Bought a lemon!

[M'coli]

Top work! Is it worth throwing a set of big ends at the bottom end and flogging it cheap?

[dollywobbler]

My MoT man says Seats are trouble, unlike Skodas and some other VW stuff. Small modern Audis bad too. Sell yer Seat and get a Golf - my TDi cost £270 40,000 miles ago and has needed just £16 spending on it (strut top mounts) beyond the usual tyre stuff and a set of front pads. Fitting a pair of front susp arms for the next test, they're £40.

 

Surely the engines are built in the same factory somewhere? Can't imagine the Seat factory is much more than an assembly plant.

[retrogeezer]

same engine/floorpans/drivetrain/parts/switchgear etc etc....MOT bloke is talking out of his arse..

[Rod/b]

same engine/floorpans/drivetrain/parts/switchgear etc etc....MOT bloke is talking out of his arse..

 

I'd have to agree. I had a Leon and a Toledo and they were both very good cars. The only problem we had with either was with the cambelt in the 1.4 Leon (kept shitting the bed every 30k miles) and when it started burning oil at 120k. That'll be the engine that arrives in a box from VW. They all do that sir, apparently.

 

Rear springs are different to Golf items though, which surprised me when I changed them.

[Mr Lobster]

....MOT bloke is talking out of his arse..

 

He certainly is. They all use the same components.

 

I've owned my Toledo for just over four years and its been an absolutely superb car. I've done about 50k miles in it and other than the usual service / consumable items the only thing to have gone wrong is an engine mount. I really can't fault it and don't know what I'd replace it with if I had to.

[Pillock]

Top work! Is it worth throwing a set of big ends at the bottom end and flogging it cheap?

 

I'm gonna take the sump off and take a peek for curiosity but to sell it as a whole engine it would want a head gasket, a cambelt since I've detensioned it, the DMF is scrap..... might as well just flog it in bits and weigh the bottom end in. I certainly wouldn't want to rebuild it and sell it as an "engine" without at least it starting.

[Cavcraft]

I bet you'd get decent (i.e a fair bit better than scrap) money if you advertise the complete engine or what's left of it.

 

Incidentally if you're keeping the car would it be worth changing to single mass (assuming there's a kit for this of course) to save any future problems?

[Pete-M]

I bet you'd get decent (i.e a fair bit better than scrap) money if you advertise the complete engine or what's left of it.

 

Incidentally if you're keeping the car would it be worth changing to single mass (assuming there's a kit for this of course) to save any future problems?

 

Speaking to a chap who works designing drivetrain bits a while ago who told me that the thing that kills DMFs is people sitting in neutral at the lights with their foot on the clutch. If you don't do that, they last reasonably well. If you don't, you can easily kill 'em in 50k.

 

Bad driving kills them the same way as it kills clutches. I've delivered more than a few brand new cars to people and they've run me to the station abusing the clutch to the extent the clutch stinks after a 5 mile trip. Not by being boy racers or teararsing about - just by riding the clutch constantly. The thing that gets me is they were all, allegedly, professional drivers, people who depend on their car for a living. Yet they couldn't bloody drive, and they were all completely oblivious to the stink of burning clutch plates.

[Richard]

That's how people drive though. If a part can't withstand real world driving conditions it isn't fit for purpose.

[Polystratus]

I was enjoying that video until i saw Albert's hairy arse crack, I don't think anyone needs to see that!.

 

Mind you he is quick, 34 seconds to change a engine is pretty impressive going i think.

 

 

Thankfully it's a quick shot ! Whose the engine lift belong too?

[Albert Ross]

It's a Clarke Strongarm. Not mine..... Iwish it was. Pillock borrowed it for the occasion. Excellent piece of kit that.

[mattblack]

It's a Clarke Strongarm. Not mine..... Iwish it was. Pillock borrowed it for the occasion. Excellent piece of kit that.

 

Glad it was of use... Albert you'd be welcome to borrow it anytime.

[red5]

That's how people drive though. If a part can't withstand real world driving conditions it isn't fit for purpose.

 

Seriously? if people can't operate a machine according to the instructions/method laid down by the Manufacturer then how is it not their fault? Lost count of how many clutches/DMF's I have seen destroyed by people who think they know better than the manufacturers. It's that mentality that sees folks driving @ 30 in 5th/6th gear and complaining fuel consumption is poor/it judders/won't pull up hills/[insertselfinflictedconcernhere].

 

Anyways, def worth advertising it I reckon.

[Albert Ross]

Well that's a tidy offer Sir! You may well find me taking you up on that. Good metal wheels too.

[Richard]

That's how people drive though. If a part can't withstand real world driving conditions it isn't fit for purpose.

 

Seriously? if people can't operate a machine according to the instructions/method laid down by the Manufacturer then how is it not their fault? Lost count of how many clutches/DMF's I have seen destroyed by people who think they know better than the manufacturers. It's that mentality that sees folks driving @ 30 in 5th/6th gear and complaining fuel consumption is poor/it judders/won't pull up hills/[insertselfinflictedconcernhere].

 

Seriously. The manufacturers know how people drive.

[Pillock]

Yes, how rude of me..... mattblack played an important part in the occasion with the very generous lendage of his crane. Much obliged fella!! It'll be winging it's way back soon

[Tayne]

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[red5]

It's that mentality that sees folks driving @ 30 in 5th/6th gear and complaining fuel consumption is poor/

 

Would you like to explain why my driving at 1200rpm in fourth around town will result in worse fuel consumption than doing higher rpms in third gear?

 

Torque.

 

Never mentioned 4th

[Tayne]

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[Pete-M]

I think it's because at 1200 rpm in sixth gear the engine is having to work against a load that it wouldn't be working against in, say, third or fourth. A gearbox is a torque multiplier, don't forget, and if you're in too high a gear at too low revs the engine has to work harder against the load than it would in the correct gear.

 

It's like riding a pushbike, if you're in top gear at walking pace it's easier to change down a few gears than to struggle, and you'll use less energy if you do so. 5th / 6th gears are for keeping momentum up rather than trying to accelerate from bugger all revs at walking pace.

[Tayne]

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[red5]

That's pretty much it - there is a point, which varies on engine type/design and so on, at below which torque produced falls off like a stone. As a rule of thumb (very general!), most recent-ish multivalve engines produce little or no 'useable' torque below 15-1600 rpm, so driving at that (engine) speed in any gear is going to produce higher fuel consumption . Basically drive at the start, or just past, the flattest part of the curve and the engine is working at it's most efficient = most torque produced for least fuel used.

 

Before the advent of extremely sophisticated Engine management systems most engine would have knocked/shuddered to the point of being unbearable at engine speeds so low down that they mostly stalled before they knocked the mains or big ends out. If you could see the throttle position readings at say 1200rpm ccompared to 1800rpm for example - the lower engine speed would normally require a larger opening - it's a this point the ECU takes over and adjusts fuelling to suit, and in the case of fly-by-wire, adjusts the throttle/pump as well.

[Tayne]

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[red5]

I've no idea what the torque curve looks like for the current VAG tdi engine (or even the V8 I used to own) but I know there's a certain point below which the engine won't pull.

 

2.0 Tdi 140ps? About 1750 rpm then. The older 8 valve 1.9's pull from about 1400/1500 upwards.

 

That point is the bit where the torque produced falls off - will see if I can find a plot somewhere.

[Tayne]

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[Pete-M]

1200rpm in fourth at 30mph and my car will pull away if I floor it.

 

If I go up into 5th the engine will be doing just under 1000rpm and will really struggle to do much if I floor it.

 

Is this what you mean?

 

Yup. At 1200 rpm . 30mph in 4th you'll be just on the bottom edge of the torque curve - basically where the engine is happy. In fifth it can't get into its happy zone so it'll vibrate like a bugger and put the DMF under loads of strain

 

VAG turdodiseasel stuff tends to produce useable torque from about 1200 rpm, and torque builds quickly until peaking at 1800-2200 rpm.

 

Most V8s (Rovers for example) do their big torque thing at around 2000 rpm, but because they're not turbocharged they have a much wider useable range.

 

Typical V8 torque curve

 

 

VAG TDi Torque curve (The first one google brought up)

 

[Tayne]

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[Pete-M]

Are you trying to tell me that there are people who drive around in 6th gear in town with the car juddering and believe its the fault of the car?

I could understand one or two muppets but is this a common complaint?

Is the standard of driving in this country that low?

 

Yup. Ok, I'm talking about cab drivers but the number of times I've been in cars with them and they've held the car on a hill just by slipping the clutch for a few minutes never fails to astound. These are normally the same drivers who complain about high fuel consumption and DMF failures.

 

On average in a 2.0TDi Skoda Superb I'll get 40 mpg in town and 50-55 mpg on the motorway. These guys are getting mid-high 20s in town, from the same car.

[red5]

Yes. And then complain when the DMF/clutch detonates.

 

Fairly common yes. The best way round used to be to take em on road test and demonstrate the huge improvement in peformance/economy available. If they had dash display ofc.

If not we'd put them in a demo with it and show them. Some STILL insist that it's better/more efficient just over tickover. Even though just because it can run that low it shouldn't necessarily be done. It's a by-product of anti-stall programming rather than a characteristic of the engine.

 

Unfortunately a lot of people see it as a criticism of their driving, rather than adapting to changing technology/engine types and reaping the benefits. Why on earth would you think a 1.4 Tdi Fiesta should be driven the same way as your mk3 Escort 1.8na? - that's the hard part.

 

Anyway, hijack over. Sorry.

[Tayne]

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