a long standing member of the training fleet but during 2003 it was rebuilt and reinstated to the main fleet for it's last eighteen months or so.

 

I was a huge fan of these Leyland Tigers and I was thoroughly disappointed when they were withdrawn. Drivetrain was a 5-speed fully automatic Leyland transmission driven by Gardner's 180bhp 6HLXB diesel (model TRBLXB/2RH), though the first ten of these Alexander-bodied examples (OUS 11-20Y) were Leyland L11-powered (TRBL11/2R), later upgraded to turbocharged Leyland TL11.

 

More pictures, all taken between May '03 and April '04.

 

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[busmansholiday]

I read somewhere that TWM/NXWM's accountants have some odd ideas when it comes to depreciation and book value of their assets. That leads opthem to do strange things like take relatively modern buses out of service and store them for years instead of selling them straightaway, then when they do eventually sell them they're outdated and haven't moved for ages so they're pretty much worthless. Probably also explains why they kept the Metros going for so long as the rebuilds added to their book value or something.

 

Anyone remember that single-deck Fleetline (the 'Baseball Bat') they built? It wasn't an accident victim as you might think, but was done deliberately as they had too many double-deckers and needed more midibuses, so they thought they could save money by making one into the other. Eventually they figured out it was cheaper to just buy new Dennis Darts, but not before inflicting this bizarre conversion on Fleetline 6956. Happily it survives at Wythall and I've actually ridden on it.

West Midlands WDA 956T by Adam Floyd, on Flickr

They also spent a fortune on re-engining loads of MkI Leyland Nasties with Volvo engines, then withdrew them and used them as a hire fleet. New bean counter arrived, worked out storage costs were more than they were getting for the occasional hire and sold the lot. Mainly for scrap.

 

 

On the subject of Volvo engined MkIs, a conversation I had just after midnight one Saturday/Sunday morning went like this:

 

Ring, ring; ring,ring; err, yes

 

That National has just run out of diesel.

 

What?

 

Yep, it's stopped.

 

What, where, eh?

 

About 400 yards from the depot, in the bus stop before the narrow railway bridge.

 

How can it be diesel, you filled it this afternoon didn't you?

 

Fill it? Why?

 

A Volvo one will not do a full day, didn't somebody tell you?

 

Given it's run out of diesel obviously not.

 

Can you walk to the depot, fill a container, walk back, fill it, bleed it and get it going (I kid you not)?

 

You pay me as a driver, not a fitter.

 

What are you going to do then ?

 

Walk to the depot, get in my car and fuck off home. See you tomorrow afternoon.

 

What about the bus?

 

Don't worry, nobodies going to nick it.

 

How can you be sure?

 

It's run out of fucking diesel!!!!

[dollywobbler]

Weren't the Volvo-engined Nationals Your Bus? I seem to remember they were quite pleasant to travel on. Very gruff. I can't recall when Your Bus ended up getting dragged into WMT mind you.

[lisbon_road]

Leyland Nationals.  I'll just post this and go off quietly............

[Eyersey1234]

Sorry I'd forgotten about Carlyle

[Yoss]

If we're doing overall adverts of markets on buses have these of Southampton City Transport's 224.

It carried this for years, it even went for a repaint and came out still wearing it. Both bus and market long gone now of course. This was all hand painted, none of your fancy vinyl here, I doubt a vinyl printer big enough existed then.

 

A fine example of the signwriters art. Looking for these pictures reminded me just how many hand painted adverts we had, not just all over one's but some simple one's where I guess it was just cheaper and easier to get the signwriter to do it than get it printed. He obviously had a full time job down here. Another great art lost. I really should dig out some more.

 

 

Edit. Sorry printed same pic twice. The second one was meant to be this.

[catsinthewelder]

 

I've shamelessly stolen this pic from http://www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/picture/number12340.asp as I spotted it in town last night (about 20 feet from where it is here) and didn't get a photo amongst the crowds of people.  Sad to see the site might be closing soon.

[Inspector Morose]

 

[Inspector Morose]

[Inspector Morose]

[dollywobbler]

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Quiet revolution? Wow. Why had no-one thought of that before? 

[Guest Hooli]

5146E6B8-22E9-4B6F-B5B9-810CA203EFD5.jpeg

 

Bugger putting the passenger's luggage on that roofrack!

[Inspector Morose]

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Quite an achievement for someone to go out and build a trolleybus twelve years after the last abandonment of any system in the UK but South Yorkshire Transport went and did it anyway. Not only that, they built a test track alongside Doncaster racecourse for it to run on. This photo was taken at their depot on the opposite side of the road to the racecourse, not long after the experimentation had finished and the financial plug had been pulled on the whole project and so C45HDT was sitting there withdrawn having not carried a single passenger in public service on the streets of South Yorkshire.

Today the wires have long gone, the depot a distant memory but 2450 still exists as a testament to the days when companies (and people) used to say “ let’s see if we can do this...” instead of the all prevailing “this could be too risky/not make money” attitude that has infested our culture today.

[Felly Magic]

Last time I saw it, it was looking very forlorn at 'Scraptoft', I've seen a couple of dewirements there, they go with one hell of a bang. At Dudley after the doors shut, the pedestrian speed limits were totally ignored when I was there a few years back, enthusiastic driving was an understatement. It is looking likely that Dudsbry Bus Shed up in Yorkshire will have another bus return to the road in 2019, a Guy Arab/Roe, they really must have stocked up on green paint there. 

[Inspector Morose]

 

Discuss.

[Felly Magic]

Shame it wasn't saved, thankfully the WYPTE and WMPTE examples survive, Foden dipped their toe in to test the water and I think Dennis sort of scared them off with the Dominator, did this have a Maxwell box?

[Inspector Morose]

Oh, the sorry tale of the Foden NC...

Just before Foden was bought by Western Star, they looked again at the bus market. At the time Leyland had just about hoovered up all of the established players and were threatening the market with the Titan TN15 - a sort of double deck National for want of a better way of putting it. Foden had been a small player in the market before with their respected PVD6 front engined chassis along with small success with the PVR rear engined coach chassis (this was available with Fodens own two stroke).

It formed an alliance with Northern Counties who were, in turn, partially owned by G.M.P.T.E at the time. GMPTE were rather unhappy with the situation of a single supplier of their buses (Leyland) so was on the lookout for a supplier who could produce a robust and economical bus chassis that was simple to drive and maintain. And so Foden engineers set to work.

Well, the result was an interesting combination of good industry practice. Unfortunately it was the truck and heavy haulage industry which didn't quite translate into a definite runaway success in the bus industry. Let's start with the basics. The chassis was of bolted construction. This is a good thing. If bits of chassis get damaged or rotten they could simply be unbolted and replaced. Yes, on a truck that's something of a positive but when clothed in a bus body, those same bolts and chassis members become almost impossible to get at to replace. Add to this the insistence of Foden to use ordinary bolts instead of "sticky" ones meant that these bolts frequently became loose after hours of pounding along city streets. 

Then there was the mechanicals. Taken individually they were the best you could get for the job however combining them, and more importantly how Foden combined them, made the Foden NC one of the more "challenging" chassis to keep on the road. The engine was the tried and trusted Gardner 6LXB - a slow revving, high torque engine beloved by engineers and traffic managers around the country. This was to be mated to an Allison automatic gearbox. This gearbox had been used successfully by Foden in their heavy haul units and off road tippers so they knew it would both be robust and easy to drive. However the speed needed to drive the gearbox was in excess of what the Gardner could provide so between the two, a step up drive of Fodens own design was fitted. As this combination was to be fitted transversely across the back of the bus, another transfer box and angle drive was designed and fitted to turn the output 90 degrees to meet the rear axle. All of this complexity meant that the engine was mounted in an unusually high position in the rear of the bus. 

So it was the complexity that spelled the end of the project, right? Well, sort of. Foden was still in the period of the "we know best" school of engineering. Sadly they didn't as the two drive boxes were so woefully under-specified, they were a breakdown waiting to happen. The pièce de résistance was that all of the carrier bearings were plastic. Yeah, you heard me, plastic. Eight chassis were built and seven were bodied for service with various operators (one had an East Lancs body making it a Foden EL perhaps?) and one by one these Foden designed transfer boxed failed, usually, catastrophically. It's not to say that the design was without promise though for when it worked, it worked well. The drivers found it easy to drive and the accountants liked its economy but those drives, well. Derby even went to the trouble to re-engineer their Foden with a Voith gearbox making it very similar to a Dennis Dominator in driveline but even that was not enough to save it as it was scrapped after eighteen months.

The whole project finally died as a result of Foden being taken over by Western Star who had no want to enter the bus building business and so the whole project was rapidly put out of its misery. The complete buses lingered on until, one by one, their transmission exploded in a fit of gears, collapsed bearings and exasperated engineers and so were either sold on or scrapped. Two survive and have been restored by John Cherry of Aintree Coaches of Bootle as a testament of what could have been. Could it have been re-worked to become successful? Probably yes as it had all the makings of a good bus but was let down by the design details. Solving this (as Derby did) would have made the Foden into a respectable and reliable bus. 

[Felly Magic]

Allison autos do seem to need an engine that likes to rev, The old Dennis Detonator did become a thorn in Leyland's side, especially as Dennis were so completely flexible when it came to chassis spec, I remember SYPTE's ill fated trial of the Olympian, the hydracyclic box and brakes were simply not up to the task, and SYPTE loved the Voith box, with it's meaty retarder, the Atlanteans sound weird with the Voith screams and wheezes, Dennis welcomed the SYPTE orders with open arms, and even MCW got a chunk of Yorkshire cash. SYPTE at the time were a very forward thinking operator, and did quite a bit of innovating, kneeling Nationals, the South Yorkshire Step, bendy buses.....