Ethics of using shite as a daily....

[dieselnutjob]

An Audi 100 is a perfectly safe car if properly maintained.

Even in a modern car I tend to put my children in the back and I can't see much difference in safety in the back seat of a modern or an older car.

[scooters]

lets get back on topic.....

 

I have kids and I would not be happy driving them in a 1950's car with no belts etc..

 

Huge leaps were made in the late 1960s Volvo introduced the spool and the rear se4atbelt, Citroen was getting a reputation for clever crumple zones and steering columns that wouldn't sheesh kebob you in a crash. Most 1908s tin is pretty solid and by the time you get to the 1990s the vast majority of cars are now pretty safe.

 

Car makers however, know how important safety is in the mind of drivers and subsequently add all sorts of extra features, including driver free stopping systems. I for one am suspicious about anything that takes the control away from me...you show me a connector or and earth which won't degenerate and I might consider it.

 

A mate of mine is a senior fireman in Stirling, when I was driving the 940 he made a coment to me on how dangerous it was driving a car that was so lethal to others, ie it would go through other cars in a crash. I told him that whilst I took his point and he no doubt saw some pretty nasty incidents, at the end of the day the best form of road saftey is not to get into a crash in the first place. I have old you the story before of how I saw the police crash store in Lutterworth and looked at some of the cars there. The chap who showed me them said that the best way to stop nasty crashes would be to show these wrecks on telly. I remember a BMW x5 which had gone under an HGV - pancaked, driver jellied. The bottom line being is that it doesn't really matter what you are driving, if you crash at 70+ you are in trouble.

 

the biggest change I had in driving when having kids was in my driving style, I am far more defensive and sensible and rarely speed, never in town. Driving some shite brings you back to what speed is really about, We are so insultated in modern cars. When I was 20 my dad insured me on his Westfield Sei - his mates were horrified but his theory was that learing to handle a car that will kill you if you crash it and which really shows you how fast 50+ really is would be a very good idea. He was right, the first time I lost control of it I got such a fright that I never did it again!

 

So maybe education is the best way forward, the lack of saftey videos on the telly is a trravesty these days, they just reinforce the message

[Rocket88]

Me; 1947 Austin 16. Him Toyota MR2. 16 into 2 does go [he pulled out of a side road in front of me], and 16 had a slightly bent bumper bracket, and the number plate was a bit dented.2is now doing sterling service as somebodies fridge, after it virtually snapped in half

Moral of the story? NCAP is ectremely "ahem" subjective.

[scooters]

Me; 1947 Austin 16. Him Toyota MR2. 16 into 2 does go [he pulled out of a side road in front of me], and 16 had a slightly bent bumper bracket, and the number plate was a bit dented.2is now doing sterling service as somebodies fridge, after it virtually snapped in half

Moral of the story? NCAP is ectremely "ahem" subjective.

 

 

lol - very good - 16s are made of left over battleship iron!

[dollywobbler]

No airbags? Kids are in the back so doesn't matter. No Side Impact Protection? Don't pull out in front of people. Your Audi DOES have inertia reel seatbelts (well, in the front at least) just not pre-tensioners. They're still effective. Should have massive crumple zones too. It's hardly a Mini is it?

 

It's a good point about moderns sometimes being more dangerous. Clamber into a modern Audi and witness just how much you're wrapped in plastic from the waist down. In a crash, even a fairly minor one, you'd be getting leg damage I reckon. Then there's the shite visibility, which makes it more likely that you'll crash anyway...

 

Saying 'take the bus' is an interesting one. I do drive school kids around in a minibus. It doesn't have airbags for every seat, pre-tensioners or any of that jazz. I tell you what though - I drive bloody carefully!

[warren t claim]

I know I'm leaving myself open to OMG HYSTERIA but I used to take the former MRS_CLAIMS 7 year old on the back of my motorbike. Obviously I used to ensure that they wore the right protective clothing and their feet could reach the pegs. It certainly polarised the opinions of passers by, some thought it was cute while the next door neighbour reported me to the police and social services (who thought it was fine and legal).

[scooters]

I know I'm leaving myself open to OMG HYSTERIA but I used to take the former MRS_CLAIMS 7 year old on the back of my motorbike. Obviously I used to ensure that they wore the right protective clothing and their feet could reach the pegs. It certainly polarised the opinions of passers by, some thought it was cute while the next door neighbour reported me to the police and social services (who thought it was fine and legal).

 

 

OMG!!!!!!

 

 

 

forgot to add that my uncle took my wee cousin to Le Mans and back on the back of his Suzuki 600 - he's a hulking great infantry officer these days - but at the time he was only 9 and totally loved it -

 

as a parent the one thing that pisses you off more than anything else is being told how to bring up your kids..life is, by default, dangerous and everything you do is a risk calculation....don't get me started about bloodynanny states!...rant....moan...rant

[Magnificent Rustbucket]

lets get back on topic.....

 

I have kids and I would not be happy driving them in a 1950's car with no belts etc..

 

Huge leaps were made in the late 1960s Volvo introduced the spool and the rear se4atbelt, Citroen was getting a reputation for clever crumple zones and steering columns that wouldn't sheesh kebob you in a crash. Most 1908s tin is pretty solid and by the time you get to the 1990s the vast majority of cars are now pretty safe.

 

Car makers however, know how important safety is in the mind of drivers and subsequently add all sorts of extra features, including driver free stopping systems. I for one am suspicious about anything that takes the control away from me...you show me a connector or and earth which won't degenerate and I might consider it.

 

A mate of mine is a senior fireman in Stirling, when I was driving the 940 he made a coment to me on how dangerous it was driving a car that was so lethal to others, ie it would go through other cars in a crash. I told him that whilst I took his point and he no doubt saw some pretty nasty incidents, at the end of the day the best form of road saftey is not to get into a crash in the first place. I have old you the story before of how I saw the police crash store in Lutterworth and looked at some of the cars there. The chap who showed me them said that the best way to stop nasty crashes would be to show these wrecks on telly. I remember a BMW x5 which had gone under an HGV - pancaked, driver jellied. The bottom line being is that it doesn't really matter what you are driving, if you crash at 70+ you are in trouble.

 

the biggest change I had in driving when having kids was in my driving style, I am far more defensive and sensible and rarely speed, never in town. Driving some shite brings you back to what speed is really about, We are so insultated in modern cars. When I was 20 my dad insured me on his Westfield Sei - his mates were horrified but his theory was that learing to handle a car that will kill you if you crash it and which really shows you how fast 50+ really is would be a very good idea. He was right, the first time I lost control of it I got such a fright that I never did it again!

 

So maybe education is the best way forward, the lack of saftey videos on the telly is a trravesty these days, they just reinforce the message

 

I understand what you're saying Lankytim. I have no children of my own but I do sometimes drive with my two nieces (2 and 3 years old) in the car and the responsibility weighs heavily.

 

Scooters makes a valid point: it is not as simple as old car bad, new car good. The progression to greater safety was gradual over many years and cars are no more equal in their safety than they are in performance. An '80s Audi will be a better safety prospect than for example an Austin Metro from the same era. It will be less safe than the latest Audi.

 

The British Government used to publish car safety statistics at one time. These will be affected by the way cars are driven (a Volvo 740 is likely to be driven more carefully than a Subaru Impreza)

but from these the safest 1980s/early 1990s cars were the 'S' Class Mercedes, the Mercedes W124 'E' Class and the Jaguar XJ40. All three were significantly better than other cars IIRC and were much better than any Volvo of that time. That W140 recommendation might be a good one!! (They feel like a Panzer though, and can lead you to drive accordingly...)

 

Here is an XJ40 crushing a Ford Cortina Estate. Not nice.

 

[Justin Case]

The ideal solution to transporting the little ones:

 

 

* You may need to find your own governess first, though

[worldofceri]

I used to take the former MRS_CLAIMS 7 year old on the back of my motorbike. Obviously I used to ensure that they wore the right protective clothing and their feet could reach the pegs.

 

And in so doing you were teaching him/her the correct attitude to safety.

 

Next time it's a sunny Sunday afternoon check out all the families taking the kids out for a bike ride. Best one is when Mum and Dad are wearing cycle helmets but the kids aren't. The antithesis of leading by example. And about 1000% less responsible than letting them ride around in the back of an old car.

[andrew e]

Lanky Tim just stick 15 OMG BABY ON BOARD yellow idiot badges on the windows. INSTANT SAFETY.

 

I think education is the key: my 10 & 12 year old girls know that if they are walking home from school (or even in the car) certain marques and accesories = ROAD CHAOS. For example the following will normally indicate, no signalling, filthy steamed windows, bald chinese tyres on 15 psi, presence of oil warning lamp permantly on, wearing a hat or thick gloves:

 

Corsa (any)

Ka

Convertible with roof fixed upright, but windows down

Peugeot CC (any)

Anything with a yellow square in the window

Anything with fury pink steering wheel

Presence of Powered by fairy dust sticker

[gtd2000]

Safety is to Volvo as Reliability is to Volkswagen

 

i.e. it's all marketing bollocks

[Albert Ross]

I just thought of another MAJOR reason I drive shite. I can't afford more than one car on the chip. I can't really afford that one to be honest, it's a luxury, but I insist the Wife has a car that starts, drives, protects (If some knobber in a Saxo decides to have an off day), stays clean inside etc, because my choice just wouldn't do ALL of those things. So I drive shite because I'm mostly skint/tight. I have two cars on the "drive" that cost me less than £150 between them. One day they will live again. Hopefully.

[dieselnutjob]

my wife drives round in a dented eleven year old 806

it has a front airbag and all the tyres/steering/brakes/ABS work

I think my kids are pretty safe in it

[Rocket88]

I don't care how many airbags /anti-lock this that and the others you have, the simple laws of physics state that big heavy things make mincemeat out of smaller things. Drive something big, old and heavy in a sensible fashion, and you'll be fine. Let's face it, if you have a bit of an incident at much above 50 mph. it's going to be down to luck wether you get out of it in one piece, regardless of how "safe" your Mk37 Mingebag GLXIOMG is perceived to be.

I'd rather hit something [and I have] in something old and heavy than something modern and small, regardless of how many safety features the modern car has. The fireman who critised the Volvo for being "a danger to other road users" is talking bollocks. It's the driver, not the car that's the danger, and if you drive something "modern" in a stupid fashion, and happen to pick on a chunky old relic, tough shit..

[Formula Autos]

A case of swings and roundabouts?

 

The Audi will probably have slimmer pillars and better visibility than a modern, will no doubt be lighter (and therefore will have built up less momentum that has to be dissipated in a crash) and, for an oldish car, likely to have its passenger cell pretty much intact as they were strongly built (possibly even galved) in the first place. A well maintained and rust-free Audi shouldn't be too bad overall in terms of safety.

 

However, as others have mentioned, moderns have advantages too.

 

If I were you I'd keep the Audi in tip-top nick mechanically, to keep my conscience clear.

 

And continue to use it.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

 

I can't understand why I can't get the imageshack thing to work.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/25 ... 01vg4.jpg/

 

 

Not sure whether this is your model or the next one, but it's pretty much the best-protected car of that era.

[seth]

I'd rather hit something [and I have] in something old and heavy than something modern and small,

 

The problem with this logic though is that modern small cars weigh so much. Modern pug 207 weighs over 1200kg, some specs are over 1300. Some of the 207 coupe cabriolets are approaching 1500kg. Current Mondeos are 1500-1600kg My "big old solid car" Morris Oxford weighs about 1120kg. So unless you are driving something old that is truly massive (perhaps yank-shite) the odds would be stacked against you having more inertia. In a minor shunt the old car might look to have come of better because the new one will crumple more but in a more serious crash you would be relying even more on the crumple zones of the new car to absorb energy, and when they reach the passenger cell I suspect you may as well be driving into a solid wall.

[Cavcraft]

Good point Seth and besides crumple zones there's also airbags and what not on modern cars.

 

I don't like taking my kids in cars with no seatbelts despite growing up in cars that didn't myself. Similary although very two faced considering some of the absolute old rubbish I used to (and still occasionally) drive I do really want my kids to have cars with crumple zones and airbags when they start driving and I'm not entirly sure my lad's 106 would stand up well in an accident.

[Rocket88]

[The problem with this logic though is that modern small cars weigh so much. Modern pug 207 weighs over 1200kg, some specs are over 1300. Some of the 207 coupe cabriolets are approaching 1500kg. Current Mondeos are 1500-1600kg My "big old solid car" Morris Oxford weighs about 1120kg. So unless you are driving something old that is truly massive (perhaps yank-shite) the odds would be stacked against you having more inertia. In a minor shunt the old car might look to have come of better because the new one will crumple more but in a more serious crash you would be relying even more on the crumple zones of the new car to absorb energy, and when they reach the passenger cell I suspect you may as well be driving into a solid wall.

 

Fair point,Seth. I'm not well versed enough in physics to know if there's any difference between old stuff that's heavy because the body / chassis is made out of bits of Ark Royal, or new stuff that's heavy because it's stuffed to the gills will electric windows, electric seats etc. I have had a couple of "incidents" in heavy old stuff , and found that the modern stuff has come off worse, both in terms of damage and injury. I think the worst type of accident is the one that occurs when you have no prior warning, and no chance to brace yourself. If some pillock comes out of a side road into your path, you're probably more "aware" than he is of impending unpleasantness, as he obviously has no idea you're there!

[seth]

I think the "heavy old car" view was certainly valid in the '80s when comparing '50s/'60s built hulks to the then tinny stuff which had none of the more modern additions.

 

Cavette. I'm totally with you on seat belts.

[Rocket88]

Interestingly enough, going back some years, a friend of mine insisted on buying his lad a Volvo 340 as a first car, as he thought it would be "safe". Unfortunately, it was such an ill handling old barge that he crashed it into a tree. He was fine, car was totalled. He said it proved his point, I said that if he'd been driving something that handled more predictably, he wouldn't have hit the tree in the first place.............

[Guest Leonard Hatred]

Or if he'd been driving more carefully.

 

Re: lardy modern cars. I still can't get over the 1700kg top spec Mk6 Astra

[gtd2000]

A. Heavy old car that does not crumple in a crash = occupants who absorb virtually the full force of impact

 

B. Heavish new car that crumples in a crash = occupants who absorb less force of the impact.

 

Drive sensibly/defensively and be aware of your surroundings - that's the best advice and drive what you like.

[Cavcraft]

An Astra that weighs 1700kgs? Jesus wept, that's crazy. Oh well, it'll do well in 18 months time when it gets weighed in I suppose

[Lankytim]

Incase anyone is wondering, my Audi 100 is the same shape as this one,

 

 

I think the later shape 100 and the early A6 is essentially based on this models platform though, so they are not totally dissimilar.

 

The "heavy old car" argument is a bit of a myth I think. Maybe at low speed you'd probably come off better, ripping the plastic bumper of a Quashqai or something but hit something solid going at any decent velocity such as a bridge parapet or a large tree and old cars can fold up terribly. Modern cars will still fold up, but they crumple in a safe way, leaving the passenger cell intact. Something like a 60's Vauxhall may only absorb some of the impact with the front end before the passenger cell starts to crush. Modern cars (i.e within the last 10 years) are safer than comparable ones from 30/40+ years ago in an accident. I'm not a scientist but I think its a fair statement to make.

[gtd2000]

I think half the trouble with people these days is that they feel safe in their vehicles and therefore are more inclined to drive like twats.

 

This feeling increases if you own a Range Rover or BMW X5 for some reason and drive like an even bigger twat...

 

I'm glad I started my motoring experience on 2 wheels (well not if you count sneaking dad's car out now and again of course) and have a healthy respect for driving and being vulnerable.

 

Over here in Florida (especially) it beggars belief how many people consider driving the car the secondary function when at the wheel......

[gtd2000]

I think half the trouble with people these days is that they feel safe in their vehicles and therefore are more inclined to drive like twats.

 

This feeling increases if you own a Range Rover or BMW X5 for some reason and drive like an even bigger twat...

 

I'm glad I started my motoring experience on 2 wheels (well not if you count sneaking dad's car out now and again of course) and have a healthy respect for driving and being vulnerable.

 

Over here in Florida (especially) it beggars belief how many people consider driving the car the secondary function when at the wheel......

[Guest Leonard Hatred]

An Astra that weighs 1700kgs? Jesus wept, that's crazy. Oh well, it'll do well in 18 months time when it gets weighed in I suppose

 

Here it is - http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Det ... eriv=45120

 

Even the 87bhp 1.4 base model weighs 1545kg. Grim.

[garethj]

I agree that modern cars are very much safer these days, but people do still die in them so it pays to be careful or incredibly lucky. I have 6 airbags and a rabbit’s foot to cover all the bases.