Ethics of using shite as a daily....

[Lankytim]

Every time I go out in the Audi with the family on board I get a pang of guilt. Ok, its pretty comfortable and (dare I say it) reliable, but it was built in 1986 and standards in safety have moved along since then. I do about 10k a year and take my daughter to and from nursery 3 days a week in it. Should I really be using a 1980s car for this role? Its no less safe than the day it rolled from the factory but I recon a collision with a any real speed and a modern insignia or similar would go though it like a meat cleaver.

 

Looking at the cheapo Volvo for sale over on RR I can see there isn't really any excuse not to have something modernish with airbags and a high level of occupant safety. I never really thought about this but since we started a family its something thats now always at the back of my mind when we hit the road. Old clunkers and modern classics are great fun, I love the Audi to bits- but is it irresponsible to trust one every day?

 

Any thoughts appreciated!

[garethj]

Short answer: No, it's fine. If you want to be safe, be a better driver. That'll protect you against dodgy lorry and bus drivers, not just car drivers.

 

When we first had kids I had no seatbelts in the back of my VW so they could experience the marvellous effect of sliding from one side to the other when cornering. I'd really prefer seat belts (and I later fitted them to the VW) but otherwise driving is my responsibility, not someone else's.

[Guest]

Sod em, they knew what they were getting into.

[Albert Ross]

OMG! Old car in "built like a crisp packet" shocker. ZZZZ. Get over it. I survived the 60s in my Dad's cars.

[Lankytim]

OMG! Old car in "built like a crisp packet" shocker. ZZZZ. Get over it. I survived the 60s in my Dad's cars.

 

True, but there are much better alternatives available now- back in the 60's all you had were Austin Cambridges and asbestos sandwiches for supper.

 

I don't have the figures to hand but I believe during the 60's there were a fraction of the cars on the road and many times the number of road deaths compared to today. This is all down to safer cars.

[Pete-M]

Howdis were pretty well regarded in their day for being safe, about the same as Saabs, Volvos, T34s etc.

 

I wouldn't be hitting anything hard at 90mph in it, but for round town duties it should be fine.

 

As for old cars, wasn't the old Landcrap rated as one of the toughest things known to the human race?

[scooters]

there's a lot more to car safety than just airbags and crumple zones. For instance, you know your Audi, you know i mechanically and you know it to be safe. I've driven 'new' cars that look the part and are death traps dud to failed components ie - brakes, steering, suspension and peddales on by unscrupulous traders to the ignorant who believe they are getting a safe car.

 

Best way not to get into an accident is to drive defensively and safely, assume everyone is a twat and ensure you know the mechanical conditon of you r vehicle.

 

i had the wife and the baby over to argyll in the Sherpa last weekend - The kid had the spare belt and Mrs S sat in the back. You just drive extra carefully

[sporty-shite]

I run the XR2 daily, with two kids in the back.

 

The way I see it, the safest car is one that doesn't get involved in an accident. I actually really resent this way of thinking, because it is both fuelled by, and helps fuel, the "new is best, old is dangerous" argument. We all know newer cars are safer in an accident, but we also know that makes people lazier and more complacent.

 

TBH, Tim, you're probably already in some of the safest shite around in the Audi. Additionally, you're an (ex) professional driver, so you know how to drive safely.

 

My conclusion: drive shite, drive safe.

[CreepingJesus]

All this safety omgzzzz malarkey sticks in my craw anyway. From the moment your shiny new rotbox leaves the production line, it's gradually degrading. So, some time down the line, when some xxxx (insert bogeyman here) goes over the top of a roundabout, just to hit you; what's going to happen? The manufacturer doesn't know. I don't know, in fact no-one does.

Is it going to save you from that particular accident? Dunno.

If all the eleventy zillion airbags go off, and turn your rotbox into an internal bouncy castle, will it protect you? Dunno.

Will the door bars be 100% as strong as they were, or even 75%? Dunno.

Will the crumple zones work as predicted? Dunno.

People rely on this stuff too much. All that, and the advanced electronics, which do everything but drive for you.

Fact is, no-one can be 100% safe out there. Sad but true. All you can do, is treat your ton of metal as a lethal weapon, and assume that everyone else is an idiot. Do the IAM course, or at least read the Roadcraft thoroughly.

EuroNCAP is an emission of Satan's loins.

[Owain-328i]

If your that bothered about it, forget Volvo's etc, dint you see 5th gear crashin a 740 into a some tiny renault 'thing', the modern renault came out far far better.

 

The cheapest, safest car you can probably buy at the moment, is a w140 S class. Bismarck esq levels of toughness.

[worldofceri]

Don't forget that overall road death statistics will include pedestrians and motorcyclists in large numbers, so they can't be used to prove newer cars are safer.

 

Next time you're out and about just take a look at all the kids rolling around in the back of modern 'safer' cars without seatbelts. Or the parents leading them into the road without even looking, let alone bothering to teach 'em the Green Cross Code. You won't have to go far without spotting an example or this blood boilingly irresponsible behaviour.

 

I'm no statistician but I imagine driving a twenty year old car compared with a ten year old car means your sprogs are about 0.00001% more likely be maimed in a crash.

 

Carry on as you were.

[Lankytim]

It's true that prevention is much better than cure. Drive defensively, be aware of all of your surroundings and you'll be absolutely fine whatever you choose to drive. Shite is a lifestyle choice however Its not just me in the car anymore though! Which brings us back to my original point- Should I cart the family around in a car with no ABS, no airbags, no side impact bars when there are much safer alternatives about for not much money?

[revolting peasant]

[Guest]

I'm worried that you seem to value the lives of other people over your own!

 

My view about cars is that if I'm happy to drive them, they're good enough for any unfortunate passengers.

[scooters]

If your that bothered about it, forget Volvo's etc, dint you see 5th gear crashin a 740 into a some tiny renault 'thing', the modern renault came out far far better.

 

The cheapest, safest car you can probably buy at the moment, is a w140 S class. Bismarck esq levels of toughness.

 

5th gears amazing unsafe 740....well known pile of bollocks they cut through the front bulkhead and removed various bits so it collapsed.

 

Same car got driven off a cliff by Volvo during crash testing and the core cage survived with minor injuries to dummies.

 

I have walked away from a head on 60mph crash in a 240 with a bus with severe seat belt bruising but alive.

 

5th gear are full of it and that bearded bloke is a cunt. Mind you...I wouldn't kick vbh out of bed for farting

[Guest]

If your that bothered about it, forget Volvo's etc, dint you see 5th gear crashin a 740 into a some tiny renault 'thing', the modern renault came out far far better.

 

The cheapest, safest car you can probably buy at the moment, is a w140 S class. Bismarck esq levels of toughness.

 

I too read somewhere that 5th Gear's test was fixed so that the Modus came out on top - skulduggery along the lines of taking the Volvo's engine out.

 

There was an article written by Jay Leno recently, and in it he argued that his 1909 De Dion Bouton was the safest car in the world, because you daren't slack off for a second whilst driving it.

 

Incidentally, I'd take the late nineties spec VBH any time of the week.

[Lankytim]

The engine was definitely still in, you can see it after the crash with the rocker cover smashed off. I'm not aware of any modifications 5th gear made to the Volvo, as far as I know it was all above board, although there was alot of moaning about it on the Volvo forum!

 

The clip of the Volvo being driven off a cliff was an 850, not a 740- the 850 and later Volvos use a special steel (is it carbon steel?) in the passenger cell which makes them immensely strong.

[Richard]

Aren't annual road deaths starting to rise again?

 

I have avoided horrific leg injuries in my Volvo 940 by the simple tactic of not driving head-on into any Renault Modi. It's worked so far.

[Tayne]

.

[Guest]

The engine was definitely still in, you can see it after the crash with the rocker cover smashed off. I'm not aware of any modifications 5th gear made to the Volvo, as far as I know it was all above board, although there was alot of moaning about it on the Volvo forum!

 

Tim, the fucking VOC forum would whinge about the colour of orange juice if they felt it detracted from the essence of the original fruit. I'll have to watch the footage again.

 

I know of one Amazon that took out an X5 in a 20 mph offset collision. Both cars were mangled [and subsequent write-offs] but the Volvo managed to drive on to the recovery transporter. The BMW shat its battery and snapped a UJ in the prop. GOODBYE BASTARD WAG BLAG BOLLOCKS WAGON, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Justin Case]

I'm worried that you seem to value the lives of other people over your own!

 

My view about cars is that if I'm happy to drive them, they're good enough for any unfortunate passengers.

 

Spoken like a true non-child owner

 

Tim, if the little one(s) are in the back then they should be safer than the front seat passengers in a crash. A lot of the recent improvements have been more airbags for front seat passengers, (my four year old car has three airbags apiece for the front two seats but nothing for the rear) and making the ends more defrormable to reduce injuries to legs, feet etc, so children in properly fitted seats will probably be virtually as safe in your Audi as in a more modern car

[Cavcraft]

Trouble with a handful of modern car* drivers is that they think all these airbags and whatnot make them invincible and thus drive like twerps. When faced with the question you posed Tim it always reminds me of the time my wife's great aunty was rammed by some idot years back in her Morris 1,000. Her car flipped onto it's roof and was badly damaged, yet she got away without a mark on her and the firemen said had she been in a modern car she'd have quite probably copped for it.

 

Trouble is where your kids are concerned it's natural to want them as protected as possible as you won't get a more precious cargo. I suppose also it depends on what you call 'shite' as a daily. I'd certainly be more than happy drive a 1990's car as that era seemed to produce any number of reliable and safe runarounds. Volvos, Saabs, biggish saloons and estates should all fit your bill nicely enough.

Oh, and '+1' on the driving more safely yourself to avoid a lot of incidents and accidents.

 

*No, not all modern car drivers are idiots and there's nowt wrong with having a modern car.

[Lankytim]

Interesting split of opinions here, between parents and non-parents. They say that having a baby changes you. The different outlook on shite motoring must be an unexpected side-effect of parenthood!

 

I think, for the time being we'l be sticking with the Audi. Although its old its not so old that it doesn't have basic safety features such as inertia seatbelts and a collapsable steering column. It will always have size on its side too, there's alot of metal front and rear before any of the occupants become part of the crumple zone.

 

I think i'll also look into some IAM lessons- something which I hadn't thought about but is probably worth more than 5 NCAP stars!

[seth]

I'm never quite sure what to say in these sorts of threads as I'm sure there are people that think that what I do is "well wrong." At the end of the day its a personal choice. The fact that you can see both sides means you understand the issues involved.

 

Considering we walk Ickle_Seth to school and back everyday (a little over a mile each way) means that maybe we're not actually on the road at the most dangerous time? As worldofceri says, it is not at all unusual to see unrestrained kids being ferried about in cars that might well have been bought partly on safety issues.

[Craig the Princess]

Can I recomend a series Land Rover?

[garethj]

EDIT: Nothing to see here

[Rhythm Thief]

Slightly OT, but when I lived in the Middle East I remember seeing a lot of parents sitting unrestrained in the front seat toting one or more children on their laps. We used to call them "crunchy airbags".

[dieselnutjob]

GONE!

[garethj]

EDIT: Nothing to see here either

[Cavcraft]

Slightly OT but when I drove round industrial estates I remember seeing lots of parents sitting unrestrained in the front seats of Transit vans toting one or more children on their laps.

We used to call them 'pikey mingebags'.